Antony and Cleopatra anyone?

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Originally Posted by dramasnot6

shall we start on scene 2?

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Yes, and if you wished to start, you didn't need to ask.

Scene two divides into two parts.
Part 1: Cleopatra's attendants bantering with the soothsayer
Part 2: Antony and the news from Rome from several different messengers.

As to part 1, I'm intrigued by Cleo's two female attendants, Charmian and Iras in how they parallel and contrast Cleopatra. But I think the most important function of this episode is to contrast the Roman milieu with that of the Egyptian milieu. What we have here is playfulness and sexual banter.

As to part 2, we see Antony apart from Cleopatra, and here he demonstrates his command. He is the soldier in charge, makes calculated decisions. He is in his natural element. He hears disturbing political news.

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Messenger
The nature of bad news infects the teller.

MARK ANTONY
When it concerns the fool or coward. On:
Things that are past are done with me. 'Tis thus:
Who tells me true, though in his tale lie death,
I hear him as he flatter'd.

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He is strong here, but if you take those very words and project them into his relationship with Cleo, you see how opposite he is there. He is flattered by her, and he knows she manipulates him with lies. And as we see in the play, his past with her is not done. He returns to her.

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks View Post
Puh, having read Sleepy's entertaining story (not advertising it at all ), here I'm back with Willy.

I thought I'd post a quick outline of the historical action relevant for the play (omitting concrete dates). That might make it easier for those reading with us that aren't familiar with it:
(I write this from memory, so feel free to correct ):

* JULIUS CAESAR defeats POMPEIUS.
* " has a liason with CLEOPATRA, their son's called CAESARION.
* " dies.
* MARCUS ANTONIUS and OCTAVIAN (J. CAESAR'S adopted son, now called CAESAR) engage in a civil war.
* CAESAR is defeated
Yes quite a story. I love Roman history. From Republic to Empire to decline and fall of the west, and even a thousand years later the east. Very fascinating.

But Schoky, I had never seen before that Antony and Octavius faught prior to defeating the conspirators and that Octavius lost. Are you sure about that?

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Thanks for bringing that into question, Virg. I had missed seeing that. There was some very complicated disorder after Julius Caesar's death, and Antony and Octavian were certainly unfriendly for awhile. Antony pretty much ignored Octavian coming to town and Octavian had to prove himself which involved stealing some of Antony's troops and some battles between his troops and Antony's, as well as a lot of other complicated martial and political moves that I don't remember offhand. There was a bit of a power struggle between the two men, and they were both dealing with the anti-caesarian factions at the same time, but I'm not sure I would have thought of it as a civil war, or maybe what I mean is that I wouldn't have thought of it as a major civil war. I don't think you could say that Octavian lost anything in the period just prior to forming the triumvirate, since he was in control of Rome at the time.

Edit: I found this biography of Caesar Augustus (aka Octavian) online, which details the events with more clarity than I can. The description of the events leading up to the formation of the triumvirate is under the heading "Entrance into Politics: April 44-November 43 BC." http://www.roman-emperors.org/auggie.htm
For anyone interested, this is another good site with chronologies and information on the Roman Empire from the founding to the fall.
http://www.roman-empire.net/

Yes, Petrarch, your description of the events is my recollection. They were basicaly unfriendly and rivals, but had the mutual interst of driving off the conspirators and so worked together.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Cleopatra is miles ahead of Antony when it comes to relationship skills, for lack of a better phrase. She thinks like a chess player here and thinking moves ahead.

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I think "reltationship skills" is a great phrase for talking about Antony and Cleopatra. I'll have to keep that in mind when I teach it. Of course, now I'm imagining what these two would look like in couples therapy...

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Originally Posted by dramasnot6

I agree with your analysis Petrarch(which is really fantastic by the way). Maybe she is also exerting her power because she is insecure about her political status. From her previous history scheming with Ceaser to rule, she obviously is power and status hungry and doesnt want superficiality and romance to get in the way of her Queenhood.

Possibly her insecurity is also derived from her losing Ceaser and fear of losing Antony. As i mentioned in my earlier post, perhaps Antony is concentrating on love for his fear of death. In turn, Cleopatra could also fear their death, but takes a less doubting approach by trying to prevent it through political strategy and wariness. The age difference is signifigant in this contrast of solution to fear of death, as Cleopatra is younger and she has less of an idea that death is inevitable. Where as Antony is much older and has much more experience with death, and therefore is more accepting of his fate.

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Yes, I think you've got two great points here. The merging of the amorous and the political realms is certainly another central theme in this play,and I think you're right about Cleo's insecurity as to her political status.

I like your suggestion that both of them might also be a bit skittish about the possibility of impending death and thus more likely to throw themselves into amorous pursuits. I'm not sure about the contrast in age being especially significant in this regard though. Cleopatra may not have seen the amount of death that a veteran soldier would have, and she is certainly younger than Antony. She was 39 when she died and the play covers roughly ten years of history, so she's about 29 or 30 at the begginning of the play, while Antony would be about 43 (he was 53 when he died). All the same, I think she's a pretty experienced and sophisticated woman of the world at this point. She's been a wife, a mother and the mistress of two powerful men, one of whom was assasinated.

As for scene two, from an annotator's point of view, that was a lot of work. I had no idea how many bawdy innuendos could be packed into a single line until it suddenly became my job to explain them all in footnotes. :lol: There's a lot of great stuff going on in this scene. As Virgil points out, it's divided between Cleopatra's lascivious world on the one hand, and the call to Rome and duty (along with regret at the passing of Fulvia) on the other. The character who's present in both parts of the scene is Enobarbus, who has that great line, "Hush! Here comes Antony" when Cleopatra enters the scene. It's also in Enobarbus' dialogue that the sort of banter and sexual innuendo that we saw among Cleopatra's attendents carries over into the second half of the scene. He keeps up the naughty puns and bawdy suggestions until Antony finally re-asserts his position as a commander, declaring "No more light answers..." Enobarbus has been freely engaging in locker room style humor with Antony the lover, and we can see that Antony is returning to the role of Antony the general when he puts Enobarbus back in the position of the loyal follower who says to his commander only "I shall do 't."

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Antony pretty much ignored Octavian coming to town and Octavian had to prove himself which involved stealing some of Antony's troops and some battles between his troops and Antony's, [...] but I'm not sure I would have thought of it as a civil war, or maybe what I mean is that I wouldn't have thought of it as a major civil war.

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Hmm, I'm no warfare expert whatsoever, but ...

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's first link

As such, Octavian continued his preparations to attack Antony, now declared a public enemy, who had begun besieging Decimus Brutus at Mutina. Octavian, now an official representative of the republic, led his force into the region and moved against Antony.[...] Having secured his army's loyalty, Octavian marched on Rome and seized the city with eight legions. Three legions brought from outside Italy to counter him defected.

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... this is what I'd call a war.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

I don't think you could say that Octavian lost anything in the period just prior to forming the triumvirate, since he was in control of Rome at the time.

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Yup, you're right, I didn't remember that correctly. Thanks for clarifying ! :nod:

Schoky - I think you're confusing the early days with the war between them that ultimately occurs. We're questioning whether once the conspirators killed Julius Ceasar, Octavius and Antony faught. We're saying that they didn't fight, despite not liking each other, then they share the empire as part of the second triumpherate, and after that they fight a war, which we see in the play. I hope that made sense.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes, and if you wished to start, you didn't need to ask.

Scene two divides into two parts.
Part 1: Cleopatra's attendants bantering with the soothsayer
Part 2: Antony and the news from Rome from several different messengers.

As to part 1, I'm intrigued by Cleo's two female attendants, Charmian and Iras in how they parallel and contrast Cleopatra. But I think the most important function of this episode is to contrast the Roman milieu with that of the Egyptian milieu. What we have here is playfulness and sexual banter.

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I agree Virgil. The servants in Shakespeare's plays often serve as a cultural insight, but let us also consider their impact as a dramatic element. Shakespeare often uses the role of the servants to provide comedy relief when the protagonist or other relatively signifigant characters were experiencing an intense or tragic set of events. There is lots of use of more crude humor and witty banter between Charmian and Iras. Since Shakespeare had to appeal to both elite and poor audiences, he had to use lots of contrast of classes to appeal to all aspects of his audience. The use of light humor eases the audience into the second part of the scene which contains very dramatic news and philosophical discussion.

:lol: Comic relief is in every one of Shakespeare's plays....always a key factor in contrast and to appeal to the wide audience in Shakespeare's era. I agree with Virgil and with dramasnot. Both bring up good points.
I am just popping in, so I won't lose touch with the Shakespeare discussion group. Your discussions so far seem to be quite interesting. I have been reading them off and on this week. Wish I could participate, but unfortunately, I did not read the play. Next one I will join in hopefully.:D

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Originally Posted by dramasnot6

I agree Virgil. The servants in Shakespeare's plays often serve as a cultural insight, but let us also consider their impact as a dramatic element. Shakespeare often uses the role of the servants to provide comedy relief when the protagonist or other relatively signifigant characters were experiencing an intense or tragic set of events. There is lots of use of more crude humor and witty banter between Charmian and Iras. Since Shakespeare had to appeal to both elite and poor audiences, he had to use lots of contrast of classes to appeal to all aspects of his audience. The use of light humor eases the audience into the second part of the scene which contains very dramatic news and philosophical discussion.

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Yes, but it's more than comic releif. It establishes a contrast between the exotic, pleasure obsessed egyptians and the serious stoic-like Romans. Yes that stoic thing comes out again. I think that was Shakespeare's view of most Romans.

The most interesting passage of scene two is where he finds out of Fulvia's death:

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Second Messenger
Fulvia thy wife is dead.

MARK ANTONY
Where died she?

Second Messenger
In Sicyon:
Her length of sickness, with what else more serious
Importeth thee to know, this bears.

Gives a letter

MARK ANTONY
Forbear me.

Exit Second Messenger

There's a great spirit gone! Thus did I desire it:
What our contempt doth often hurl from us,
We wish it ours again; the present pleasure,
By revolution lowering, does become
The opposite of itself: she's good, being gone;
The hand could pluck her back that shoved her on.
I must from this enchanting queen break off:
Ten thousand harms, more than the ills I know,
My idleness doth hatch.

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What are the emotions here: resgination, and guilt. The politics of the previous messenger first puts him in a serious state, and the emotions here turn his constitution around. He must this enchanting queen break off. Despite what will be Cleo's reaction, he will leave.

Hi Virgil!:wave:

I like what you posted above. We also have a contrast of personality in Antony here. Before he seemed uncaring of politics and distracted by infatuation for Cleopatra, where as she played his more serious, work-minded counterpart. Now there is a reversal of roles, instead of emotion occupying Antony over proffesional obligation, it is that with Cleopatra. Her love for Antony and jealousy for his wife, even deceased, is prioritized over what she knows is his political duty. Where as Antony suddenly thrusts his consideration for Cleopatra's feelings aside in order to take on his role of grieving Roman husband. Funny enough, and i hope I'm overboard here, even when given an example from each, we see the difference in both Cleopatra and Antony's political priortization. Cleopatra is more interested in the issues of war and conflict, where as Antony only brushes off his romance for a more social occupation to preserve his good name.

Good points Drama. Whatever happened to Sleepywitch. She started this all, and has never showed up? :lol: But I'm glad I'm reading it. I'll have comments on scene three, a very interesting scene, a bit later.

Scene three starts off by Shakespeare dramatizing Cleopatra's skills at manipulating men. She debates it with Charmian, who i take as a lesser Cleopatra, very good maipulating skills herself, but not quite the Queen.

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CLEOPATRA
Where is he?

CHARMIAN
I did not see him since.

CLEOPATRA
See where he is, who's with him, what he does:
I did not send you: if you find him sad,
Say I am dancing; if in mirth, report
That I am sudden sick: quick, and return.

Exit ALEXAS

CHARMIAN
Madam, methinks, if you did love him dearly,
You do not hold the method to enforce
The like from him.

CLEOPATRA
What should I do, I do not?

CHARMIAN
In each thing give him way, cross him nothing.

CLEOPATRA
Thou teachest like a fool; the way to lose him.

CHARMIAN
Tempt him not so too far; I wish, forbear:
In time we hate that which we often fear.

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That last line by Charmian turns out to be wrong. While Antony does leave, he does return and he never hates Cleopatra. Look at the lies she wants her servants to tell Antony, and yet, in this very scene she has the gall to call Antony "the greatest liar." I love this dialogue between Antony and Cleopatra. Antony can't get a word in. He's on the defensive the whole time. [Frankly I know how this feels, :lol: powerful women can put men on the defensive.] Look at how Antony can't get a full reply in (I've shortened Cleo's parts for brevity):

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MARK ANTONY
What's the matter?

CLEOPATRA
I know, by that same eye, there's some good news....

MARK ANTONY
The gods best know,--

CLEOPATRA
O, never was there queen...

MARK ANTONY
Cleopatra,--

CLEOPATRA
Why should I think you can be mine and true...

MARK ANTONY
Most sweet queen,--

CLEOPATRA
Nay, pray you, seek no colour for your going,
...Art turn'd the greatest liar.

MARK ANTONY
How now, lady!

CLEOPATRA
I would I had thy inches; thou shouldst know
There were a heart in Egypt.

MARK ANTONY
Hear me, queen:

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And in the version I've seen, Antony practically screams that last line to get the initiative.:lol: Poor fellow.:D

And when Antony finally tells her that Fulvia has died, Cleo comes up with one of the most classic of responses:

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CLEOPATRA
O most false love!
Where be the sacred vials thou shouldst fill
With sorrowful water? Now I see, I see,
In Fulvia's death, how mine received shall be.

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"Now I see, I see" :lol: She's turned this around several hundred degrees. She actually makes him feel guilty double time, for Fulvia and for herself. Just think of the possible alternative responses she could have had to the news of his wife's death: (1) she could have been elated, because now he's free, (2) she could have felt compassion because afterall his wife, who must have meant something to him, has died. But what she makes him feel guilty because he's not contrite enough and then she projects that this same insensitivity will occur when she dies. She's a master chess player!!:lol: His head must be spinning. :D

All I can say is that i thank God my wife doesn't have these relationship skills. :lol:

And to cap scene three off, when Antony firmly says that he will leave, Cleo cannot find the right words. Her wit fails her and she breaks down into what she really feels for hin.

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MARK ANTONY
I'll leave you, lady.

CLEOPATRA
Courteous lord, one word.
Sir, you and I must part, but that's not it:
Sir, you and I have loved, but there's not it;
That you know well: something it is I would,
O, my oblivion is a very Antony,
And I am all forgotten.

MARK ANTONY
But that your royalty
Holds idleness your subject, I should take you
For idleness itself.

CLEOPATRA
'Tis sweating labour
To bear such idleness so near the heart
As Cleopatra this. But, sir, forgive me;
Since my becomings kill me, when they do not
Eye well to you: your honour calls you hence;
Therefore be deaf to my unpitied folly.
And all the gods go with you! upon your sword
Sit laurel victory! and smooth success
Be strew'd before your feet!

MARK ANTONY
Let us go. Come;
Our separation so abides, and flies,
That thou, residing here, go'st yet with me,
And I, hence fleeting, here remain with thee. Away!

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Beneath her cunning games is real love for him. And he returns that love. This makes it so complex. Despite , or should I say, inspite of the politics and cunning games and relationship power struggle, they really do love each other. This makes it so real. Middle aged people bring all of their hang ups that they've acquired over their lives and complicate their love.

I guess I should know. ;)