February '05 Book: Lord of the Flies

Oh yes, also...

to understand the lack of girls, you have to understand the lead-up to the book. It takes place during the bombings of England. Historically, during this time, boys that attended private schools (known as public schools in England.. weird, I know) were flown out of the country to avoid the dangers of remaining in the country. And yes, those schools were all-boy schools. Ironic, though, isn't it? That when they were flown out of the country it was to protect them? And look what happens...

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As many people seem to be mentioning girls in lord of the flies there is a book called "be nice" by Anabel donald which looks at what would happen if girls were shipwrecked on an island. There is also a very good television series called "uninhabited planet survive" or "mujiin wakusei survive" which also looks at human surval away from civilisation.

By the way does anyone else think it is strange that the boys are "saved" by the naval officer, but surely the society they are returning to is in ruins, possibly a worse state then the island due to the war? and the destruction of the atom bomb. I don't think they are really escaping human violence, but rather moving on to a more adult form of violence and destruction.

I definately agree that Simon is most likely a metaphor for Jesus as when he dies he is surrounded by glwing creatures that make a halo.

Is it symbollic that Piggy dies as the conch shatters, the conch was the first thing that brought the boys together and now lies in pieces parallel to their civilisation? Also surely the conch is a symboll of democracy and order, and Piggy seems to me to symbollise logic and intelligence, is it therefore a vital aspect of the plot that these things vanish together?

Hi!
I have a question about Lord of the flies context...
I don't know much about Bible context of this novel.
I know that Simon can be compared to Jesus, or Peter Simon, but why?
Please, help me because I need those information to write an essay...

Thank you :)

For example: Sparknotes
Try to google as well.

It was very depressing but it is one of the best books, I have ever read in my life.

I read it very quickly because I just couldn't find a spot to leave off at. It was scary to me the whole way through, having a son and working with school age kids, it was all just a bit too vivid for me to picture.

I am glad I read it, it was one of those books mentioned all the time that I had never gotten around to reading till this summer.

I love the novel, it's great! I read it twice now, it's very ashtonishing of what the boys can do and how they became savages. It describes very much of the human mind. And personally as a girl, I really liked the book, although i am not sure if the other girls will share the same thoughts that i do. The novel was very enjoyable and interesting..

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Originally Posted by pauline.m

Hi!
I have a question about Lord of the flies context...
I don't know much about Bible context of this novel.
I know that Simon can be compared to Jesus, or Peter Simon, but why?
Please, help me because I need those information to write an essay...

Thank you :)

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Simon does have a symbolic function but in the simplest sense we can see him as a character whose behaviour highlights the limitations of the other boys.

He provides a great contrast with Piggy who complains endlessly about his asthma and is always full of self-pity. Simon shows great eagerness to accompany Ralph and Jack on their survey of the island and his face glows when they become excited and have fun together. Open with his affections, he strokes Ralph’s arm shyly in a way that would perhaps embarrass the rest.

Simon is the only boy who is totally unselfish in his aims. The other main characters, Ralph, Jack and Piggy, are all intent, in their various ways, on establishing their dominance over the group. As a rift begins to grow between Ralph and Jack, the latter going hunting while most of the other boys bathe and play, it is Simon who helps Ralph with the shelters and also encourages him to assert himself for the common good. Simon is intuitive and very early has premonitions of things going wrong. When there is some discussion about the fears of the littluns, it is he who speaks of the island not being a good place and the other boys are astonished as they look at his serious face. He also mentions the “snake-thing”, something which everyone else is too nervous to do. Ralph feels that the younger boy’s remarks are thought-provoking and realises that Simon has given voice to feelings which he himself could not express. Even so, Ralph is unable really to understand Simon and speaks of him to Jack as “queer” and “funny”. Ralph also mistakes the brilliance of Simon’s eyes for mischief, not appreciating that it denotes his spiritual and visionary capacity.

Simon always has time for the littluns, picking fruit for them when they cannot reach it, and giving them the choicest. In contrast, most of the others either leave these young children to their own devices or tease them malevolently as Roger does when he kicks over their sand-castles or throws stones at Henry. Jack finds it amusing to suggest using a littlun as a “pretend” pig, and even Ralph, when he thinks that the beast is attacking in the night, hopes that it may prefer littluns.

Both Simon and Jack are fond of going alone into the jungle but, whereas Jack is preoccupied with hunting pigs and finds the forest “uncommunicative”, Simon goes to a quiet spot where he listens to the sounds of the island. He sits surrounded by “dark aromatic bushes” and, as the light fades, he sees the candle-buds open, “their wide, white flowers glimmering under the light”. These are the flowers which Jack had once slashed with his knife because they were useless as food and, as Simon partakes of a spiritual, religious experience in communion with nature, these “animal” interests of Jack and even the practical concerns of Ralph and Piggy seem almost trivial. Ralph has a desire for order and Piggy has knowledge but, without Simon’s spirituality, they are incomplete as persons.

lots of symbolism. i had to write a paper about it and i cant fit all of the symbols into my essay!
-pink symolizes innocence: golding starts the book calling EVERYTHING pink: the boys' thumbs, thighs, skin, the trees, the granite. as the book progresses, the color scheme tilts more towards brown (symbolizing LOSS of innocence). the longer the boys are on the island, the browner they become [aside from the all-holy simon, who is curiously refered to as 'tan' while the other boys are always called brown] In reference to hunting, jack says "They don't smell me. They see me, I think. Something pink, under the trees"
Also, the conch (representing, obviously, order and law) is always described as pink, but later in the book, golding describes how the pink fades to white(loss of innocence). before they set foot on it, castle is refered to as pink. later it is described as red, several times.

Piggy represents conscious and morality, or "the right thing".
piggy's specs represent ration, knowledge, and sensibility
"He wiped his glasses and adjusted them on his button nose. The frame had made a deep, PINK "V" on the bridge."
[rationing, knowledge, and sensibility lead to good morals, which gives people innocence]

-simon loves the little ones, just like jesus is known to have loved the children.
-if you remember in the bible, satan uses hunger, fear, and lonliness to try and tempt jesus into being "evil" in the desert. In golding's novel, the lord of the flies tempts simon and the boys on the "good side" in three ways also: man-hunts, war paint, and tribal dances.

-read some of luke in the bible, approximitley luke 22:15-30... it gives a religious take on the leading relationship of ralph and jack.

-the ocean and sea represent some sort of intangible area of "goodness". Both Simon and Piggy (the two characters other than ralph that were resistant to evil) are washed away into the sea after their deaths. Hope comes and goes in the form of ships in the ocean.


one thing, though, I can't figure out for the life of me. I KNOW the color green represents something by the way golding goes out of his way to include it in his descriptions. but what???

great book...:)... a shocking story of a conflict between the civilizing and the barbarian instinct that exists in all human beings...when you start reading it, you imagine this perfect Utopia, a magical Never-Never Land to dispose of it as you wish....but i think none of us could have imagined what was going to happen in the end...a great book that keeps your attention till the very last moment...

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Even though there is an absence of females in this book, that doesn't mean there is an absence of feminism. There is one character in particular that is the "female". He helps the littluns, is "weak", and relys on others. _____ (of course) is the mother!

Also, "ummyeah"s post is fairly accurate, although there is something I'd like to add to his conch shell with changing color. The pink sybolizes innocence, and as the story goes on, and as Jack takes over, the conch turns a whiteish color, and eventually breaks as Piggy dies. That scene is the final straw, when the conch breaks and Piggy dies is final "this is it" there is nothing to save them, its no-holds-bars after their innocence is gone and the evil inside each of them final takes over.

Also, the big fire on the mountain represents a sort of hearth and unity.

And the Naval officer at the end. It's Goldings way of saying "Yea? Guess what? A guy who is paid to kill people and who job it is to kill people ultimately saves Ralphs life." Ironic, no?

Overall, the book was good. The symbols were great, although Goldings writing style drove me nuts, it seemed like he had like 3 paragraphs of just describing the island, and 3 paragraphs of dialogue each chapter instead of intertwining them together, ya know?

We read this in our 10th grade English Honors class.

i watched a documentary a while back called "boys alone" or something to that effect which was basically acting out Lord of the Flies, but in a house. It was really interesting how the group dynamic evolved, there was the typical quiet, introverted one, the loud leader type, the pacifier, etc. There was actually a point where the camera men had to intervene because the boys started poking this hedgehog with a stick and it was cruelty to animals blah blah blah (rather reminiscent of jack and his tribe and their spears). Anyway.
The point is, i liked this book on a psycological/sociological level; it was interesting to observe the break down of civilisation and how the boys characters developed as they were forced to make choices way beyond their years in such a hostile and unfamiliar environment. You wonder whether if they has kept their "equalising" school uniforms, and respected the law and order symbolised by the conch such tragic events would have unfolded...If the boys had been girls i think it would have been a different story all together. Not wanting to seem stereotypical, but i think girls would have done more talking and discussing, so in a way, a sense of civillisation would have remained.
An interesting one...

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Originally Posted by bootlegger

Not wanting to seem stereotypical, but i think girls would have done more talking and discussing, so in a way, a sense of civillisation would have remained.
An interesting one...

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Girls would've just slowly but surely torn down each other's self esteem by catty, sarcastic remarks and exclusion, but at least there wouldn't be any blood. ;) The psychological scars would be deep but there'd be no physical evidence.

I haven't read every page in this discussion so forgive me if someone else has said this.

I think the reason why there are no girls on the island is because the island is a microcosm of the world. Ralph and Jack (and other characters like Piggy and Simon) represent the leaders of certain political groups or countries. Because there were few women leaders during the time the book was written, the kids on the island were all boys.

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And the Naval officer at the end. It's Goldings way of saying "Yea? Guess what? A guy who is paid to kill people and who job it is to kill people ultimately saves Ralphs life." Ironic, no?

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Yes, it is ironic. What's even more ironic is the boys weren't even saved. The boys nearly destroyed the island when they started a fire and they were bound to destroy themselves anyway when you see their actions by the end of the book. As I said earlier, I believe that the island is really just a small version of the world itself. Remember at the beginning of the book when Piggy says "Did you hear what the pilot said? About the nuclear bombs? They're all dead," and then continues to say that there were no grownups anywhere. There are only two possibilities for that: World War 2 or some other war.The book was written in the fifties so I think World War 2 is out. The only other thing happening where nukes were a risk was the Cold War. I think this book takes place in a time when nuclear bombs had taken out most of the planet.

Now, back to where I said the boys weren't really rescued. That's because they were rescued by a naval ship - something that is designed to kill other people. The boys were taken from one war on a small island to a full-scale war all around the world. It's the same situation with a different location. Hardly a rescue if you ask me.

hey.. id just like to say that the point of the story is the degeneration of civilised to savage.. i think yoos are readin in to it too much.. but i think ther reelly good points like about simon being like jesus, but william golding wrote the book to express his feeling towards human nature.