The Gospel of St Thomas (Christ's own Gospel?)

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Originally Posted by andrewoberg

@Dark Star: Is your handle related to the stunning Grateful Dead song?

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Yes, in part. A bit off topic, but which recording are you thinking of? The one off of Live/Dead?

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@Others--especially those defending Gnosticism: Are there really still Gnostics out there? I was under the impression that they had all died out or been absorbed into other sects by the 3rd century (and necessarily so by the time the Council of Nicea met). Was there a long-standing underground Gnostic church? Or is it a modern revival of the ancient faith?

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Yes, there are Gnostics out there and the religion is growing. As for the historical issue...I've seen claims of Gnosticism going underground and surviving through the ages, but my understanding is that the modern movement is in fact a revival of the ancient faith rather than anything having direct ties to a secret group of gnostics passing down the secrets through the years, or something along those lines. You would be surprised at the current flowering of and attempt to re-construct ancient, formerly dead religions. Kemeticism, for example.

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Originally Posted by Dark Star

Yes, in part. A bit off topic, but which recording are you thinking of? The one off of Live/Dead?

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Any recording of Dark Star is stunning, imo. The one on Live/Dead is indeed breath-taking, but that one was tinkered with in the studio. For pure live recordings, I guess my favorite would be from The Complete 1973 Winterland Recordings.

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Yes, there are Gnostics out there and the religion is growing. As for the historical issue...I've seen claims of Gnosticism going underground and surviving through the ages, but my understanding is that the modern movement is in fact a revival of the ancient faith rather than anything having direct ties to a secret group of gnostics passing down the secrets through the years, or something along those lines. You would be surprised at the current flowering of and attempt to re-construct ancient, formerly dead religions. Kemeticism, for example.

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I suspected as much, but am still a bit surprised. Has mainstream Christianity really become so tasteless to the faithful? On the other hand, maybe it's been headed in that direction for some time now, thinking of all the fundamentalist groups and whatnot...

Any new cults of Mithra?:svengo:

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Originally Posted by andrewoberg

Any recording of Dark Star is stunning, imo. The one on Live/Dead is indeed breath-taking, but that one was tinkered with in the studio. For pure live recordings, I guess my favorite would be from The Complete 1973 Winterland Recordings.

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I haven't listened to Winterland in a very long time (I only have the DVD), I should go dig something up.

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Any new cults of Mithra?:svengo:

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I realize this is intended at least partly as sarcasm, but Zoroastrianism is making a comeback, most strongly in Iran.

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Originally Posted by Dark Star

I haven't listened to Winterland in a very long time (I only have the DVD), I should go dig something up.

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Let me know what you find! You could also check the Archives or one of the trader sites for other versions. I probably have a couple dozen "Dark Stars" in my collection.

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I realize this is intended at least partly as sarcasm, but Zoroastrianism is making a comeback, most strongly in Iran.

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Yes, that was fully sarcastic.:nod: Very interesting about Zoroastrianism, though. I know Persia/Iran is the ancient home of that religion, but thought that Islam had almost an exclusive hold on the faith of modern Iranians.

What do you make of the argument that Judaism's concepts of an afterlife and evil god/devil came from their contact with Zoroastrianism while in Persia?

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Originally Posted by andrewoberg

Yes, that was fully sarcastic.:nod: Very interesting about Zoroastrianism, though. I know Persia/Iran is the ancient home of that religion, but thought that Islam had almost an exclusive hold on the faith of modern Iranians.

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You would think so, but apparently both Atheism and Zoroastrianism are on the rise in Iran. People seem to be becoming disenchanted and either exploring their past or looking to have a future. Not going further into that it since it heads into political territory, though.

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What do you make of the argument that Judaism's concepts of an afterlife and evil god/devil came from their contact with Zoroastrianism while in Persia?

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It sounds like a sensible argument to me, but I have not done research on this particular subject in a couple of years so it's not something I could competently debate at this point. Too bad, a few years back I could have pointed out some books on this subject. Now I can't remember any of them.:svengo:

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Originally Posted by Dark Star

It sounds like a sensible argument to me, but I have not done research on this particular subject in a couple of years so it's not something I could competently debate at this point. Too bad, a few years back I could have pointed out some books on this subject. Now I can't remember any of them.:svengo:

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Yeah, it's funny how quickly we forget things once we stop using them. My undergraduate senior thesis was on Gnosticism, but that was over ten years ago now. I actually re-learned a lot reading this thread. Yikes!:eek:

There is so much that I would like to delve into, but I will not highjack the thread. The OP asked the following:

1) The validity of the scrolls, do you believe this to be Christ's Gospel. Yes, but I am not a sola scriptura reader, so inspired, repeated through time verbally and then copied and recopied, translated into different dialects/languages.
2) The impact this scroll has upon the structure of the Church, More specifically the following extract " Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." This is not a new concept. Look at John 1:1-5 " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." This is where the 'word incarnate' or 'the word made man' comes from.
3) Whether or not you feel this specific scripture has a place in the teaching of christianity? I think all texts have a place; however, one need be careful how one exposes it to others as well as the exegesis presented with it.

I wrote a really long explanation to the quote of Jesus (#114) and it disappeared.

I am new on here and don't know what happened to it?

Any help? I know next time I will copy it before I hit "post" that's for sure!

Thanks,
AnnaMarie

Hello and I am glad that I have found this group. I am hoping to learn more and also hopefully share some things with you from MY travels.

Pertaining to the question posed about the line:

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
Well, MY take on this is a problem with translation, as always is, and that we need remember "traditions" and "customs" of those times. I do believe I remember that back in Jesus' time, women were not allowed into the temples. So it appears that Jesus disagreed with this "custom" and was to disguise Mary as a man to that she could enter the temple with Christ and His disciples. (Which I also believe the translation for "Heaven" in this sense is to mean "Temple" or some place of worship where only men are allowed.) Also, some think that Jesus made Mary one of His disciples!

Also, even in our times now, in the Middle East, woman are banned to expose any of their "form" as a woman - they are to hide the fact they are women by their clothing. They cover their hair, their face, etc. Woman are banned to enter places of worship where only men may go. So these "customs" are still being honored, to a big degree, in our 21st Century.

I do NOT believe that Christ is telling all of us to get sex-change operations in order to enter Heaven! Heavy common sense is needed in translating these Scrolls in their Aramaic language.

So, there is my 1st post. Sorry, if someone already said this - I admit to NOT reading all the too numerous pages of posts regarding this issue.

I do have another question, besides wanting feedback on my idea of this line #114, that is; where can I find the full and latest translation of the entire Scrolls? I would really appreciate reading them in their entirety.

One more thing. The movie Stigmata changed my life. It came to be the final piece I needed to end my "trek" of finding myself. It was/is a very powerful movie that moved me and my son in ways I cannot even express. It exposed ideas that I have had thoughts of since childhood. It, the movie, and especially the Scrolls, brought my beliefs of God, Jesus, The Disciples, Heaven and the Church, all into a light that made sense to me, finally! I found peace with it all.

That's it for now. Hope to hear some feedback on this! Thanks for reading me.

AnnaMarie

I think the idea that woman should become men is misleading. I think the idea was more about dealing with men and dealing with women. I guess that there was quite a separation of the sex's at that time and one text would not have been accepted and a womens version doesn't exist. The premises dose though I believe.

I am joining this forum because I have always appreciated my ability to read and have developed some skill in writing. It is my intention to take part in interesting discussions as I may, with an especial interst in the Gospel of Thomas, which is the subject that originally drew me here. The written word is not only a beautiful reality, but it is also a vehicle for thought and ideas, philosophy and a means by which our loves can be expressed. I have a Ph.D. ABD (all but dissertation) and I have been looking for work for six years. If that does not inspire a need for intrinsic beauty, I do not know what would. I hope to learn from other members of this site as well as, hopefully, leave some seeds for thought for others. Let us feast on a banquet of collaborative expression. After years of working to create a new voice, I have decided to identify with my voice and use it creatively and usefully.

[QUOTE=Melancholia;119319]


Melancholia; you have to remember it was the time of male thinking and doing. Women were literally second class citizens. How many times have you heard of a male being stoned for being a gigolo? Yet a woman who spoke out , criticized or committed adultery were, and frequently. Jesus spoke to appease his closest followers (disciples) as he had a difficult task in performing his mandate to create a new way of thinking in changing the sometime very harsh Jewish mindset (beliefs). So in saying "Look, I will guide her to make her male" could have simply meant her way of thinking in the day when her thoughts should have been in line of the men, "so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males" {[resembling] is a key word here} could have simply meant once again following the precepts and politics of the day, of male dominance over all, God created Adam and from Adam woman. Also in the translation Jesus' true intention may have been lost in the interpretation while translating from Aramaic to the first language translation base on to the next and that could be a folly in itself. Just look at modern translations from English to French to German and then Japanese. Error prone? Yes! Translations from a dead language is a guess at best. If you listen to what Jesus taught to the multitudes and apply that to his private words with his disciples, he could have said; "Look, I will guide her to be one of us (a disciple) so that she may become a living spirit resembling all of you (disciples)". This would sound like Jesus speaking. Remember he spoke to the crowd preparing to stone an adulteress, saying "Let you who have not sinned cast the first stone". Jesus revered woman as the spring from which all man comes". In my mindset that is very high on the ladder of importance.

I do believe that all should hear or read the first hand words of Jesus (Gospel of Thomas), rather than centuries old translation and retranslation of we have been taught. The scrolls used to defined Catholic Bible (a political document), was designed to bring new followers in to a new faith (Christianity by mans definition), a faith to appease the old beliefs and conversion of non-Christian practices. Once accomplished and then practiced for centuries, it led Christians to polarized in their way of thinking. Now is the world of the 21st Century it is time to let the individual find meaning of their own, and let common sense prevail.

May the blessings of our Lord reign upon you.

I know this is an old thread but i hope this can be of some use to someone!

Here is the Saying in question:
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female

This saying is actually mentioned in the bible Galatians 3:28-29 which says:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.