Post-Is Jesus really God?

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Originally Posted by muhsin

Well, that is nice.But as a sane figure, i think it is good for both of us to talk whenever,wherever,however etc with a good reason. So, can you qoute a single verse where Jesus says We should worship him?
Waiting........again.

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In being baptised by none other than John the Baptist, JESUS declared HIS DEITY. John was preaching in the desert of Judah saying, "Do Penance, for the Kingdom of the Heavens is drawn near." In declaring this Kingdom, he had a certain KING in mind, the MESSIAH. In this train of thought, the Baptist, a descendant of the High Priest Aaron, elder brother of Moses, added this proclamation:
"A Voice of one crying in the wilderness, 'Prepare ye the Way of YAHWEH, make straight HIS Paths.'" HE understood the KING at hand to be YAHWEH HIMSELF. [See Matthew Chapter 3]

JESUS, in coming to be baptised, had no sin to repent of, nor to do Penance for. HE came, as the FOUNDATION, to be the BEGINNING of the Baptism HE would give, into the NAME of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT. John, who alone of created men was blameless enough to baptise others, tried to prevent HIS Baptism at first, saying he was in need of what HE would offer. Before meeting JESUS, John prophesied that such a ONE would make HIS public appearance, and that the SAME would have a greater Baptism to offer than his own. That is the one John wished to recieve, knowing it to be the Entrance Rite into the Kingdom of the Heavens. In immersing HIMSELF in the Water to be used for Entrance into the New Life, HE made the Baptism to have its source in HIS own experience as the MEDIATOR between GOD and man.

In accepting John's recognition of HIM as the ONE that is mightier than the one who is the Voice referred to above, in John's declaration out of a Prophecy of Isaiah, HE acknowledged HIMSELF also as that ONE WHOSE Way John prepared, and that HE alone could offer Baptism with the HOLY SPIRIT and Fire. Thus, in seeing John as preparing HIS Way in fulfillment of the Prophecy about a Voice calling for the Way of none other than YAHWEH to be prepared, HE acknowledged from the commencement of HIS public Ministry that HE is YAHWEH.

The Baptism of JESUS issues from HIM. That means HE, as GOD, gives GOD's SPIRIT, as only GOD could do. The Passage I have referred to is full of allusions back to many potent statements by GOD and HIS Prophets about none other than GOD. I will go over those when the time is suited to the task. The NAME of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT is one DIVINE NAME, naming THREE PERSONS on a par, in a variety of Roles assumed for our sake.

I have much more to say, but have been pressed for time amidst many great pressures of circumstance.

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Originally Posted by Shield&Sword

I read different posts and first i see a user wrote that Jesus and Father and Holy spirit r 3 parts of one God, and then i see another user write( as i understand from him) that they r not separated, i think he mean that Jesus is WHOLE GOD so and Father and Holy Spirit, and that they r not 3 parts. Trinity is THE BASE of christianity, and i think the both of users above r christians, and i ask is Jesus part of God or a COMPLETE God, same q for about Father and Holy Spirit. Its really strange to be different views in such thing- can God be separated, or not? and if Jesus died then the first user say that a part of God died not WHOLE God, and as i understand from the second that God died not part of him.
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Mathew 3-16,17. In these verses we see The 3 parts of trinity in different places; Jesus pbuh in water and holy spririt in sky (form of dove), and Father in heaven, in that moment was God on earth or in form of dove or in heavens(if every one of them is God), and if Jesus is part so and Father and Holy Spririt, then in that moment was the complete God for first time in complete infront all? also i would like to ask, if Jesus is God, which sense there is in saying -this is my beloved son, in which i am pleased- and the father was pleased with a part of him, or he was pleased with him self. This sitution we can see it again in Mark 15-34 ''And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'' in this verse we see again conversation between parts of trinity, one of them ask other why did u leave, was he asking him self if he is complete God or he was talking to the other part?
Perhaps the one who say that they r not 3 parts can use the verse in John1 5:7 from king James version "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." but the last part part of the verse (the important part) we cant find it in now adays bible, in new versions, we can find it in King Jamed version, and i would like to get and answer for this question, Why did they cancel it; Who gave them the authorize to cancel; and which is God word, the one with the last part or the one without? as we see the last part is one of bases of christianity.
See u all.

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DEITY is what all three PERSONS each completely is. My being a complete human does not crowd out your being a complete human. You and I are one nature, but two persons of that nature.

"he didnt talk about dirty that bad words cause not what food cause" this is a part from a previuos paste, i mistaked by putting DIDNT, i meant Jesus pbuh was talking and giving lesson about bad words not about which food is allowed.

Mililalil, thank you for the response. I enjoyed the reading and I had never really realized the full significance of the passages that you described.

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Originally Posted by Shield&Sword

About seeking for truth i believe in Jesus pbuh as prophet , i believe also in God, and God for me is different from his creatures, God doesnt eat (i cant believe God who created all this, and the must beutifull can go to bathroom and make there what he must do after eating), cant believe God walk or beaten or DIED or cry, or was born from a woman womb and even i am sure that mother of Jesus didnt believe that GOD exist in her womb so she must eat good, or when she was feeding him she believed she is feeding God, or when she was dressing him, and people who circumcised him didnt believe they are circumsing God an they got piece of him, or people who wanted to stone him, i am not making fun, asking logic questions.

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Shield&Sword,

Your reason for not believing that Jesus is God is so fascinating to me. And yet no one has commented on it thus far, and so I shall comment! So this is what I think you're saying: God is so holy, so sacred, so above the degradation of this fallen world that you cannot fathom the circumstances under which this, the Holiest of beings, would lower Himself to the state of a mere man in all his filth and uncleanliness. It makes sense.

But for me, as a Christian who believes that God did just that, the shamefulness of it all makes Jesus' sacrifice all the more powerful. This holy being lowered himself to our level, he was shamed, he was ridiculed by those he created, he faced digustingness--the Son of God, he did all this. Why? Because if he didn't, none of us would make it to Heaven, because he loved us so much, that he was willing to go through that.

Anyways, thank you for getting me thinking Sword&Shield, although my thoughts ended up heading in a different direction than yours.

-Water Lilly

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Originally Posted by Shield&Sword

This thing reminded me with the verse John 10:30 I and my Father are one. Christians always say this verse show Jesus pbuh is God. Thats what will happen if we cut a part from all paragraph, lets take a look on the story. The story begin in John 10:22 begining from this verse we see that Jews come to Jesus pbuh and ask him are you the Christ (they were waiting for a prophet), and Jesus say respond him what he is doing and in John 10:25 he say that he make in his father's name (is he God?), and then in Jonh 10:30 he say this famous verse, but ets go on after it, begining from Jonh 10:31 we see that Jews wanted to stone because he said he is God, Jesus responded them denying he said he is God (we can understand it from his words), he ask them isnt the one who talk from God is god (according to Jews language-doesnt mean they r God), and he say if the one who talk from God is called god according your rules, then why y want to stone me if i said i am son of God. Jesus pbuh answer is so clear he didnt claim he is God, even Jews who wanted to stone him he answered them his saying he is son of God like saying to a prophet god. Then what mean i am and God one- it means that his goals are God's goals, his teachings are God's teaching, he is one with God in works and teaching, like me and u are one if we have same goal, same think. Me and my brother muslim are one because we have same thoughts same work, we are not one Fisically. In other words its a form of saying i am prophet, i do what God want(he work by God's name). In no form we can understand he is saying i am God.

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Dear Sword&Shield,

In your reference to the John 10:22-40 story, I'm afraid I disagree with your interpretation (and really it isn't so nice to disagree with people, but in this case really I feel that it can't go unsaid).

You say that oftentimes Christians reference John 10:30 ("I and the Father are one") as proof that Jesus is claiming to be God. Your argument is that Jesus and God are one in that they share the same beliefs. However I must disagree, because directly following Jesus' statement, John 10:31 reads "Again, the Jews picked up stones to stone him." Why did they wish to stone him? Becuase they believed he had commited "blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God" (John 10:33). Clearly the Jews interpreted Jesus saying "I and the Father are one" as a claim to divinity and that is why they took offence and wanted to stone him.

Now, my dear Sword&Shield, you also mention Jesus' answer to this accusion, so let's examine it. It is a little confusing, but here it is:

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I have said you are gods" If he called them "gods," to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken--what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own a nd sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy becuase I said, "I am God's Son?" Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even t hough you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you mau know and understand that the Father is in me and I in the Father."

Alrighty, so what is Jesus saying? He is saying, "Do not judge who I am by what I say, because anyone can claim to be God, but judge me by what I do, by the miracles I perform that prove that I and the Father are one."

When he talks about "gods" he is refering to Pslam 82. This pslam talks about the judges of Israel. It declares that even the judges (the gods) will be judged by the Judge (the God)--showing that the judges are lower than God and are not actually gods. Jesus references them to show that people who merely claim to be gods are not necessarily gods, one must judge by their actions, not their words.

So opposite to what Sword&Shield argues, I think that this passage shows that Jesus is claiming to be God, in his words and in his actions.

Well I hope all that was clear. :nod: All my best,

Water Lilly

Water the conditions that God passed is so fascinating for me. God was shamed??????!!!!!!!!!! God was beaten???????!!!!!!! God go to bathroom???????!!!!!!! Why?? because he love us???? Why??? cos he couldnt forgive human for human race??
Well according me God love us and forgived for Adam and Eve pbu them directly no reason that a son get his father sin (no justice, not logic), and he passed non of these above.
Beside crucifixion of Jesus pbuh is another matter (according islam he wasnt crucified, God raised him to heaven). Always from begining of history untle nowadays giving a sacrifice (an animal) need 3 parts, the one who give the sacrifice (the one who want to repent, like son of Adam pbuh who killed his brother) the sacrified thing, and the one who is the sacrfifice gived to so he forgive for the first one. We see son of Adam pbuh gave a sacrifice to God so he forgive him, so and Abraham instead of his child he gave to God.
According christianity God couldnt forgive so he GAVE JESUS AS SACRIFICE, to whom he gave? when Jesus was killed (u say he is God) who was the third part, who accepted the sacrification. God Killed him self for him self so he forgive people? people Killed Jesus (God according you) and in same time sacrifice was gived for same one who is killed? need a little bit of fanatasy.
But let us not to mix threads toghether.

Untle now no one single verse that show Jesus is God, only gathering verses from here and there like puzzle. I dont know why the Father in new test is so clear he is God, while Jesus pbuh no one clear verse about him, God show himself directly and say i am God, coz its the base of every relgioun. Knowing God directly is the center, God present him self in so clear way.
One verse that Jesus is prophet i gave so and other, and they are so clear he is sent by some one.
Abuot John 10:30 after people wanted to stone Jesus pbuh the answer he gave to them show he is not God, its so clear, the problem was that Jews didnt get the meaning of son of God, and they were asking him are you the Christ, he answered them an answer that Jews can get, its matter of Jews language. Even in other parts in new test we see that a Jew talk to himself and say who is that who claim to be prophet, no one looked ate him as God. coz he didnt claim such thing, and no mind can accept it, and no one believed he is God at that time. We see the Father so clear as God but Jesus not. Even the companions of Jesus pbuh ask them to show them God, why after all that time with him they ask him show us God if he is God, and they are the people who can understand him, then he respond them who see me saw God, he wasnt speaking about seeing with eyes he was talking about understanding me, its known that God no one can see him, this is the center of religioun, who believe in Prophet of God believe in God, who understand prophet understand God, because prophets are one in God's goal and teachings. Thats why in islam denying Jesus pbuh as prophet mean that you are out of islam, because believeing in prophets is believeing in God, because they are the only way to know God they only way to understand God, and to know what God order us and what his purpose in life for us, and how to get the heavens, no one must die for me and u, no one pay for sins others did, always massege of God was understood: this earth is an exam, who follow God and try his best will get the eternal life, and who refuse it will loose, this is the comon thing between all prophets massage: to know the only one God and the prophet he sent begining from Adam pbuh finishing with Muhammed pbuh.
Trinity Jesus is God Holy Spirit is God Father is God, they are not three Gods but one. Its not logic at all, and i dont know when was reading a whole book will be the result a non logic phrase. A user say i and he/her are one in nature, yes we are but we are 2 persons, does this mean Jesus is God and Father is God, they have same nature and they are 2 Gods?

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Originally Posted by rufioag

Have we not given enough evidence? Once again, you constantly ignore my answers and clearly do not understand. 1st Timothy, in whatever version you read is written by Paul. There is no arguement of this.

“and that is why I was sent as an APOSTLE and TEACHER of the Gentiles to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying, I am telling the truth”(1 timothy 2:7)

That is the verse you quoted and i will use it. Paul is saying that he was sent as an Apostle and a Teacher! An Apostle is defined by 1)any important early teacher of Christianity or a Christian missionary to a people
or 2) one of the original 12 disciples chosen by Christ to preach his gospel .

Paul was an apostle of Christ, one that was sent forward to teach the message. You can choose to accept this or deny it. Or you can take a phrase out of context and not understand it. I have repeatedly attempted to make it shown to you. But lets expand from your verse to include 1 timothy 2:5-7

5For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved, 7and that is why I was sent as an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles, to proclaim the message of faith and truth. I am not lying; I am telling the truth!

Christians believe in one God, we have established that, but we believe one God exists in the Trinity, we have shown proof of this. Here we have Paul writting about Jesus in one portion then using I in the next. Now if it was Jesus he was talking about he would have said Jesus not I.

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Wonder never end.who told you it wasn't jesus who says he is an Apostle.OK let it be so.
But, how about this one:"......Jesus on Nazareth was a MAN whose divine authority was clearly proven to you by all the miracles and wonders which God PERFORM throgh him........Acts 2:22.
Question: Whoever was sent by God, what is the name given to him? is it not an APOSTLE/PROPHET?
Look at the word PERFORM, this reflects that even the Power jesus uses it isn't his, but God's.

Please, be sincere when talikng.

Daniel Book is used alot to talk about Jesus pbuh. Its amazing how he lived in that time and knew about future. But first did Daniel really wrote his book? Did the one who wrote the book of Daniel live at the time he is talking about?

Lets begin with Daniel 1:1-2 "In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it. 2And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand,"
We see that Jerusalem was sorrounded by king of Babylon in the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim. King of Babylon sorrounded Jerusalem in the year 596 B.C or 567, and the third year of the reign ot Jehoiakim was at 606 B.B
Lets take a look at Kings2 24- 6 So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead. 7 And the king of Egypt came not again any more out of his land: for the king of Babylon had taken from the river of Egypt unto the river Euphrates all that pertained to the king of Egypt. 8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother’s name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 9 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father had done. 10 At that time the servants of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against Jerusalem, and the city was besieged. 11 And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it. 12 And Jehoiachin the king of Judah went out to the king of Babylon, he, and his mother, and his servants, and his princes, and his officers: and the king of Babylon took him in the eighth year of his reign.
The story contraddict with what Daniel book say. In kings2 we see that Jehoiachin was the king of not Jehoiachim when king of Babylon attacked, and it was a short period of 3 months, and a writer of history cant mistake such a mistake by non knowing the king in his time and what heppened in that time especially when it heppen such a big thing like war, such a mistake happen when the writer didnt live in same time, when the write write long time after things happened, especially when its so short time, the writer cant notice it. In knigs2 the writer lived at that time and knew who was the king and gave so specific information that only who live at that time can know it or a short time after it happened.
There is another problem, the age of Jehoiachin in kings2 is 18 years, while it contraddict with what written in Chronicales2 36:9 "Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: ", difference of 10 years in age, and 10 days more than what is written in knigs2 (the period he was king). The age was changed in now adays copies, it became 18 years, difference was so big, perhaps 10 days not so big. Another problem. In Jeremiah 22:18-19 "Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah; They shall not lament for him, saying, Ah my brother! or, Ah sister! they shall not lament for him, saying, Ah lord! or, Ah his glory! 19 He shall be buried with the burial of an ***, drawn and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem." It contraddict with Kings2 the end of Jehoiakim according Jeremiah was that he buried with the burial of an *** out of Jerusalem. A wrong prophecy, or Kings2 is wrong.
But Mistake of Daniel book is so dangerous.

Daniel 9:"1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem."
The writer of Daniel say I Daniel understood by books, its seems that the writer of this phrase read from onld books of Jeremiah, while they were at same time, and its impossible that Daniel got the books of Jeremiah, and to read them and write from them especially when the book of Jeremiah was taken as part of bible at 200 B.C. Beside Daniel suppose to get his words from God why does he need others books to read and to understand and then write. It seems that its some one who is reading from old books long time after Daniel. And Daniel perhaps he heared this this thing from Jeremiah but not his books, because books of Jeremiah were written after his death, read Jeremiah 25:1. Who is the writer of Daniel Book?

Bookd of Daniel is full with historical mistakes, and we see the writer write about the future so precise, while he mistake about the past, he mistake a critical mistakes about the time he lived in.

Lets see now the clouds and winds and the one who supposed to be God who fly between them.
Samuel 22:10-11 "He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet. 11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind."
here the one who they say he is God is riding on an angel, this angel is a little one with wings, search in google and see the form of this angel cherub, God is bigger than to be described with such word, one say God was ashemed, one dehydration, one bleeding, one died for us, one beaten, one eating, one God flying in clouds.
NLT Samuel2 22:11" Mounted on a mighty angel, he flew, soaring on the wings of the wind." The name of the angel vanished here, he became almighty, perhaps more respect in saying almighty, but does God ride angels and fly?
CEV Samuel2 22:11 You rode on the backs of flying creatures. You appeared with the wind as wings.
Angel vanished, they are plural now, and no specified creatures

here the one who they say he is God is riding on an angel, this angel is a little one with wings, search in google and see the form of this angel cherub, God is bigger than to be described with such word, one say God was ashemed, one dehydration, one bleeding, one died for us, one beaten, one eating, one God flying in clouds. No respect. All only to approve something that doesnt exist, when someone read bible we see specified numbers, we see names, animals names, citys, but God the canter of all doest present him self.
In old test God fight with Jacob and Jacob win, God wake up like drunk, God regret, God get tired.
God is God:
Surah 19 (called Mary, this chapter in Holy Quran talk about Mary pbuh, and respond people who said she made adultry, and show how honest she is and talk about Jesus pbuh) verse 88-96: 88] And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken (to Himself) a son 89] Certainly you have made an abominable assertion 90] The heavens may almost be rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in pieces, 91] That they ascribe a son to the Beneficent Allah. 92] And it is not worthy of the Beneficent Allah that He should take (to Himself) a son. 93] There is no one in the heavens and the earth but will come to the Beneficent Allah as a servant. 94] Certainly He has a comprehensive knowledge of them and He has numbered them a (comprehensive) numbering. 95] And every one of them will come to Him on the day of resurrection alone. 96] Surely (as for) those who believe and do good deeds for t them will Allah bring about love.
Surah 3 (Ale Omran, family of Mary pbuh) verse 79 "It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof."
Surah 5 verse 115 "And when Allah will say: O Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary)! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things."

This What every prophet say: surah 21:25 "And We did not send before you any messenger but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me." Thats how God present him self directly not by puzzle, or by trying to explain verses that can have alot of meaning.
May Allah guide me and all of you.

"DEITY is what all three PERSONS each completely is. My being a complete human does not crowd out your being a complete human. You and I are one nature, but two persons of that nature."
So there is nation of gods also, 3 gods. Doesnt seem monothism.

You said the Father no one heared him and saw him but the son yes which is another form of God. Well in Mathew 3:17 people heared voice of father, and that he was pleased with him.
Jesus pbuh is equal to his father? Who se should believe you or Jesus pbuh?
John 14:28 "... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
John 13:16 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."
And Jesus admit and say alot that he was sent from the father.
If as u said the son is form of father shouldnt be equal to him? beside if the father is same son, does this mean Mary pbuh was pregnant with father also, all toghether?
All i got from what you wrote that there is more than one God. Even the example you gave and i pasted above show that there is more than one God.
Trinity as known is The Father is God, the son is God, the holy spirit is God but they are not 3 Gods they are one God (not logic) .
if we accept the first part of trinity then we must agree that there are 3 gods, if we accept the second part then we must accept that the Father is part of God so and Son so and Holy Spirit (this idea mean that part of God died for humanity not whole God).
Jesus pbuh admit he doesnt know anything by him self, and he cant do any thingalone, and he was praying to God and he was sent by God and father is greater than him and he has God (John 20:17, first time i see God has God) all these things doesnt make you refute the idea that Jesus is God? or it doesnt affect his form as God?
Always there are explanatians about trinity that appeared and vanished and image and the most famous example was the Egg: once one (he said he got answer from priest) told trinity like egg there is the outside part and the white part and the yellow part and they form the whole God, the answer was simple-does that mean God is 3 parts? he didnt say any thing, he said the priest told me.
Simply trinity cant be accepted by logic, in bible we see all 3 in one place in same time and then they are not 3 but one, and then every one from them are whole God. Now the Father is not the whole one God, this is said by Mililalil. Another user said they are 3 parts, if trinity is logic and christianity has one simple definition for it that mind can accept wont be all this contraddiction between thoughts.
Thinking Good about is important, believing he is the most powerfull, the one the almighty, these thoughts are from the good deeds that man do is life and they are important they are center of belief. The canceled added verses you said dont infleuence the fact that trintiy exist, the sexual language said by God, believeing God died beaten, eat fight cry regret tired doesnt know bleed feel lonely, all this doesnt infleuence that Jesus pbuh is God.This is the problem, the idea that Jesus pbuh died for you and that Jesus pbuh is God made you speak bad about God, made you change bible made you throw bible behind you,, and describing God with words even mountaints get into pecies because of it, all this only to believe something that Jesus pbuh didnt say by Him self, even his words show the opposite. Romans 16:1-16 God didnt forget to say to Paul to deliver hello to people, even he mentioned them by name, while he forgot to present himself.
Good deeds make u enter eternal life and this thing said by Jesus pbuh and its the massege of all prophets, to believe in one God and to act well, if every one act as God ordered then life will be better, we cant live like that eating and sleeping and believeing Jesus made every thing for us, i cant do any thing, who said you cant enter heaven with your deeds.Paul said changed every thing by saying not good deeds make you enter heaven but the crucifiction, follow preists not Jesus pbuh?
May God guide us all and gather us with all his prophets pbu them in heaven

Explain to me why the Trinity is not logical?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html

i have posted this before, please read. It is a great explanation of the Trinity. I hope it helps and I pay that you will open your heart to this.

Also, when did Jesus say you enter Heaven through deeds? I think you misinterpreted the verse. Could you please post a small reply with the verse you refer to and a small response.

This is the explanation through which deeds will not get you into Heaven.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

I do not set aside the grace of God,for if righteousness be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!(Galatians 2:21)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

http://www.cornstalker.com/cartoons/...oons/gal2.html

If you could enter Heaven through deads, then Christ died for nothing...that says it all I think.

Despite the clear Biblical evidence for the Trinity, some have objections based on misunderstandings of Scripture.

Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:28). But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant. The same arguments apply to related passages about Jesus submitting to His Father’s will.

The word ‘better’ (kreitton) would have been used to describe superiority in nature if this is what had been meant. Indeed, kreitton is used to describe Jesus’ superiority in His very nature to the angels (Hebrews 1:4). The distinction can be illustrated in the human realm by the role of the Prime Minister—he is greater than us in position, but he is still a human being like us, so is not better in nature.

Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.

‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.

Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).

Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).

This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.

There is something in the world of linguistic, especially that which is developed by M.A.K. Halliday, and which is called Systemic Functional Grammar (the "opposition" of Chomskian linguistic), that I think can be used as a metaphor to "explain" the logic of the concept of "trinity", that is to say, the concept of "three but one, one but three, all at once"

One clause is realized in three ways: as a message, as an exchange, as a representation (or ideational). For example, the clause "the sky is blue" is realized in three ways.
1. As a message: blue is the color of the sky
2. As an exchange: the clause "the sky is blue" exists in a context of communication ( I tell you that the sky is blue, for example)
3. As a representation: the clause stands for a fact (that is, the fact of the sky and its being blue)

One clause in three functional realizations, or, metaphorically speaking, "personalities". What seperates the three is their realized functions.

...... umh. I think I will try again later. I am sleepy now...

Brother/Sister Shield&Sword.
Remamber what Allah(Swt) says about people like those people:"....He whom God(Allah) guides is the(rightly) guided, but he whom He leaves astray-never will you find for him a protecting guide(18:17).
Just pray for His guidance as He says we should: "Guide us to the straight path(1:6)
Then, if Allah permit, they will hear our/His call and follow a true path.
Please, i beg of you to try as much as possible to wind up this long argument.
By the way, what's your rael name? I am Muhsin.
take care.