What is love?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

no matter which is good for our country, i will try to find it, though yet i still have absolutely no idea. i am not complaining; i want to identify the problem, find its cause, and give resolution, which i still lack the knowledge to do.

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Very good then, Aragorn! ;)

nice talking to you.

I said nothing about being perfect or "a saint", nor did I say anything about expecting either in a lover.

This, I believe, is a big part of the problem.
I DID say that the act of loving someone necessarily requires respect and honor.
Since when does the simple act of treating someone you supposedly "love" with respect require sainthood?
Do you have such a depraved view of this so-called "love" as to not treat the one you love with respect?
"I am only human, after all - not a saint."
Do you have such a dim view of yourself and virtues that treating the one you "love" with respect is beyond your grasp?
Do you have such a low self-esteem that you do not expect, require and, in fact, demand your lover treat you with respect?
I am hardly talking about perfection.
I am not talking about people without faults.
I have not implied that a "good", "loving" or even "perfect" relationship is without disagreements.
In fact, the more you care for a person, the more likely you will disagree and argue.
If you care for the person's well-being and happiness and you witness behavior in your partner that you believe is detrimental to them somehow then the act of loving them requires that you will take a stand against such behavior.
This action is not a lack of respect, standing up against someone who is hurting themselves and not allowing it to continue without a fight is an act of the utmost respect and honor.
There is a great difference, however, between a nasty fight with personal attacks and disrespectful language and a heated, passionate argument.
The latter is an act of love, it is allowing your partner to be who they are and vice versa, while acknowledging differences between you.
The former, however, is intended to hurt your partner.
ANY act with the intention to hurt is simply not borne of love and is NOT an act of love.

I recognize that many relationships have raging rivers that require the painstaking effort of cooperating to build bridges to get past these rivers.
I also recognize, however, that without mutual respect these obstacles are extraordinarily difficult to surmount, if they are surmountable at all.

What happens to a relationship without mutual respect?
What happend when heated arguments cross that threshold to personal attacks intended to hurt?
I am sure many here have been there.
If you are not treated respectfully, you feel the need to protect yourself, so become defensive.
That defensiveness will grow and strengthen.
You begin to lose your faith in the trust you placed in this person, and righfully so.
Your defensiveness will inevitably escalate as your withdraw further, and what is elevated defensiveness, but offensiveness?
You go on the attack as well.
Fights happen more often, and lead to worse attacks.
This downward spiral continues until the relationship eventaully implodes.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that many people continue in the farce of a relationship even AFTER it implodes.
He is only human after all - not a saint.
She just had a bad day... again.
Bull****!
Have higher standards.
Have a bit more self-respect.
Have a bit more respect for others - especially those you care about.

Most of the people that I have known who stay in relationships without love stay because they have a serious lack of self esteem that manifests itself as either thinking they don't deserve better, can't get better or simply can't be happy unless in a relationship and this is what is here now.
That makes me sad.
THAT is not love.

Scheherazade,
I disagree with the sentiment of your quote. You do not love despite someone's faults, you love someone because of their faults.


Along another vain...
"Love" is wholly and painfully insufficient as a noun for so many reasons.
Not the least of which, all that is encompassed when people refer to what they feel as "love", should be so much more (and varied) than a single word could encompass.
I prefer to be more specific.
I care about someone's well-being.
I have compassion for someone.
I feel a strong sexual desire for someone.
I adore someone.
I would die to spare someone's life.
I would kill to spare someone's life.
etc...
"Love" (the noun) performs the same pathetic action that any other "all-encompassing" label performs.
It serves to qualify, quantify and per-package the vast breadth and depth of an extraordinarily complex, unique and personal experience.
It simplifies that which should most certainly not be simplified.
It limits, restrains and lends a deplorable disservice to the actual experience by boiling them down, distilling them and compartmentalizing them for mass consumption.

Again, love is a verb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn

I try not to blame her. She is one year older than me, which means she is graduating this semester and i will be one years later. maybe this is not a very big deal in western countries. but i think this is in china. China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money.
our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody.
However, not everybody has a fair chance. you have chane to struggle for your fortune, yet some many people don't even have to make money. they just use authority to get money.
as the disparity between the poor the the rich intensifies. the children of the poor are still poor, cause they can not afford education. And they can not get free meal like the rich's children. if you see a modern woman driveing a BMW, you will probably want, before i can get a job in Merril Lynch, the fastest way to have a BMW ofr my girl friend, ex-girl friend, is to marry a rich man, or you don't even need to marry him, if you know what i mean. these kinds of things are going on like cazy in Chinese universities.
Once, a friend of mine, who is half chinese, half American and born in Germany, asked me why in china all the agly men can get all the pretty girls. my answer was, unfortunately, some agly men happen to be rich men.
hope my country will be better off.
Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.
My English is not as good as your guys'. If you don't understand me on some points, just treat them as jokes.
world peace. No starvation. no war between Iran and USA. no between mainland China and Taiwan. No war between China and Japan. no war between Israel and Palestine. pray.

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(I haven't read all the posts in this thread so I hope i'm not repeating what's been said before)...
wow, you must be a very mature and good-natured guy if you try not to blame her...
I don't wanna be rude, but in the long run you're probably lucky she left you (no offence!)... i mean, it's not your duty to buy her a BMW. if she wants one let her work and earn her own money so she can buy one herself! can women get well-paid jobs in China? I think they have equal rights officially?? are there any liberated, independent women in China? if you want my advice, try to get to know women who can look after themselves. that way they won't expect you to break your back for them. They might be more difficult to get along with than old-fashioned women, but they will like you for who you are, not for materialistic reasons...

what is love??? i think there's as many answers to that question as there are couples.... I got to know my boyfriend at univ and first we were just friends... so it's wasn't very romantic or passionate, but that way we got to know each other before we got together, so we didn't have too many silly expectations... he's still like a very good friend plus some more... .. forget about sex.. it IS one of the most important aspects of a relationship, but if you like and respect someone very much it will sort itself out, no need to worry about it....

This song sums it up better than most.

Quote:

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The Verb 'To Love'

Todd Rundgren

Some people tell me that love is a feeling
or a possession
Somehow it seems so cold
And when they say love is sweet,
does it mean that you eat it?
Maybe you drink it,
does it fill up an empty hole?

I'm lookin' for a love and I may not find it
You know it doesn't mean a thing
without some action behind it

Please come home
I can hear them calling
Please come home
Please don't leave us all alone
Your mama and your papa are crying all alone
You better let it magnetize, learn to sacrifice
'Til we get the true version of
The meaning of the verb 'To Love'
What does it mean to love?

And when somebody needs love,
do they spend some money?
Say something funny,
ask for some tenderness?
And when you wanna touch of love,
do you lie on your back?
Stand on your head,
how do you feel it best?

I'm looking for a love with no strings attached
To take me like I am, that's the only catch

Please come home
I can hear them calling
Please come home
Please don't leave us all alone
Your wife and your lover are crying all alone
You better let it magnetize, learn to sacrifice
'Til we learn the true version of
The meaning of the verb 'To Love'

Does it mean any more,
the more you talk about it
Is it anymore real
if you jump around and shout it
I'm sick and tired of hearing
'bout everyone without it and
Too much talkin' sends me walkin'
Night is falling and everybody's calling for love

Everybody's lookin' for their one and only
It's only just a game 'cause they're scared to be lonely

Please come home
I can hear them calling
Please come home
Please don't leave us all alone
Your brothers and your sisters are crying all alone
You got let it magnetize, learn to sacrifice
'Til we get the true version of
The meaning of the verb 'To Love'
What does it mean to love?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by one_raven

I said nothing about being perfect or "a saint", nor did I say anything about expecting either in a lover.

This, I believe, is a big part of the problem.
I DID say that the act of loving someone necessarily requires respect and honor.
Since when does the simple act of treating someone you supposedly "love" with respect require sainthood?
Do you have such a depraved view of this so-called "love" as to not treat the one you love with respect?
"I am only human, after all - not a saint."
Do you have such a dim view of yourself and virtues that treating the one you "love" with respect is beyond your grasp?
Do you have such a low self-esteem that you do not expect, require and, in fact, demand your lover treat you with respect?
I am hardly talking about perfection.
I am not talking about people without faults.
I have not implied that a "good", "loving" or even "perfect" relationship is without disagreements.
In fact, the more you care for a person, the more likely you will disagree and argue.
If you care for the person's well-being and happiness and you witness behavior in your partner that you believe is detrimental to them somehow then the act of loving them requires that you will take a stand against such behavior.
This action is not a lack of respect, standing up against someone who is hurting themselves and not allowing it to continue without a fight is an act of the utmost respect and honor.
There is a great difference, however, between a nasty fight with personal attacks and disrespectful language and a heated, passionate argument.
The latter is an act of love, it is allowing your partner to be who they are and vice versa, while acknowledging differences between you.
The former, however, is intended to hurt your partner.
ANY act with the intention to hurt is simply not borne of love and is NOT an act of love.

I recognize that many relationships have raging rivers that require the painstaking effort of cooperating to build bridges to get past these rivers.
I also recognize, however, that without mutual respect these obstacles are extraordinarily difficult to surmount, if they are surmountable at all.

What happens to a relationship without mutual respect?
What happend when heated arguments cross that threshold to personal attacks intended to hurt?
I am sure many here have been there.
If you are not treated respectfully, you feel the need to protect yourself, so become defensive.
That defensiveness will grow and strengthen.
You begin to lose your faith in the trust you placed in this person, and righfully so.
Your defensiveness will inevitably escalate as your withdraw further, and what is elevated defensiveness, but offensiveness?
You go on the attack as well.
Fights happen more often, and lead to worse attacks.
This downward spiral continues until the relationship eventaully implodes.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that many people continue in the farce of a relationship even AFTER it implodes.
He is only human after all - not a saint.
She just had a bad day... again.
Bull****!
Have higher standards.
Have a bit more self-respect.
Have a bit more respect for others - especially those you care about.

Most of the people that I have known who stay in relationships without love stay because they have a serious lack of self esteem that manifests itself as either thinking they don't deserve better, can't get better or simply can't be happy unless in a relationship and this is what is here now.
That makes me sad.
THAT is not love.

Scheherazade,
I disagree with the sentiment of your quote. You do not love despite someone's faults, you love someone because of their faults.


Along another vain...
"Love" is wholly and painfully insufficient as a noun for so many reasons.
Not the least of which, all that is encompassed when people refer to what they feel as "love", should be so much more (and varied) than a single word could encompass.
I prefer to be more specific.
I care about someone's well-being.
I have compassion for someone.
I feel a strong sexual desire for someone.
I adore someone.
I would die to spare someone's life.
I would kill to spare someone's life.
etc...
"Love" (the noun) performs the same pathetic action that any other "all-encompassing" label performs.
It serves to qualify, quantify and per-package the vast breadth and depth of an extraordinarily complex, unique and personal experience.
It simplifies that which should most certainly not be simplified.
It limits, restrains and lends a deplorable disservice to the actual experience by boiling them down, distilling them and compartmentalizing them for mass consumption.

Again, love is a verb.

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YOU ARE RIGHT... THERE ARE STILL SOMETHING IN YOUR POST I AM A LITTLE BIT DAUBTFUL ABOUT, BUT BASICLY, YOU ARE RIGHT.

Though I did not read the post from S, it seems Scheherzade and One Raven are both only halfway there: You have to Love the parts you like about the beloved and love as well the parts you don't like. Otherwise, its not real Love and you best be moving on. Printed this out earlier today, says it as well as any words. David Bowie from Soul Love:

Love is careless in its choosing
Sweeping over cross a baby
Love descends on those defenceless
Idiot Love will spark the fusion
Inspirations have I none
Just to touch the flaming dove
All I have is my Love of Love
And Love is not Loving


Aragorn, hope that China works out, but what you describe is exactly what it is to be a stupid American: the ones who can use every means to have more money, more power, and more things. And the Earth an all of us living creatures suffer for it. One really has to focus themselves to have an intelligent or creative or, Loving path through this mess. But you'll meet friends along the way if you go...

A spanish author once wrote; "Love is the willingnss to extend oneself". I agree with that.

Love in the romantic sense is a biological mechanism to trap us into having sex and procreating. Love in the rational sense, is merely a sort of validated pride.
However, love in the poetic sense is the act of making yourself and someone (or something) else better through interaction which produces something that would never have been attained without the whole-hearted adherence to one specific goal by both or all of the parties. It isn't selfish nor is it selfless; it is self-full. If you think about it, for all people who claim to have a reason to live, in a broad sense it is the word used to identify that reason. Religious people claim to love God. Married people love their spouses. When you love is the only time you feel fully transcendent and more important than you know you could ever be. Its a bird's-eye view into your own soul, whereas all of the happiness is held in sight. It is the act of completely forgetting everything that you do not and cannot have. I've never actually been in love but I'd imagine that is what it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yizxik

I've never actually been in love but I'd imagine that is what it is.

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Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?

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:lol:



"love between us is something that surpassed the language of words" I forgot where I got this, but I always keep such an abstract entity of love before me. Proper silence might conceive the depth of love and preserve it as what it is. One can translate the silence into pictorial feelings. This reminds me also of some lines from Emily Dickinson:
To tell the Beauty would decrease
To state the Spell demean--
There is a syllable-less Sea
Of which it is the sign--

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?

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Does an expert on classical history need live
under the rule of a Roman emperor?

"I have little doubt that when St. George had killed the dragon he was heartily afraid of the princess." - The Victorian

"Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honour should decline." - Manalive

"The whole pleasure of marriage is that it is a perpetual crisis." - "David Copperfield,"

Although I passionately believe in love being from the depths of the heart and a covenant between two hearts I also thought there was some merit in the above. :D

Love is like the idea of Dao. (as in Dao in the Daoist sense) a sort of undescribable entity than any description does not acuratly describe it.

i think love is very silly and ruins a girl's/boy's life. just the fact that you know a boy or a girl(opposite sex) can cause problems. trust me. in my school i am knowm to be a very quite girl and make no problems. then i met this guy and ever since then i lost my bestest friend and other friends which i was really close to and every one started to change. only because i spoke with him and laughed with him. ever since then i hated boys ( no offence) because they caused me problems!!!!!!!!!!!!