May / Irving Reading: 'A Prayer For Owen Meany'

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But that doesn't quite answer it. Why doesn't he not "feel like 'practicing'"? Can it be (again I haven't finished; I'm on page 400 or so) that Johnny has been frozen emotionally at the time of his mother's death and has not been able to grow from there? He was eleven and pre-puberty and a significant core within him has not been able to move on.

Also, the sections where the narration jumps to present time, the 1987 sections where johnny is just always angry. It seems to me that the adult Johnny has remained an adolescent, aestheiticaly dramatised by Irving by the fact that narrative never goes anywhere. It's just repetative and never progresses. At least up to the point I've read.

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The way I understand Johnny's statement is that after what has happened to him (you will be enlightened regarding this remark after you've read the last 2 chapters) he feels as if his sex apparatus has been severed - and so obviously once you've lost that, "practicing" would not have much appeal to you anymore, would it? :(
I don't think he attributes his lack of sex life to his mother's death.

By 1987 Johnny has become very politically aware. In days past, it was Owen who was politicized, Johnny was merely content to listen and follow like a faithful disciple. I would dare say that Owen's legacy was not only that Johnny became a Christian because of him but also that Johnny became avidly interested in the intrigues and maneuverings of the US government.

In Ch 7 (towards the beginning) John narrates:

Nineteen sixty-one was the first year of our friendship that was marred by unfriendly criticism and quarreling. Our most basic dispute began in the fall when we returned to the academy for our senior year, and one of the privileges extended to seniors at Gravesend was responsible for an argument that left Owen and me feeling especially uneasy.

So Owen was against doing the rounds of the Harvard Square striptease bars and he disapproved of drinking, and the discovery of the secret life that Tabitha had led in Boston was disquieting for him - and John especially, but I can't find the scene where they had an argument about these matters.

The school year 1961 was indeed tumultous, especially for Owen - the Mrs Lish incident, consultations with Dr Dolder, being found out about the fake draft cards, the Volkswagen incident, Mary Magdalene off her pedestal, the conflict with Headmaster White, among other things. But nowhere did I detect that these problems manifestly marred the friendship between John and Owen.

Anybody saw otherwise? Did anyone read through a passage/s where John and Owen quarrelled about these issues?

Well, I have been reading along but trying not to read stuff that will spoil my reading or the ending. Unfortunately, I just passed page 300 and doubt I will finish in time to disguss this book. However, discussions seem to be going well here and I find the entries so far enlightening.

I am also wondering about Owen's relationship with his parents. He obviously doesn't regard them with any deep affection. Is his attitude simply a consequence of the family being dysfunctional? Or is it because Owen believes in his virgin birth and thus does not consider Mr & Mrs Meany his true parents?

Great questions bouquin. I'm a 100 pages from finishing, I haven't even reached his virgin birth. To this point, Owen's family relationship is hardly developed. Yes, we see a static situation where they don't quite get along, but there is no development as to how it got there or how it evolves over time. We are led to believe that it is pretty much the same from when Owen is a child to when he is in his twenties. Perhaps the last hundred pages will clarify that.

I am only half way through and cannot say I am enjoying it much (guess, you can tell... averaging about 10 pages a day :-/).

However, I thought the part where Owen's parents found out that he would be playing the Baby Jesus instead of the Angel was very interesting. His mother first time shows a reaction (stares). Owen hastily explains that they liked him to play the Angel.

I need to read the posts carefully before I can post but I would like make couple of quick remarks:

- I am not reminded of Dickens at all while reading the book. If anything, I am somewhat reminded of Capote (without the charms of his style).

- I haven't finished the book so I am not sure how things will reveal themselves but while reading I cannot help thinking that it is Johnny who is more like Christ as he is born without a (known) father. And I hear from you guys that he is a virgin (pure?) as well.

- I find Owen annoying beyond words. 'Nobody likes a know-it-all!' :p

Good points Scher. I didn't think about Johnny in that way. But I too haven't finished so I can't really comment.

To me the writing does seem like a cross between Dickens and Capote.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I am only half way through and cannot say I am enjoying it much (guess, you can tell... averaging about 10 pages a day :-/).

However, I thought the part where Owen's parents found out that he would be playing the Baby Jesus instead of the Angel was very interesting. His mother first time shows a reaction (stares). Owen hastily explains that they liked him to play the Angel.

I need to read the posts carefully before I can post but I would like make couple of quick remarks:

- I am not reminded of Dickens at all while reading the book. If anything, I am somewhat reminded of Capote (without the charms of his style).

- I haven't finished the book so I am not sure how things will reveal themselves but while reading I cannot help thinking that it is Johnny who is more like Christ as he is born without a (known) father. And I hear from you guys that he is a virgin (pure?) as well.

- I find Owen annoying beyond words. 'Nobody likes a know-it-all!' :p

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I also agree with you, Scher, on several of your points. I find Owen annoying at times, too. I don't really perceive him as 'saintly' or 'Christ-like' at all. You are right in a way about the 'know-it-all'. He seems often to be smart-alecky. I think that is what annoys me about his persona. He does come off that way quite a bit and 'above it all', also. I don't know any saintly people who use the harsh words he comes out with. He is pretty blunt at times, don't you think? I also can't picture kids talking like this in the 50's, but maybe I was sheltered. It seems the dialogues are pretty much contemporary. I have just gotten to the part where he and Johnny goe to Boston and they look up the voice specialist. Owen is quite stubborn about any help with his voice, even to the extent of doing exercises or anything. I thought he was a little bit rude to the doctor who seemed very nice to the two boys.
I am a slow reader and particularly with this book for some reason. I have to force myself to read some each night and I am averaging about 10 pages like you. I am only to about 321.:( which is frustrating.
I also don't think the book Dickens-like, at all. I thought this book had great charm when I started and for about 100 pgs in, but now I am disappointed with the tone and the way the book is dragging on. Maybe I just need to get past the point I am to and find out some interesting new facts to spur me onward. I think it feels more like Capote's writing - without the charm, as you said, Scher. His characters are quirky like in Capote's novellas, but not quite as likable, I think.

In chapter 2, Johnny makes this comment after Noah and Simon forced him to kiss Hester:

Did Noah and Simon ever consider the danger of the game?... they thought nothing was dangerous. But Hester and I were dangerous. And they started it: Noah and Simon started it.

I do not understand these lines. What did Noah and Simon start? And do you consider John and Hester dangerous? In what way/s?

I thought it refered to the potential for sexual interaction between Johnny and Hester. Borderline incest since they are cousins.

"A Prayer for Owen Meany" that is the tome I'm wondering about. Sounds a little like the plot lines of "The Tin Drum" by Gunter Grass but surely quiite different. Is it worth reading or will a synopsis do? quasimodo1

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

"A Prayer for Owen Meany" that is the tome I'm wondering about. Sounds a little like the plot lines of "The Tin Drum" by Gunter Grass but surely quiite different. Is it worth reading or will a synopsis do? quasimodo1

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The plot lines are quite different but there are certainly similarities between Owen and Oskar. I think it's worth reading, I'm very fond of the book but others may have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I thought it refered to the potential for sexual interaction between Johnny and Hester. Borderline incest since they are cousins.

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That's what I understood, too - that the "danger" had to do with the potential for incest. But John kissed Hester only once; if I remember correctly, no other such similar episodes transpired between them ever again. So in retrospect (since John describes the kissing incident years later, when he is already in his 40s) why would he associate it with danger? Nothing ever came of it, right? Not as far as Hester and John were both concerned anyway.
And when he says Noah and Simon started it it would seem as if, with that kiss, the 2 boys got something (dangerous) rolling that ended up with some serious or significant sexual consequences for John and Hester together. And yet obviously nothing progressed along these lines.

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Originally Posted by bouquin

That's what I understood, too - that the "danger" had to do with the potential for incest. But John kissed Hester only once; if I remember correctly, no other such similar episodes transpired between them ever again. So in retrospect (since John describes the kissing incident years later, when he is already in his 40s) why would he associate it with danger? Nothing ever came of it, right? Not as far as Hester and John were both concerned anyway.
And when he says Noah and Simon started it it would seem as if, with that kiss, the 2 boys got something (dangerous) rolling that ended up with some serious or significant sexual consequences for John and Hester together. And yet obviously nothing progressed along these lines.

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True, but when John is retelling the episode, he's trying to get into the emotion of the moment. Isn't that what most narrators looking back do? And if I remember, John got an erection from the contact, so the potential was there. And Hester may not have stopped him. While nothing progressed, John in many moments desires it and is a little jealous of Owen when he becomes Hester's boyfriend.

Wow, I just finished the book. I really liked the last 200 pages or so. Had a hard time putting it down in the last 50 especially. I have to let it all sink in and I am a bit tired now, but will comment on it sometime tomorrow, hopefully. It was a good book - very thought-provoking indeed!

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Originally Posted by Virgil

True, but when John is retelling the episode, he's trying to get into the emotion of the moment. Isn't that what most narrators looking back do? And if I remember, John got an erection from the contact, so the potential was there. And Hester may not have stopped him. While nothing progressed, John in many moments desires it and is a little jealous of Owen when he becomes Hester's boyfriend.

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By "emotion of the moment" do you mean to say that it was Johnny as a young boy who recognized that kissing Hester was a perilous act, that he and she were both dangerous?
I find it hard to imagine that a 10-year-old boy, after kissing his cousin (and getting an erection), could make a moral judgment that that was a dangerous thing to do because what if it goes further than that the next time, that's borderline incest, etc. I could picture him feeling disgust, anger, embarrassment, confusion - but being capable, at such a young age, of thinking that it was a dangerous act because of the risk of incest... I'm rather skeptical about that.