Hamlet. Was he really mad?

Hi Janine. My post related exclusively to today's perception of madness. Mental illness, today, is assessed as a sufficient collection of negative behaviours.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Depressed most likely, over the death of his father and the 'all too hasty marriage' of his mother - understandable....

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Quite understandable in the circumstances - like almost all cases of depression.

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Originally Posted by Janine

...but he is not longing for his own death anywhere in the play

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There are oh so many quotes that suggest otherwise. For instance: "I do not set my life at a pin's fee"; "O that this too too solid/sullied/sallied flesh would melt, thaw, and resolve itself into a dew! Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd His canon 'gainst self slaughter"; "an unweeded garden, gone to seed"; "O cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right!"; and "Absent thee from felicity awhile, and in this harsh world draw thy breath in pain".

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Originally Posted by Janine

The ghost was seen by others; therefore, it was no hallucination!

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Or the mass hysteria of superstitious people in troubled times.

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Originally Posted by Janine

...it is not as erratic as first thought.

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Certainly - but mental illness is defined by how your peers perceive you, rather than by self assessment.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, it's tragic he mistakes him [Polonius] for his Uncle.

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If a mistake of such gravity happened today, the court would doubtless order a psychiatric assessment.

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Originally Posted by Janine

What sexual fantasies do you refer to specifically?

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Hamlet's obsession with sexual aspects of his mother's marriage would seem very odd today.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Quote: "Yet have I something in me dangerous, | Which let thy wiseness fear"

Not sure where this takes place in the play but if after he is slashed by Laertes' sword near the end I can see why he would say this...perfectly understandable.

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Hamlet speaks at Ophelia's funeral; not, later, during the sword fight.

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Originally Posted by Janine

most of the other characters in the play are a bit mad themselves!

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Arguably. :)

Hamlet's solitude slowly turns him mad, I think. He is pretty horrible to everyone and has turned his back on Denmark. In his solitude he contemplates some weighty issues and his preoccupation with them turns him mad. Let's face it, Hamlet's not the sort of guy you'd want in a crisis.

As for the Oedipal thing...it didn't scream out at me from the text. It's an interesting interpretation but one gained from looking beyond the text. However Hamlet certainly has some sexual hang-ups: maybe he might be a Puritan? He is repulsed and yet fascinated by Ophelia and his mother's incestuous relationship- the interest he takes in it is perverse. Like Iago, constant graphic and explicit language/images means that the character clearly has issues in that department.

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Originally Posted by kelby_lake

Let's face it, Hamlet's not the sort of guy you'd want in a crisis.

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To his credit though, with all others dead, Hamlet does save Horatio from the mayhem.

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Originally Posted by Gladys

Hi Janine. My post related exclusively to today's perception of madness. Mental illness, today, is assessed as a sufficient collection of negative behaviours.

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Hi Gladys.
Interesting; how are you qualified to define mental illness today? One can have a collection of negative behaviors and not be diagnosed with mental illness. Look at how crowded all our prisons are.

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Quite understandable in the circumstances - like almost all cases of depression.

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Strange, I just watched a video tonight which broke down the various depressive illnesses by a clinician. One was depression brought on by a traumatic life event, such as loss of a loved one, especially a parent. The expert said this type illness usally resulted in several months of depression and was not serious. In Hamlet's case, his mourning period before the start of the play and the sighting of the ghost, would most likely fall into this category of completely normal behavior. The events that happen in the structure of the play and drive the plot add more so to Hamlet's melancholy state, whereas he might have been lifted from it in time had not the ghost appeared. Mentally ill persons, suffering from chronic depression, usually have no sound reason for that depression, because mental illness is a brain disorder based on chemical imbalances, even damage to the brain itself. It is no different than a physical illness; this is what many people don't understand about the illness and there is a stigma even to this day. Modern technology is revealing many advances and seeing mental illness in a truly new light. Circumstances play less of a role in making a person mentally ill than does genes.

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There are oh so many quotes that suggest otherwise. For instance: "I do not set my life at a pin's fee"; "O that this too too solid/sullied/sallied flesh would melt, thaw, and resolve itself into a dew! Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd His canon 'gainst self slaughter"; "an unweeded garden, gone to seed"; "O cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right!"; and "Absent thee from felicity awhile, and in this harsh world draw thy breath in pain".

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Hamlet exclaims the first quote, while first encountering the ghost of his father. It would be understandable he would be in a state of shock and venture forth with little regard for his own life in order to connect once again with his beloved father. The second quote was also following a very stressful scene; thus totally understandable that he feels trapped his circumstances and wishes to escape from them.

"an unweeded garden, gone to seed" not only describes the marriage bed of his mother with his uncle but the corruption of the state of Denmark. He is reflecting on the fallen state of his kingdom...fortelling of it's inevitable future.

"Oh cursed spite, that ever I was born to set it right!" This quote shows the same thinking - being trapped in his new found situation and knowing he, Hamlet (the son of a king) now had the dread responsibility to set his father's murder straight. Who wouldn't wish they had not been born to deal with such a thing? Had he not reacted like this, I would have thought him mentally ill. A natural reaction for anyone.

"Absent thee from felicity awhile, and in this harsh world draw thy breath in pain....speaking to..."

felicity - means happiness, correct? I don't think he means happiness in the true sense of the word here, but at this point what would Hamlet have to live for? Everyone who ever meant anything to him is now dead and to top that off, he gets word on his death bed, that his cherished kingdom is ceased by Fortenbras. By this time death is the only option and the only solace for Hamlet and he knows it. He has come full circle in his exploration on mortality and death. He is speaking these final words to Horatio, in order for him to stay alive a little while longer in order to convey the story to the others; preserve the true history of the events. Hamlet is quite in his right mind in appealing to Horatio in this statement which further shows how sane Hamlet truly is.

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Or the mass hysteria of superstitious people in troubled times.

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I can't buy into that. The ghost was first perceived by 3 others, prior to Hamlet knowing anything about it. If one, I might agree, but three other capable guards; no, never.

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Certainly - but mental illness is defined by how your peers perceive you, rather than by self assessment.

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Mental illness is never defined by one's peers. It even takes a very good and qualified doctor to determine if a person is seriously and truly mentally ill. Mental illness is not an easy disease to diagnos, contrary to opinion.

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If a mistake of such gravity happened today, the court would doubtless order a psychiatric assessment.

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That is a different story and we live in a much different society, than the one that existed in Denmark during this period. People are arrested today for avenging others through violence. If there was no 'avengement' theme in Hamlet there would have been no point to the play; there would have been no play. It is also true that accidental deaths can occur, even within our society and be exonerated. For instance, if someone was to break into your house and threaten you and you shot them; an investigation would take place and you might be exonerated due to self-defense. There are many different circumstances and who is to say who would be evaluated, pyschiatrically speaking. How did Hamlet know that whoever was hiding behind the aris would not kill Hamlet himself. Is it normal to hide from someone like that?

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Hamlet's obsession with sexual aspects of his mother's marriage would seem very odd today.

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Like Kelby, I have never bought into this. I think the things he says concerning his mother's incestuous relationship with his uncle are born out of suspicion and anger at their too hasty marriage and his the fact his uncle most likely murdered his father.

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Hamlet speaks at Ophelia's funeral; not, later, during the sword fight.

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Yes, right after he's been attacked by Laertes and nearly strangled. I guess you or me or anyone might react the same way. Also, it follows directly after his return from the ship to Denmark; with his new knowledge that his uncle had send direct orders to have him executed in England. I imagine if we all kept our wits about us entirely at this time we would be pretty impervious to anything or any emotion. I think Hamlet acts within the normal range of a human being in suffering; not always seemingly logical, but certainly understandable.

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Arguably. :)

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You know I do not agree. So, the uncle is totally sane? One could say he needs the psychological examination! He is driven by lust and greed and he is maniuplative and vicious and cunning; he has a lot of negative attributes in my book.

If you were to style Hamlet as a sort of Oedipus, you'd probably have to accept an Ophelia/Laertes attraction too, otherwise it just becomes a quick answer to Hamlet's madness. I think most people who buy into the Oedipal thing do so because they see Hamlet as being like Shakespeare and Shakespeare's wife was older than him- but again, that's looking beyond the text.

At the surface, Hamlet is feigning madness. This madness is in the original Hamlet story. Why would Hamlet do this? The text is unclear. Conjecturing,this feigning is on the one hand defensive; to convince the king he is not enough of a threat to dispose of, and to mask his body language because in such a closed community as Elsinore it would be impossible otherwise to hide his feelings. OTOH the madness is offensive in that Hamlet may confuse and flush out the king in some act of villainy Although this strategy appears rather passive, the ghost seems to concur with it, urging Hamlet's companions to swear to abide by his request that they not disclose their knowledge that Hamlet is only feigning madness.

So far so good. Now we factor in Ophelia. Clearly she throws Hamlet, causing him to slip, when he says "-- all but one -- shall live" (iii,i,148). This utterance seals his fate, as Claudius discerns the meaning exactly and decides forthwith to send him to England, and his doom. Ophelia, whom one would expect to know Hamlet exceptionally well, immediately appears quite convinced Hamlet is mad. "Oh what a noble mind is here o'erthrown".

Ophelia is either wrong, right, or deceiving. If she is wrong, then she is a dumb blond, and one wonders what Hamlet is doing chasing after her. If she is right, then Hamlet has lost it. If she is deceiving, then she is indeed a clever girl, understanding exactly what is happening and attempting to protect Hamlet by throwing Claudius off the scent. She has strong motives; her loves well-being, and eventually the Danish throne.

Finally, there is the ghost to consider. It is a rather catholic ghost. It is not out of hell, lost to redemption, but in purgatory, getting itself fit for heaven. One wonders what it is doing urging Hamlet on to revenge, with rather a strong possibility of his eternal damnation. If it came out of hell, then this point would be moot. But how could a good ghost have any business urging Hamlet to revenge it?

Before Hamlet even sees the ghost, he is contemplating suicide. "Oh that this too too sullied flesh would melt". Could it be that urging Hamlet to focus on revenge is somehow good for his soul? It is noteworthy that the only other time the ghost intervenes is when Hamlet visits his mother. It claims that "This visitation is but to whet thy almost blunted purpose" however it is mainly concerned for Gertrude, especially her soul. Indeed Hamlet has been particularly active of late; staging the play, working himself up to a frenzy with his "now could I drink hot blood" soliloquy, sparing Claudius at his prayers but taking out Polonius by mistake. Perhaps the ghost mainly desires to motivate Hamlet, but to be effective, needs to camouflage its true purpose.

One would equate Hamlet's actual madness with the state of grace of his soul. To cater for the ghost's motivation, it could be assumed that Hamlet is going mad in act 1 before he has met the ghost, that the purposefulness of revenge stabilizes his condition, that feigning madness lets him find an internal equilibrium and a means of deflecting his madness outwards. This would make Ophelia an accurate witness in the nunnery scene, but raises severe questions concerning their courtship. I find it not understandable that Hamlet could be annihilating himself and also engaged in the extremely optimistic activity of courting Ophelia.

I wouldn't call his relationship with Ophelia optimistic...he's not exactly the model boyfriend. In fact, there isn't any real indication of why they're together.

peter_ga, interesting post. I will try to get back to it later tonight. You bring up some good points or at least ones worth investigating. kelby lake, I think we are just not privy to how Ophelia and Hamlet's realationship is; except to say if you read her defense of her Lord Hamlet to her father and also her references to Hamlet to her brother, you will get some bit of an impression about their love affair. If you read between the lines carefully in the Ophelia/madness scene you also get the impression their relationship was not celebate and that he may have promised her to wed. I think they were quite involved considering the depth of the poetry he wrote to her.

peter_ga, welcome to the forum!

Yep, Ophelia certainly seems like the maiden defiled. She gets worried when Hamlet's having his mad episode and walking around half dressed so who knows what turned her mad?...

As an aging misogynist my views on Ophelia are probably quite suspect. Men, whom other men delight not, cannot consider this character without projecting their idealized female on to her. Nevertheless I shall present my range of alternatives and develop her impact on the play accordingly.

We have the Mary Ann Summers take; the simple kindly conservative girl raised by country people, who knows the names of all the flowers and what's what. Hamlet has told her he loves her, and she believes him. Her father tells her to drop him, and she obeys. Overwhelmed by all the attention, she obeys her father and Claudius to approach Hamlet in his madness, to talk to him. When Hamlet teases her at the play, she catches the innuendo immediately and tells him he is naughty, though letting him lay his head in her lap, which to her is completely innocent. When Hamlet insists he loved her not, she replies "I was the more deceived", ie you could have fooled me. She takes Hamlet's chiding not a bit personally, concerned only for him. Guys love that.

Now we move on to her Ginger Grant aspect. Is she a supermodel of medieval Danish society? Hamlet says she is fair, Claudius says she is pretty. (I recall somebody alluding to her celebrity status, possibly by Laertes when she is mad or dead, but I can't find it.) She is the daughter of the King's councilor and spy-master, and brother of the man who raised a rebellion that threatened the King in a couple of days. She has won the heart of the heir to the throne, but not the hand. At the start of the play, her father is forbidding her to see her love. How did Polonius find out, we ask? "'Tis told me" (i.iii.90) starts Polonius.

"'Tis told me." Its on points like this that Shakespeare is most infuriating. Does this idle chatter start from Hamlet, a servant, a chaperone, -- or Ophelia. What does Ophelia stand to gain? What if she knew her fathers prohibition was likely? What could she reasonably expect to happen? If Hamlet loved her, he would be forced to declare himself and to propose. Of course something like this happens, after much delay, and her father, instead of confronting Hamlet after the closet visit as she would have expected, goes instead to the king.

If this is indeed Ophelia attempting to initiate the next step in their relationship, it is impossible to do anything but admire her initiative, as the rules of courtship were such that she was unable to even say "I love thee" without risking impropriety and calumny. She certainly has the Queens approval, a not inconsiderable achievement.

Note that she positively exceeds her father's intentions when it comes to obeying him regarding denying herself to Hamlet. "have you given him any hard words of late?" her father inquires. This snippet indicates Ophelia is either so dense and timid as to bely her spirited rebuttal to Laertes and her winning of Hamlet's and the Queen's approval, or she has at least welcomed if not engineered the whole prohibition to gain a commitment from Hamlet.

Of course Hamlet responds after much delay, and poorly, after two months with his bizarre closet visit, and no doubt after she has crossed paths with him often enough, and after she has given up. She is sincere, though still forgiving and hopeful, with her "when givers prove unkind" line, because Hamlet has failed to deliver on his vows of love. He has fallen into a kind of self-pitying blaming type of attitude with his "nymph" remark.

As I mentioned above, she is attempting to convince anyone listening that her love is mad, perhaps trying to protect him, in the Nunnery scene. In the play, it is her line "You are as good as a chorus, my Lord" which seems like an attempt to stop Hamlet baiting Claudius, for his own good, which would indicate a high degree of perception. (Zefferelli gives this line to Claudius.)

Of course she fails to get Hamlet to propose, fails to protect him from Claudius in the nunnery scene, and fails to defuse the play-in-a-play scene. Nevertheless, she emerges with dignity as a perceptive power-player, effects a reconciliation of sorts with Hamlet, and it was all so close to a happy ending.

Finally there is the "minist'ring angel" side to her. She tells white lies in the nunnery scene, denying her father is there when she knows he is listening, attempting to defuse a crisis. She uses her political skills only to positive purpose. The initial relationship with Hamlet one suspects was initiated by her pity and kindness to the deteriorating Hamlet, probably turned by him from a friendship to courtship out of gratitude to her. One feels the Queen senses this aspect to her and this is how she gains that most important regard. She seems to be totally aware of all the undertows in the nunnery and play scenes, and actively engages to defuse everything, though partially failing. If Hamlet would have made a worthy king, then Ophelia would have been a worthy Queen, as she displays political sense and great kindness.

Actually Shakespear was secretly intrested in Vampires and vampire mythology, which he tried to incorporate into his works as sublty as possible! I read that Hamlet was one of his first works where he really let his belif in vampires show, it's pretty obvious if you read it!