February / Italy Reading: The Name of the Rose

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Originally Posted by bazarov

I am so sorry that I had to miss this discussion :( Stupid exams!

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you can still join in baz!

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I have just recently started reading The Name of the Rose Umberto Eco, and there is one thing which I could not help but to notice. I am currently nearly finnished with Day One, After Nones, and they were descirbing what the illuminations of the monk Adelmo and I found that there seemed to be a strong resemblence between the works of Adelmo, and the art work of Dutch painter Hieronymus Bosch.

A collection of his works can be seen here:

http://www.abcgallery.com/B/bosch/bosch.html

I found this similiarity to be quite currious and was wondering if it was just a pure conincidence of if perhaps there was something more behind it then that.

Though the book is set in the 1300's and Bosh painted in the late 1400's to early 1500's, he was a relgious man but I cannot find any real connection between him and the story. His style of painting was quite unique and still is.

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When they were discribing the illustrations of Adelmo, i was put in mind of the likes of the book of kells and all the zoomorphic images of christian ireland pre 1000 ad and the viking period. Those types of images were used widely in religous books, esp around the time that the book is set.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Oh I'm going to post something on the marginalia. It is an interesting phenomena from the middle ages. I can't right now. But what makes an interesting comparison with the marginalia is the description of the art on the church door that Adso notices. Compare the church door art (which Eco goes on for about six pages) and the maginalia (which Eco goes on for about four pages). Such extended descriptions carry significance.

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Sounds interesting, it is interesting the detail that is put into the descriptions of the artwork within the story. And there are perhaps some similarities between the art of the door and that of the maginalia, as Adso, mentions the frightening creatures upon the door, and talks of the angles in which the animals are twisted seeming somewhat remisent of the distortations that are discussed in the maginalia.

What? You folks are discussing Eco? Where have I been this fortnight?

Well, here it goes. I found a used copy of The Name of the Rose in a second-hand book shop in, of all the places, Pakistan. This was back in 1995. I finished it in two days (keep in mind that I am an extremely slowwwwww reader!) I was fascinated. The book was written in early 80s, the golden age of Post-structuralism and I was reading Madan Sarap on the subject at the same time. These two books were meant to change my destiny. I did research on Eco, his place among the contemporary Italian academics and his specialty, semiotics. This brought me in touch with Barthes, Joyce (Eco is a Joyce specialist as well) and intertextuality. Apparently Eco claimed that "NOTHING" in this book is 'original'. Every single word and idea is borrowed from some other text, mostly medieval but sometimes more recent texts as Sherlock Holmes etc. I was familiar with the Aristotelian works on tragedy and the other forms of drama and everything just kept on falling in place like a jigsaw puzzle. Then there is the historical context mentioned earlier in this thread and larger than life historical figures walk straight out of the text, people like Roger Bacon and others. The text leads on as the reader gets sucked in and becomes a 'Sherlock' himself. Keep furnishing us with the references you find. Everything is borrowed from somewhere else and joined together to make a new (maybe!) story. I didn't know anything about Eco and the book was expensive but the title The Name of the Rose rang a bell (I was hooked, I was on my trail like a 'hound'!) Isn't it Geoffrey Chaucer? The Romance of the Rose???? There you go boy, step inside and find more. And then there is the small matter of Romeo's speech about the name and the smell of rose ("What's in the name?"). So Shakespeare also joins us hand in hand with Chaucer! This is not a 'tabloid' popularization of high culture as we find in, for example, The da Vinci Code. You have to have some sort of specialist knowledge because nothing is brought to you on a plate. You have to read Eco's book believing in its historical accuracy and reality, nothing is unreal as the boundaries between history and fiction evaporate, as the distance between texts written in 350 BC and 1000 AD and 1902 melt, dissolve and create a new text in 1980! Simply magic! It makes detectives of us all as it is written in the very modern and very popular genre of 'detective story', a murder-mystery. I could go on all night. I was fascinated by the book, so much so that I could not read any other fiction by Eco after this one (I have all of his novels, waiting to be read!!!) I prefer him as an expert of medieval aesthetics and a philosopher of what he calls 'the hyper-real.' He is much greater a philosopher and teacher than a novelist in spite of The Name of the Rose.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Remember this, Eco is a expert in semiotics, the philosophy of how one interprets signs, the cognitive process of interpreting the world. The Middle Ages essentially looked at signs as ends of God’s purpose. The Enlightenment looked at signs as things to logically figure out as ends in themselves. Post-Modern looks at the world and can’t connect information to a logical ends.

That's how I see the philosophic underpinnings of the novel. Of course there's much more.

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I believe that Eco's semiotics were very important to The Name. He wrote the novel immediately after he finished his Theory of Semiotics, and, like most detective stories, it involves interpreting signs. His other novels have also mirrored his non-fiction works. Foucault's Pendulum, which is about misinterpreting, was written at the same time when he was writing about literary interpretation.

I've been meaning to read Eco for a long time, but the fact he's not included in Bloom's Western Canon made me suspicious. He praises lots of crap, but the omission of such a popular author when second rates like Vonnegut are present is alarming.

Also, how "difficult" it is, compared to, say, Ulysses? (In the amount of extra knowledge needed to understand what's going on - in the sense that one won't consider Faulkner or Woolf "difficult")

Though I have not read Ulyssess, I can say that I have not yet found The Name of the Rose to be a difficult read

I really should be reading the novel, because trying to figure out what is going on exactly on audiotapes is not easy I found out. I was ok with tape one, but when I got to tape 2, side 3, I really began to get confused. I don't know if I will stick with it. Tapes are due back on Tuesday, but I could take the book out after that and considering I am finishing a book up I might be able to continue with the reading at least.

Didn't know Eco was being discussed. It doesn't seem as though the discussion's gone too far, so maybe I'll join in here and there. I read The Name of the Rose for the first time this last summer, and found it quite compelling. I happened to be reading a great deal of medieval literature and philosophy around the same time, and the thing I found best about the novel was the way it perfectly recreated the style, feel, and philosophy of the Medieval world. Indeed, there were passages in which I forgot that this was not simply a modern translation of a Medieval account rather than a contemporary novel. Then, of course, some Sherlockian reference would pop up and distract me from the graceful blending of Occam, Aristotle and Medieval Monasticism into a believable fiction. In some ways the book's qualities as a truly beautiful scholarly exercise detracts from it being entirely satisfactory as a novel, but if you take it for what it is, it's great stuff.

At least from what I recollect in my reading, I tend to agree with Etienne in so far as Eco's engagement with Occham seems entirely in keeping with Occham's philosophy. William does not, as Virgil suggests, "work contrary to the way anyone in the middle ages would have worked," but certainly he represents a more radical type of thought for the 14th century when the book is set. So the basic sides of philosophical debate in the novel are rooted in controversies from the Middle Ages. That said, I also think Virg. has a good point in saying that there other layers of thought woven into this Medieval discussion. Eco very subtly finds ways to, not only make the Medieval world breath as though it were still fresh, but to suggest modern and post-modern issues without making them seem garishly imposed upon the earlier philosophy. As Kafka's Crow also enthusiastically draws out, there are a profusion of literary and philosophical influences interacting in this book, making it an intertextual labyrinth in terms of style alone.

A few things I wanted to respond to right off:

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

I read "the name of the rose" a few years ago, and just in browsing through it again, I remember now, how much parts of the story reminded me of Borges "labyrinths"... especially "the library"... not quite the same, well not the same at all for that matter... but it just seemed to me, to always conjure up images of Borges' work... anyone else find this, or am I crazy? really I could be, so be honest? haha

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There is no doubt that Borges was a profound direct influence on Eco and, as you've pointed out, the two writers were interested in very similar themes of libraries and labyrinths etc. Indeed, I believe I've heard that the librarian, Jorge, in The Name of the Rose is named in allusion to Jorge Luis Borges. Scholars consider both Eco and and Borges part of the Magic Realism genre of literature.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I have just recently started reading The Name of the Rose Umberto Eco, and there is one thing which I could not help but to notice. I am currently nearly finnished with Day One, After Nones, and they were descirbing what the illuminations of the monk Adelmo and I found that there seemed to be a strong resemblence between the works of Adelmo, and the art work of Dutch painter Hieronymus Bosch... Though the book is set in the 1300's and Bosh painted in the late 1400's to early 1500's, he was a relgious man but I cannot find any real connection between him and the story. His style of painting was quite unique and still is.

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Bosch does have incredibly memorable images, but I would imagine that Eco had actual 14th century illuminations in mind in that passage. There are some pretty far out images in Manuscript illuminations from that period and before, as Niamh suggests. The images from illuminations must have had an influence on Bosch, so there's a connection in that sense, but there's no reason Eco would have to be thinking of anything beyond illuminations of the period.

Glad you joined the conversation Petrarch. I bet you can offer some good insights.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

At least from what I recollect in my reading, I tend to agree with Etienne in so far as Eco's engagement with Occham seems entirely in keeping with Occham's philosophy.

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I vaguely understand Occam's philosophy but I don't understand how it fits in the novel. Any help there would be appreciated.

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William does not, as Virgil suggests, "work contrary to the way anyone in the middle ages would have worked," but certainly he represents a more radical type of thought for the 14th century when the book is set. So the basic sides of philosophical debate in the novel are rooted in controversies from the Middle Ages.

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But how does the whole Sherlock Holmes thing fit in? The character is William of Baskerville, which is a bit of an absurdity if one restricts oneself to only medival thought.

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That said, I also think Virg. has a good point in saying that there other layers of thought woven into this Medieval discussion. Eco very subtly finds ways to, not only make the Medieval world breath as though it were still fresh, but to suggest modern and post-modern issues without making them seem garishly imposed upon the earlier philosophy.

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If this novel only relates to us as a historical novel, then I think it will come up short. Who cares about what a fiction writer of 1983 thinks about medival ideas. If they are so important to him he can write an essay or a non-fiction book. Ultimately this novel has to relate to modern or post modern ideas or else it's a limited work.

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There is no doubt that Borges was a profound direct influence on Eco and, as you've pointed out, the two writers were interested in very similar themes of libraries and labyrinths etc. Indeed, I believe I've heard that the librarian, Jorge, in The Name of the Rose is named in allusion to Jorge Luis Borges. Scholars consider both Eco and and Borges part of the Magic Realism genre of literature.

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Yes Jorge of Burgos alludes to Jorge Luis Borges. Interesting Eco sets him as the villain.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I vaguely understand Occam's philosophy but I don't understand how it fits in the novel. Any help there would be appreciated.

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Well since no one actually seems interested in discussing the philosophy of Ockham, I'll post a very brief outline.

Ockham was a strong supporter of nominalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalism) of a kind sometimes called conceptualism, as opposed to Duns Scot's realism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism). Ockham's main contribution to philosophy is a matter of method, the most known example is Ockham's razor (do not multiply entities beyond necessity), and overall a method that prefigures the analytical movement in contemporary philosophy by it's attempt to be throughly logical and empirical.

We can say that he was a epistemic realist (in the sense where the real is directly accessible) and a ontological antirealist.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Bosch does have incredibly memorable images, but I would imagine that Eco had actual 14th century illuminations in mind in that passage. There are some pretty far out images in Manuscript illuminations from that period and before, as Niamh suggests. The images from illuminations must have had an influence on Bosch, so there's a connection in that sense, but there's no reason Eco would have to be thinking of anything beyond illuminations of the period.

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Yes that would make sense of Bosch was influenced by the illuminations, and it would stand to reason, that Eco would stick with 14century art within the story.

I was just particuarly struck by the descritipons, of human bodies having fish heads, and such images as that, that were very Basch in my mind.

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Glad you joined the conversation Petrarch. I bet you can offer some good insights.

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Thanks, Virg. I'll try. Forgot to mention last night that my copy of the book is in California, so I'm going to track one down at the library this afternoon so that I'm better able to look at the specifics with you all.

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Originally Posted by Ettiene

Well since no one actually seems interested in discussing the philosophy of Ockham, I'll post a very brief outline.

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Thanks, Ettiene. I was not up to tackling a summation of Nominalism last night, so this looks like a good start for the curious. I'll add the Wikipedia article on Ockham himself to the mix (though I've only had a chance to peruse it briefly, so let me know if you purposely avoided that entry because of possible Wikipdia errors or something): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Ockham

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I vaguely understand Occam's philosophy but I don't understand how it fits in the novel. Any help there would be appreciated.

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To begin with, I thought he clearly marked a lot of references to Occam by having the character William directly refer to ideas that he got from his friend Occam, but I'll have to look again when I get a copy of the book to see what other things look razor sharp to me (sorry, could not resist bad Occam joke:p ) and to contemplate how exactly the philosophy is being integrated into the fiction. We could also start with the fact that Ockham's name was William. :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But how does the whole Sherlock Holmes thing fit in? The character is William of Baskerville, which is a bit of an absurdity if one restricts oneself to only medival thought.

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Yes, the Sherlock Holmes references are clearly there, and I don't think I was suggesting at all the that the novel is purely restricted to Medieval philosophy, just that the Medieval philosophy is more complex than was being assumed. I thought both you and Kafka's Crow were doing a great job of drawing out more post modern philosophical aspects and the intense engagement with intertextuality that are both such a huge part of Eco's project. I've always assumed that Conan Doyle had Ockham's razor in mind when he was creating the Holmes character, so I do find that there are times when William's rational approach seems to slide effortlessly between the influence of the Medieval thinker and the 19th century detective character (there are other places where the Holmsian references are more sharply defined and not particularly tied to Ockham of course).

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If this novel only relates to us as a historical novel, then I think it will come up short. Who cares about what a fiction writer of 1983 thinks about medival ideas. If they are so important to him he can write an essay or a non-fiction book. Ultimately this novel has to relate to modern or post modern ideas or else it's a limited work.

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Yes, again, I was agreeing with you that he's using a Medieval base to play with more modern issues. I was also admiring how well he creates that Medieval world and how seamlessly he joins it with a post modernist sense. Ultimately he is using such a variety of philosophical and stylistic sources, that they tend to blend and merge (just as I was suggesting with the Ockham/Holmes similarities above). Part of what comes across to me in the book is that there are some profound echoes and similarities between the concerns of Medieval thinking and concerns of our own thinking. He creates an exceedingly complex world within the book that is at once a Medieval world, a post modern world commenting on that Medieval world, and a world somewhere fantastically suspended outside of any historical context at all--a world that never existed despite its sometimes deeply convincing historical presence. I think it's that third dimension--the dimension of the fantastic or fantasy world in which texts and philosophies from a variety of eras are merged and jumbled--that frees the book most to be a compelling read.

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Yes Jorge of Burgos alludes to Jorge Luis Borges. Interesting Eco sets him as the villain.

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Thanks for confirming that Virg. I had fogotten that he was Jorge of Burgos. That wily, witty Eco. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I was just particuarly struck by the descritipons, of human bodies having fish heads, and such images as that, that were very Basch in my mind.

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Yes, and Bosch was a very logical place to go for that. Certainly you've got the spirit of the descriptions by envisioning Bosch. When I have a bit more time I'll track down some illumination images like the ones being described in that passage. Some of them are pretty amazing.

here are some images from the book of kells:
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...okofkells1.gif
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...okofkells2.png
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...okofkells3.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...okofkells4.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...okofkells5.gif
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...okofkells6.jpg
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...okofkells7.png

Wonderful, Niamh. Here are some more illuminations I dug up online. All are from roughly around the time The Name of the Rose is supposed to be set or within the century before.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3.../grotesque.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...ardoD/bird.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...sterthings.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...D/00547501.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...901_detail.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...uscripts_2.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3..._075R_MIN1.jpg

Niamh, thanks for posting the pictures from the Book of Kells. I have an art book of the Book of Kells; I should look at it more closely today. Interesting dual images and illuminations.

Petrarch, those images are amazing and to think they are from that time period. Thanks for posting them.
I have a question for you. I read Arthur Connon-Doyle's "The White Company" a few years ago; as you must know it,
"A historical novel of Knights and Chivalry set during the Hundred Years War." I wondered how this might tie in with Eco's book? The second paragraph in the story, mentions an abbey and monks.
At the time I read the book, I was amazed to discover that Doyle had written this type of literature, and was quite well-known for it. I would assume this plays into this creative mixture in Eco's book, going back to those sources that inspired him.

I found this in Wikepedia and thought it tied in with what everyone was saying about the novel coming from various sources. Also I had wondered about the name and here it explains something about it. If you go to the Wikepedia entry for the novel title you will find more conjection on the meanings behind the title, and some other interesting information on the novel.
This may be a SPOILER so be warned if you have not finished reading the novel....

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Umberto Eco is a significant postmodernist theorist and The Name of the Rose is a postmodern novel.[1] For example he says in the novel "books always speak of other books, and every story tells a story that has already been told." This refers to a postmodern ideal that all texts perpetually refer to other texts, rather than external reality.[1] In true postmodern style, the novel ends with uncertainty: "very little is discovered and the detective is defeated" (postscript). William of Baskerville solves the mystery "by mistake", he thought there was a pattern but it was all in fact accidental. Thus Eco has turned the modernist quest for finality, certainty and meaning on its head leaving the overall plot simply one of accident and without meaning.[1] Even the novel's title is without meaning, Eco saying in the Postscript he chose the title "because the rose is a symbolic figure so rich in meanings that by now it hardly has any meaning left."[2]

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