The Cedars incident was his first love? The moment that changed his life forever, as he said? His first introduction to the life of wealth and leisure? The beginning of his escape from his own poor background? His 'coming of age' passage?
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The Cedars incident was his first love? The moment that changed his life forever, as he said? His first introduction to the life of wealth and leisure? The beginning of his escape from his own poor background? His 'coming of age' passage?
No climax!? Max's acceptance of self is quite an achievement in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Groundwork. That was the beginning of Max's attempt to define himself by something other than his own disjointed, poor family. Plus I think Max always wondered if he'd missed out on the 'love of his life' when Chloe died. So really it was a comparative study of Chloe and Anna for him.Quote:
What in heaven's name does the Chloe part of the story have to do with Anna's death?
Myles only followed Chloe, as for her, her anger at Rose and the affair was so strong...remember just before they walked into the sea she'd half heartedly started something with Max? [her inclusion of Myles was rather startling] It was all rebellion against her mother and Rose.Quote:
Why in heaven's name does Chloe and a Myles go for that swim and you know what happens?
Hormones. Adolescent male. :rolleyes: I can't remember right now, and can't seem to find the passage I want, but I think he just became disillusioned with Mrs. Grace.Quote:
Why is Max so in love with Mrs Grace and then it gets dropped?
I did find something I'd like to bring out though regarding Max's frame of mind...page 143
[bolding mine]Quote:
These days I must take the world in small and carefully measured doses, it is a sort of homeopathic cure I am undergoing, though I am not certain what this cure is meant to mend. Perhaps I am learning to live amongst the living again. Practicing, I mean. But no, that is not it. Being here is just a way of not being anywhere.
A little explanation for those not familiar with homeopathy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
Pertinent bit from link.
That's why Max went back to the scene.Quote:
Homeopathic practitioners maintain that an ill person can be treated using a substance that can produce, in a healthy person, symptoms similar to those of the illness.
Yeah, I'll buy that. But did you see a connection with his life with Anna? It seems like there are linking passages that Banville doesn't include. And why does Banville spend so much time describing Col Blunder (sp? I can't remember his name exactly and I don't have the book handy)? And still, the surprise of Rose and her affair (and I still don't understand what that has to do with the drownings) and the surprise of Miss Vavasour at the end is just too much for me. I have to question Banville's arrangement of episodes. A writer can juggle episodes in time, but there still has to be a trajectory of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter
Foundation. We have to know what the past was before we can understand his life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It's Colonel Blunden. After all it is a rooming house now, would you have Max the only resident? Then it could be said to be unrealistic, because after all, what rooming house has only one tenant?
I thought the bit about Miss Vavasour at the end tied up the questions of her affair with Mrs. Grace beautifully, she was paid off after all.
THIS POST IS ALL SPOILER
This may be overkill for the current discussion, but these are my notes that trace Max Morden's state of mind in the novel, as well as I am able, and also the trajectory of the story when it is straightened out in time.
In his childhood at Ballyless
p25 And my life is changed forever.
p79 Chloe, Myles and I. How proud I was to be seen with them, these divinities, for I thought of course that they were the gods.
p79 My former friends were resentful "He spends all his time now with his grand new friends."
Marriage to Anna
p76 Charlie was a crook.
p76 Anna invited me to marry her
p77 The wedding party was held under a striped marquee
p79 Charlies died a few months after we were married. Anna got all his money . . . there was a lot.
Anna is diagnosed
p12 Well doctor is it the death sentence, or do I get life?
p15 It was not supposed to have befallen us, We are not that kind of people.
p17 From this day forward, all would be dissembling. There would be no other way to live with death.
Anna dying
p114 We shut ourselves away in our house by the sea.
p115 She was in the nursing home by then
Anna dies
p177 I have stopped time. And she nodded, a solemn, knowing nod, and smiled too. I would swear it was a smile.
p195 just another of the worlds great shrugs of indifference
p195 I felt as if I were walking into the sea.
Deciding to go to the Cedars
p18 A dream it was that drew me here.
p19 The journey did not end, I arrived nowhere, and nothing happened
p19 I awoke with the conviction that something had been achieved, or at least initiated.
p19 It endured less than a minute that happy lightness but it told me where I must go.
p111 You're mad Claire had said you'll die of boredom there.
p111 "Then come and live with me, there's room enough for two."
p111 Live with her! Room for two! I said no, I wished to be on my own.
p111 I do not want solicitude. I want anger, vituperation, violence
Driving past the Cedars with his daughter Claire
p44 "You live in the past" she said.
p44 I was about to give an abrupt reply, but paused. She was right after all.
p45 I saw myself as something of a bucaneer . . . but now I. . . acknowledge this was a delusion
p45 To be concealed, protected, guarded, that is all I have ever wanted, to burrow down into a place of womby warmth and cower there.. . .That is why the past is such a retreat for me.
p50 When we got home I went straight into the house . . . and telephoned Ms Vavasour
On arriving at the Cedars
p95 When I first came here I thought of growing a beard
p97 I see the black ship in the distance . . . I hear your siren song . . I am there almost there.
On arriving at the Cedars
p111 Was it all a hideous mistake [going there]?
p116 Would you like to see your room now? Miss Vavasour asked
p117 When Miss vavasour left me in what was now to be my room . . . I felt that I had been traveling a long time, for years, and had at last arrived at the destination to where, all along, without knowing it, I had been bound, and where I must stay, it being for now, the only possible place, the only refuge, for me.
While at the Cedars
p30 The work I am supposed to be engaged in is a monograph on bonnard.
p30 Work is not the word I would apply to what I do. Workers work.
p30 Dabble I do not accept. We are nothing if not professional
While at the Cedars
p69 I wonder if other people when they were children had this kind of image of what they would be like when they grew up . . . from the outset I was very precise and definite in my expectations
p69 This is exactly how I would have foreseen seen my future self, a man of liesurely interests and scant ambition sitting in a room just like this one, in my sea-captain's chair, leaning at my little table . . . yes this is what I thought adulthood would be.
While at the Cedars
p145 what the whole house reminds me of . . .
p145 this must be the real reason I came here to hide in the first place . . .
p145 . . . the rented rooms my mother and I were forced to inhabit through my teenage years
While at the Cedars
p159 I was thinking of Anna
p159 what I found in Anna was a way of fulfilling the fantasy of myself.
p160 From earliest days I wanted to be someone else.
p160 Be anyone you like. That was the pact we made . . .
p160 . . . that we would relieve each other of being the people whom everyone else told us we were
p160 The question I am left with now anyway is precisely the question of knowing
p160 Who if not myself was I? (THE QUESTION - Part 1)
p161 . . . . we forgave each other for all that we were not.
p161 Could I have lived differently? Fruitless interrogation. (THE QUESTION - Part 2)
p161 yet for all that, I cannot rid myself of the conviction that we missed something. (THE RUB)
While at the Cedars
p.182 I do not want to be alone like this
p183 Why this silence day after day
p183 Send back your ghost
Night out getting drunk
p186 I fell into a mood of bitter melancholy
p187 under the shaking radiance of a street light awaiting some grand and general revelation
After he's back from getting drunk
p183 Ms Vavasour knows the questions I want to ask
p183 Ms Vavasour says "I can't help you...You must know that"
p183 All this in the historic present.
Daughter comes to take him home
p191 I must packup and leave the Cedars forthwith.
p191 I had not the heart to tell her my book had not gotten further than half a first chapter.
p192 Well it is no matter. there are other things I can do. I can go to Paris and paint.
p192 I can see myself in my cell, long-bearded with quill pen and hat and docile lion, through a window beside me minuscule pesants making hay, and hovering above my brow the dove refulgent.
p.192 Oh yes, life is pregnant with possibilities.
I'm not denying there wasn't a climax, I'm denying that there was a relavant building to it. I didn't see it. I probably should re-read it. I just don't know if it's worth my while.Quote:
Originally Posted by plainjane
Wait a second. Chloe is what ten years old? How is it credible that a love at ten who he knew for a summer compares to someone who he has been married to for decades?Quote:
Groundwork. That was the beginning of Max's attempt to define himself by something other than his own disjointed, poor family. Plus I think Max always wondered if he'd missed out on the 'love of his life' when Chloe died. So really it was a comparative study of Chloe and Anna for him.
It's not clear to me that she drowns on purpose. And if so, she drowns herself because she fought with Rose?Quote:
Myles only followed Chloe, as for her, her anger at Rose and the affair was so strong...remember just before they walked into the sea she'd half heartedly started something with Max? [her inclusion of Myles was rather startling] It was all rebellion against her mother and Rose.
:lol: I know that. I just don't understand why he makes such a big deal, spends pages on it, only for it to be a side show. I'm not questioning Max's hormones; I'm questioning Banville's selection for emphasis.Quote:
Hormones. Adolescent male. :rolleyes: I can't remember right now, and can't seem to find the passage I want, but I think he just became disillusioned with Mrs. Grace.
That is a good connection.Quote:
I did find something I'd like to bring out though regarding Max's frame of mind...page 143
[bolding mine]
A little explanation for those not familiar with homeopathy...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
Pertinent bit from link.
That's why Max went back to the scene
But Banville spends pages describing Col Blunden which lead to no point.Quote:
Originally Posted by plainjane
Walter, that is perfect! :D
One of the stages of grief. Well brought out.Quote:
p111 I do not want solicitude. I want anger, vituperation, violence
Virgil, you say...What point would you have it lead to other than what I said in my previous post? Was he supposed to murder someone? Should he be a long lost resident of Max's past? Really if you think about it, it was hinted throughout the book that he and Ms. V would 'get together', obviously a ridiculous thought considering her sexual proclivity.Quote:
But Banville spends pages describing Col Blunden which lead to no point.
Without understanding Max's past the climax would have meant nothing, we had to understand why Max returned, why he felt he lacked a personality and why Anna was so very important to his sense of self.Quote:
I'm not denying there wasn't a climax, I'm denying that there was a relavant building to it. I didn't see it. I probably should re-read it. I just don't know if it's worth my while.
In reality it doesn't, otoh, in the back of Max's mind I feel he always wondered if Chloe was the lost love of his life. It's not unusual for someone of a certain age to wonder what they've missed out on in life, éh? :)Quote:
Wait a second. Chloe is what ten years old? How is it credible that a love at ten who he knew for a summer compares to someone who he has been married to for decades?
I believe the emphasis is so strong because it was Max's first time feeling that way.Quote:
I know that. I just don't understand why he makes such a big deal, spends pages on it, only for it to be a side show. I'm not questioning Max's hormones; I'm questioning Banville's selection for emphasis.
Perhaps Col. Blunden is there to present subliminally the external view of a strong silent man who keeps it all inside himself and swallows huge disappointment without great external show. In effect, he may be the exterior view of what Max Morden looks like all the while that his own inner life is actually in such turmoil. Max, in first person, can't quite tell us what he himself looks like from the outside, but he can tell us what col. Blunden looks like. Just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, I accidentally skipped this quote of yours...Chloe was a most deliberate and passionate child person, she did nothing 'by accident'. I would like to know what was said when they argued at the seaside just before the twins death. I speculate, mind you this is only speculation considering the Banville/Nabokov connection...I speculate that Chloe had feelings for Rose herself, and this was perhaps a quarrel about that considering Max had just told Chloe about the affair he thought was taking place. Chloe felt betrayed and was perhaps sexually confused...I'm just not sure which way that fell.Quote:
It's not clear to me that she drowns on purpose. And if so, she drowns herself because she fought with Rose?
Chloe felt betrayed somehow, that much I am certain of, just how I am not sure at this point.
AIE: Now that I think about it, Chloe's rather desperate attempt to engage with Max sexually just before hand could have been to try to feel something with a boy? As opposed to her [possible] feelings for Rose?
I like that. Blunden was all of that, the exact opposite of Max internally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter
Well, that's all speculation. I didn't read anything to suggest that. How old is Chloe? I frankly don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by plainjane
That's a very puzzling event.
I have the feeling that the sea has something like a mystic significance for this story, possibly also underlying its choice as a title. The story opens with the stange high tide, and it ends with Max feeling as if he 'were walking into the sea' when he reenters the hopsital after his wife dies. Moreover Myles has webbed toes (fingers?) suggesting a sea creature to me, and Myles and Chloe were exceedingly close as twins -- even communicating without hardly speaking if I recall.
Chloe had just gotten angry at Rose for intruding on herself and young Max in embrace, and had stomped off to sulk on the beach where she was joined by Myles, seemingly commiserating by sitting shoulder to shoulder with her. It read to me as if, unspoken, they agreed 'enough of this' and decided to end their land-based frustrations in the sea, their 'natural' domain. That is all speculation, but that's how the body language came across to me.
Separately I think the episode also served a literary purpose, to show how passive a person Max really was. He was a good swimmer, but he stood immobile, instead of perhaps charging into the waves to at least attempt to help Myles and Chloe. The passive response of almost everybody else involved also stands out starkly. There was little commotion even among the Graces when Max brought the news. So there was something strange, but definitely different, about the whole episode, as if to suggest a symbolic or mystic significance beyond the mere happening. And that, also, is just my subjective reaction to what I read.
I might add that it provides a close parallel, to Max's later marriage to his wife. Both of the loves of max's life were with women better off than he was, and both came to untimely ends for reasons beyond his contol. That is literary parallelism whose significance is hard for me to see, but it is there.
page 22 - 23...Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Speculation? Perhaps 'tis, but based on facts.Quote:
What age were we, ten, eleven? Say eleven, it will do.
Chloe was a passionate individual, her tastes were well formed and definite. on pages 168-171 Max climbs the tree and overhears Rose and Mrs. Grace speaking together and comes to the erroneous conclusion that Rose is having an affair with Mr. Grace but at the end learns that it was in fact Mrs. Grace that was having the affair with Rose.
Max couldn't stand keeping it to himself and immediately told Chloe about the affair he thought he knew about, page 172. Chloe was skeptical, even to the point of annoyance. Max thought she was annoyed with him, but here supposition enters...suppose she was annoyed with Rose, or she could have been annoyed with Max as well for being the bearer of bad news. We, like Max at the time have no knowledge of what did or didn't go on between Rose and Chloe.
At the bottom of page 173 through to 174...
He didn't know at the time what Rose's secret passion was did he. Fact, not supposition.Quote:
Strangely, though, it was not Chloe whose power was thus increased over Rose, but the contrary, or so it seemed. The governess's eye had a new and steelier light when it fell on the girl now, and the girl, to my surprise and puzzlement, appeared cowed under that look as she had never been before. When I think of them like that, the one glinting, the other shying, I cannot but speculate that what happened on the day of the strange tide was in some way a consequence of the uncovering of Rose's secret passion.
Walter, I like your thoughts on the meanings of the Sea, it makes sense to me.That bowled me over! Not to even make the smallest attempt was just beyond the pale.Quote:
Separately I think the episode also served a literary purpose, to show how passive a person Max really was. He was a good swimmer, but he stood immobile, instead of perhaps charging into the waves to at least attempt to help Myles and Chloe. The passive response of almost everybody else involved also stands out starkly.
But it's true, Max let life happen to him, rather that attempting to guide events, even down to the end when he gave in to Claire's entreaties to live with her, which frankly I think was a good thing for him. That way he gets to keep living the life he wants to.
I am not a fan of this book and reading all your posts has been very interesting; thank you, all! :)
I did not think that Chloe might have a crush on Rose (which is an intriguing suggestion but I will echo Virgil's doubts... These children are supposed to 11 - 12?). To me, even though it seemed unnecessary and meaningless, the twin's act was a kind of reaction to the realisation that their parents (whichever one they might have thought that was having an affair) were not "theirs" purely and also to the fact that Rose, towards whom they were contemptuous throughout the book, turned out to have a great influence on their parents - the kind of influence they could not compete with.
I don't think the twins cared much for Max himself either; both Rose `and Max seemed to mere "play things" for them; to tease and make fun of at times and discard when fancy took them.
Isn't it interesting that the survivors of the story are Rose and Max, who are the ones without a "class"?
There is an element of mystery to the sea, and it is a multifacet symbol. I do think the central meaning of the sea is death. And perhaps that's what is so mysterious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter
Virgil, That is a new allusion to me and one I shall definitely keep in mind. In the book it certainly has that ominous overtone. Many thanks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil