cry, l'ttle baby.
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cry, l'ttle baby.
it's not a fight, it's merely trying to see others views and putting accross your own.
<If you believe in NOTHING than what's the point in anything?>
Of course, it is impossible to believe in nothing. I can believe in something, it doesn't give a point to anything. Why do people seem to think that belief gives some kind of external meaning? You can believe all kinds of sh*t. It won't make your world any the more objective. Believe me!
<The theory goes that all the people who don't want to be around God don't have to be.>
Here's my theory: Hell is a world filled with well-meaning people who believe that God is around them, that he is looking after their interests, as all good parents would, who believe that God speaks to them, loves them, has plans for them; when in fact, sh*t happens indiscriminately, the good people of the Lord suffer as horribly as the rest of us, they dedicate themselves terribly unsuccessfully to Him, and deserve something for their efforts at least. Now all that would be purgatory, if it weren't for the fact that when hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, plagues, famines kill thousands of people, God-lovers and others, these believers still belief in their loving God. They even think that a return of 15 living survivors against say 25,000 dead is something to call a miracle. Now that is hell.
And IWilKikU, what is it with you and the Christian persecution complex? Don't you realise the debates that occur here regarding God are NOT about Christianity, they are about monotheism? Do you think Christianity = Monotheism?
<*deep breath* Do you really think THIS is all there is to the world? That there's nothing else out there? No greater meaning, no other purpose, no greater good? Why don't I just kill myself then? I'd rather die than believe in nothing, as if this is all there is. Beliefs are important because they are the quintessential essence of humanity. Love, faith, hope. It's what holds us together. Atheists sound so inhuman sometimes, standing there belittling things that others hold dear. what do you believe in? nothing?>
You wouldn't be belittling my beliefs now would you Fayefaye?
greater meaning? greater good? What on earth do you mean by that? Whose good? Whose meaning? Do you believe these terms are absolute? Why should anything that is the quintessential essence of humanity be important to the Universe? to God? I would say you have missed some essential elements that hold us together in your list. Try sex, power, ego, knowledge. These things hold us together too you know. Or do you consider them less worthy than love, faith, hope (btw this little list of yours does sound so Pauline, and old hat, sorry IWilKikU, but it does!). There are plenty of things to believe in Fayefaye. Things you can see everyday, the beauties, the peculiarities, the regularities and the subtleties of life. I believe in music, in art, in good literature. I believe in decay, and transition, and regeneration. See, I believe in lots of things. And they provide me with meaning that will die for me when I die. Which is just as well. I don't want permanence, or immutability. Change is all there is. Maybe we should be glad enough for that.
Still no-one has answered my question about why people who believe in Hell have children. I mean, one definite way of making sure that fewer people go there, is to stop creating so many people. That would surely be a loving, thoughtful and considerate way of dealing with the problem of hell wouldn't it?
I think you can tell what someone believes by the way they behave. It is a far better yardstick than words can ever be. Just look at the way religious people behave, that will tell you what they really believe.
<If you believe in NOTHING than what's the point in anything?>
Of course, it is impossible to believe in nothing. I can believe in something, it doesn't give a point to anything. Why do people seem to think that belief gives some kind of external meaning? You can believe all kinds of sh*t. It won't make your world any the more objective. Believe me!
<The theory goes that all the people who don't want to be around God don't have to be.>
Here's my theory: Hell is a world filled with well-meaning people who believe that God is around them, that he is looking after their interests, as all good parents would, who believe that God speaks to them, loves them, has plans for them; when in fact, sh*t happens indiscriminately, the good people of the Lord suffer as horribly as the rest of us, they dedicate themselves terribly unsuccessfully to Him, and deserve something for their efforts at least. Now all that would be purgatory, if it weren't for the fact that when hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, plagues, famines kill thousands of people, God-lovers and others, these believers still belief in their loving God. They even think that a return of 15 living survivors against say 25,000 dead is something to call a miracle. Now that is hell.
And IWilKikU, what is it with you and the Christian persecution complex? Don't you realise the debates that occur here regarding God are NOT about Christianity, they are about monotheism? Do you think Christianity = Monotheism?
<*deep breath* Do you really think THIS is all there is to the world? That there's nothing else out there? No greater meaning, no other purpose, no greater good? Why don't I just kill myself then? I'd rather die than believe in nothing, as if this is all there is. Beliefs are important because they are the quintessential essence of humanity. Love, faith, hope. It's what holds us together. Atheists sound so inhuman sometimes, standing there belittling things that others hold dear. what do you believe in? nothing?>
You wouldn't be belittling my beliefs now would you Fayefaye?
greater meaning? greater good? What on earth do you mean by that? Whose good? Whose meaning? Do you believe these terms are absolute? Why should anything that is the quintessential essence of humanity be important to the Universe? to God? I would say you have missed some essential elements that hold us together in your list. Try sex, power, ego, knowledge. These things hold us together too you know. Or do you consider them less worthy than love, faith, hope (btw this little list of yours does sound so Pauline, and old hat, sorry IWilKikU, but it does!). There are plenty of things to believe in Fayefaye. Things you can see everyday, the beauties, the peculiarities, the regularities and the subtleties of life. I believe in music, in art, in good literature. I believe in decay, and transition, and regeneration. See, I believe in lots of things. And they provide me with meaning that will die for me when I die. Which is just as well. I don't want permanence, or immutability. Change is all there is. Maybe we should be glad enough for that.
Still no-one has answered my question about why people who belive in Hell have children. I mean, one sure way of making sure that fewer people go there, is to stop creating so many people. That would surely be a loving, thoughtful and considerate way of dealing with the problem of hell wouldn't it?
"Just look at the way religious people behave, that will tell you what they really believe."
Religion doesn't equal belief.
"Still no-one has answered my question about why people who belive in Hell have children."
The way I see it people don't believe that their children would go to hell. If you believe in a heaven surely you would believe that your kids'll go there, at least when their born, and you raise in a way that will ensure this, it just doesn't always work.
Of course they are less worthy. Any shmuck can get a hold on sex, power or ego (in fact, power seems to revolve around idiots these times :mad: ). Have you read the Prince lately? That sounded a lot like Macchiavelli.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Try sex, power, ego, knowledge. These things hold us together too you know. Or do you consider them less worthy than love, faith, hope (btw this little list of yours does sound so Pauline, and old hat, sorry IWilKikU, but it does!).
They aren't things to believe in. They're there, wether you like it or not.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
There are plenty of things to believe in Fayefaye. Things you can see everyday, the beauties, the peculiarities, the regularities and the subtleties of life. I believe in music, in art, in good literature. I believe in decay, and transition, and regeneration. See, I believe in lots of things. And they provide me with meaning that will die for me when I die. Which is just as well. I don't want permanence, or immutability. Change is all there is. Maybe we should be glad enough for that.
Because it's a stupid way. It's not about hell either. If your solution to any problem is reducing the number of people, then you're not making much sense.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Still no-one has answered my question about why people who believe in Hell have children. I mean, one definite way of making sure that fewer people go there, is to stop creating so many people. That would surely be a loving, thoughtful and considerate way of dealing with the problem of hell wouldn't it?
That is not a bad measure method. If religion was followed properly (in this case, as I see how christianism should be follow, or more accurately, how I try to follow it), then behavior would certainly improve.Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
I think you can tell what someone believes by the way they behave. It is a far better yardstick than words can ever be. Just look at the way religious people behave, that will tell you what they really believe.
*Whispering*
BTW, you posted your post twice :)
hmm... well, i think the choices we make and the things we do determine our fate...
Crisaor,
<Any shmuck can get a hold on sex, power or ego>
And what's wrong with sex, power and ego? Why do you have to denigrate them? I suppose you think love, faith and hope are elevated above these other human endeavours do you? Well, let me tell you this, without sex you wouldn't be here. Without power, you wouldn't be here and without ego you wouldn't be here. However, it doesn't take love, or faith, or hope for you to be here. Secondly, don't you think that in going around calling people shmucks you slip into that typical self-righteousness associated with your religious belief?
<They aren't things to believe in. They're there, wether you like it or not.>
I don't really understand what you mean here, Crisaor. It does rather sound like you are saying that real existences aren't things to believe in. I assume then, that you agree with me, that God doesn't really exist?
<Because it's a stupid way. It's not about hell either. If your solution to any problem is reducing the number of people, then you're not making much sense.>
Oh dear, more higher-than-thou condemnation. Well, I guess I get used to it from people with your way of thinking.
My solution is not for any problem at all. I said it was in relation to the problem of hell. Not having children is an absolute guarantee of not adding to the population of hell. Is that really difficult to understand?
And in answer to Cassandra: as long as there is anything less than 100% certainty of your child going to heaven, can you really take that gamble? After all, we are talking about an eternity of suffering here. Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture? I mean what would that make you? How could you be happy, if you knew that even 1 person was suffering eternal pain? How could you? Have you ever heard of Williams Syndrome? It is the name given to a terrible affliction, where a person feels endlessly inanely happy. They can be told of the deaths of all their relatives, they can see the most horrific suffering, and still maintain a sense of bliss. Is this really the state you want to be in forever?
AP, first of all I don't consider myself a "Christian"... today. I might again tomorrow. I'm a little indecisive about it. But wether or not I am its not cool to come out swinging at Christianity so much. This particular thread does seem to be following the trend of monotheism rather than Christianity, but you specifically attack Christians in a good 50% of your posts. I was merely observing that you appear to have a common agenda within your forum personallity. Are you trying to convert the entire site to... whatever you are? Having people of varying religeous beliefs on the site is a bonus for everyone. Making your beliefs known is great. Keep it up. But deliberately picking fights based on religeous beliefs DOES NOT make this forum a better place. Check out Dyrwin, he runs an athiest discussion forum and I don't think I have ever once seen him trying to belittle people on this forum who's views he may disagree with. He respects the Christian users based on their literature discussions, so when we get into philosophical discussions he doesn't bash the Christians. He listens and dissagrees. All I'm trying to say is make your beliefs known, but don't be such a zealot!Quote:
Originally posted by atiguhya padma
And IWilKikU, what is it with you and the Christian persecution complex? Don't you realise the debates that occur here regarding God are NOT about Christianity, they are about monotheism? Do you think Christianity = Monotheism?
And for the record, I get just as frusterated listening to Christian zealots go on their tirades.
Crisaor,
<Any shmuck can get a hold on sex, power or ego>
And what's wrong with sex, power and ego? Why do you have to denigrate them? I suppose you think love, faith and hope are elevated above these other human endeavours do you? Well, let me tell you this, without sex you wouldn't be here. Without power, you wouldn't be here and without ego you wouldn't be here. However, it doesn't take love, or faith, or hope for you to be here. Secondly, don't you think that in going around calling people shmucks you slip into that typical self-righteousness associated with your religious belief?
<They aren't things to believe in. They're there, wether you like it or not.>
I don't really understand what you mean here, Crisaor. It does rather sound like you are saying that real existences aren't things to believe in. I assume then, that you agree with me, that God doesn't really exist?
<Because it's a stupid way. It's not about hell either. If your solution to any problem is reducing the number of people, then you're not making much sense.>
Oh dear, more higher-than-thou condemnation. Well, I guess I get used to it from people with your way of thinking.
My solution is not for any problem at all. I said it was in relation to the problem of hell. Not having children is an absolute guarantee of not adding to the population of hell. Is that really difficult to understand?
And in answer to Cassandra: as long as there is anything less than 100% certainty of your child going to heaven, can you really take that gamble? After all, we are talking about an eternity of suffering here. Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture? I mean what would that make you? How could you be happy, if you knew that even 1 person was suffering eternal pain? How could you? Have you ever heard of Williams Syndrome? It is the name given to a terrible affliction, where a person feels endlessly inanely happy. They can be told of the deaths of all their relatives, they can see the most horrific suffering, and still maintain a sense of bliss. Is this really the state you want to be in forever?
<you specifically attack Christians in a good 50% of your posts>
I respond to Christian posts. If there were more Muslim posters I would respond to them too. How can you say that I specifically attack Christians? How many times do I actually refer to Christianity? I respond to what I think is incorrect. I try my best not to make statements like <Because it's a stupid way>. That reads as a statement of fact. Read some of my postings again, IWilKiku, and you will see that I frequently make statements of opinion. I oftenpose questions. Rarely do I write something that reads as a factual statement, unless I can make a pretty sound logical case for it. Whilst I will often respond to ideas I disagree with, most of my responses have been to these opinionated statements that masquerade as facts. Now if it is the Christians that are most guilty of making these types of statement, that is hardly my fault, is it?
You call me a zealot, but if that is the case, I would like to know what you think my zealous beliefs are? I am not trying to convert anyone. I don't have any systematic set of beliefs to convert them to. When I am asked to provide alternative views I try my best to give something.
You say that you are frustrated by Christian zealots. I suppose, the fact that you have singled me out for a lecture on moderation, means that in your eyes, not only am I a zealot, but I am the only zealot here. Have you ever given this lecture to Christians on this site? Or don't you think there are any Christian zealots here? Because it would appear that if I am the only focus of your criticism in this respect, then you would appear to have some bias against atheism. In which case, it should be me that should lecture you.
I once said in one of my post that somehow I think that most of the topic related to such matters (like fate, purpose of life, etc) are dominated with the discussion about christian values. I agree with you on that Kik . But I also agree with AP that it happened becoz most of the peeps here refered their opinions to Christianity. If there were any Budhist, Hindus, Muslims, members also participate, I'm sure the discussion will develop a whole lot more..
I have to say that I like AP's posts coz I think it broadened my horizon as a believer. Things that AP posted encouraged me to discover the answers from the prespective of Christianity (since this is my belief). So instead of seeing AP's posts as attack to Christian faith, I see them as somethings that can encourage me to learn more about Christian teaching. If this is the right belief for me, then I'll surely find those answers
And by the way I see a new member (the captain) and he/she was already banned ???
"And in answer to Cassandra: as long as there is anything less than 100% certainty of your child going to heaven, can you really take that gamble? After all, we are talking about an eternity of suffering here. Furthermore, how would you enjoy Heaven, knowing that there are billions of souls suffering endless torture? I mean what would that make you? How could you be happy, if you knew that even 1 person was suffering eternal pain? How could you? Have you ever heard of Williams Syndrome? It is the name given to a terrible affliction, where a person feels endlessly inanely happy. They can be told of the deaths of all their relatives, they can see the most horrific suffering, and still maintain a sense of bliss. Is this really the state you want to be in forever?"
I'm not happy about it, but it is not my decision, if it was everybody would be able to go to heaven, guess that's why it's not my choice. People have to be free to chose their own beliefs and fate, and if they cannot accept God even after death that's their decision, I can only give my children (when I have some) the opportunity and knowledge to make that choice.
that's called indoctrination.