Half way through!!!! You are a fast reader! Hehehehe you have to bare with me since i am such a slow poke :D
I have finished the first chapter :thumbs_up
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Half way through!!!! You are a fast reader! Hehehehe you have to bare with me since i am such a slow poke :D
I have finished the first chapter :thumbs_up
The first chapter has some of the most beautiful descriptions in the book, I think.
Hello Manolia and amalia - Great to see both of you here! Pensive will arrive soon. She emailed me today.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
Virgil, glad you can pop in and out and I think somethings will definitely come back to you as we discuss. I understand that you can't fully tackle another book. Yes, amelia - the descriptions in the book certainly marvelous and beautiful. I love Lawrence's descriptions of nature the best. Apparently, you are a fast reader, so we don't want to disappoint, but maybe give a few more days to let others get into reading the book. Some have only just found out about this thread. Don't worry, Manolia, you will have time to catch up. I am still finishing up the other L book I am reading, but I can accomplish that tonight (I hope). Mine will be a second reading, anyway. I do remember much of the book. Also, I scanned much commentary on the book - really good stuff to add to our discussions. Virgil send me (lended me a book) on who's who in Lawrence's work. This should aid us also and make the book more interesting. I think all this will make for a great discussion, don't you? I am excited! I have long wanted to discuss this book in-depth with someone. This will be a great group.:thumbs_up
Yes i agree with both of you. The descriptions are pretty tense. I liked the two scenes where the breach in their relationship is described. I also liked very much the part where Mrs Morel is finally disillusioned.
Janine and everyone else, i have spotted the first flower referances:
Question:Quote:
She became aware of something about her. With an effort she
roused herself to see what it was that penetrated her consciousness.
The tall white lilies were reeling in the moonlight, and the air was
charged with their perfume, as with a presence. Mrs. Morel gasped
slightly in fear. She touched the big, pallid flowers on their petals,
then shivered. They seemed to be stretching in the moonlight.
She put her hand into one white bin: the gold scarcely showed
on her fingers by moonlight. She bent down to look at the binful
of yellow pollen; but it only appeared dusky. Then she drank a deep
draught of the scent. It almost made her dizzy.
......
When she came to herself she was tired for sleep. Languidly she
looked about her; the clumps of white phlox seemed like bushes spread
with linen; a moth ricochetted over them, and right across the garden.
Following it with her eye roused her. A few whiffs of the raw,
strong scent of phlox invigorated her. She passed along the path,
hesitating at the white rose-bush. It smelled sweet and simple.
She touched the white ruffles of the roses. Their fresh scent
and cool, soft leaves reminded her of the morning-time and sunshine.
She was very fond of them. But she was tired, and wanted to sleep.
In the mysterious out-of-doors she felt forlorn.
Aren't lilies supposed to be a symbol of death???
I think so, manolia, yes.I remember when we used to read Jacobean Theatre and the lilies were emphasised as such.
And Janine, my favourite "Lawrence" descriptions exist in "The Rainbow". Especially those in the chapters of the "child" Ursula.
manolia, thanks for quoting that. Good observation on your part and suggesting the significance of the lilies. I am thinking now of Easter and the Easter lilies - the pure white ones. It is funny but when you quoted this I don't recall reading it at all. Gee, now I can't wait to pick up the book once again - it will feel like a long lost friend, a really good old friend. Books can bring comfort in the words sometimes and I found reading just these lines comforted me and brought me closer to a core of truth about life and how we feel looking at the beauty in a lovely flowers. It is a sensitive and lovely writing - these two paragraphs.
amalia , thanks, too, for you comments and supporting the idea of death being significant for the emphasis on lily, and backing that idea up with the Jacobean reference. Probably in Shakespeare we can also find many or some reference's to lilies and death. He made use of a lot of flowers and their significance. A friend of mine made a quilt on all of Shakespeare's flowers. I thought that was interesting.
It has been eons since I read "The Rainbow" and it is on my list of L books I must re-read, perhaps after this book or after we all read "Lady Chatterly's Lover" - although I have already read that book twice. I think I shall have a totally different perspective when re-reading "The Rainbow". I think this will also have to be one we eventually discuss in this forum, don't you? In the meantime, I will have to check out those chapters "Child" that you mention. They sound interesting.
There are also some stunning descriptions in Lawrence's first published novel "The White Peacock"...I read that one last year and liked it, although it is not as developed as "Sons and Lovers". I still go back to some of the paragraphs and re-read them - they are so lovely and full of deeper meaning.
Good start to this discussion. :thumbs_up Hope I can dig up something more to add tonight.
Any Lawrence masterpiece is included in my favourite-book list. The way he depicts complex human emotions, and especially his boldness with sexuality, is astonishing. I cannot forget the "fight scene" in "Women In Love"...
That's why I like his works so much. He not only makes the characters vivid and real-like with thеsе psychological descriptions, he gave then unusual deepness. The complex characters he creates are so interesting and they aren't alike. He doesn't use some characters that are more like one person in different patterns, all his characters are different and genuine, they are all unique and still bound by the Lawrence tendency to make them as complex as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
Wonderful, amalia! I have finally met another avid Lawrence fan. I think Manolia is becoming one quickly and Pensive as well and a few others. I am delighted. I fully agree with you. I think Lawrence has a number of masterpieces, to say the least. He was quite a unique author. I cannot forget several key scenes in "Women in Love" - first the drowning scene - particularly the part when the couple is found intertwined in the lake and mud, second the wrestling scene you mention, also the scene when Birkin goes off into the fields - was that the height of sensuality? I think one of the last scenes in the snow with Gerald going off by himself is simply awesome, brilliant, heart-breaking. All these scenes are so graphic and stay with the reader for a long time, maybe even forever. Lawrence paints such a vivid and indellible impression on one's mind and sensibilities, don't you think? He penetrates ones very soul with these images. I still think often of everyone of those scenes.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
Manolia and Amalia, I have now read about 15 pages of the beginning of "Sons and Lovers". I enjoyed every word last night. I am anxious to resume tonight and get to the part Manolia quoted about the flowers.
What strikes me in these first pages is the way in which Lawrence presents his characters - the characters of the mother and the father and their relationship. If you notice the first few years seeme to be happy years for both of them and then crept in the discontent and the problems - financial seemed to be the first and then the issue of Mr. Morel's drinking problem. From the beginning Lawrence shows us that the two married people are quite different in background, attitudes, refinement, and personality.
Lawrence also fills these beginning pages with the tone and atmosphere of the area where they live with a keen sense of things changing and more mines and collieries being established and encrouching on the land and the beauty of nature. Already we can feel the ugliness of industrialisation and the mining community, that later occuppied much of Lawrence's themes in his writing. The fact of the man's love of dancing and being outgoing and exerburent is also quite evident as the wife, in contrast, is more retiring and does not let herself go with the dancing and such. She is more introverted and the husband more of an extrovert. The mismatch is evident. Also explored in this short amount of pages is the interference that has been going on behind the wife's back as to the financial position of the couple so that we see the husband has not been honest with his wife. His mother is still protecting him and saving him from ruin, and the wife has been unaware of this deceit up until now. Now obviously, a sense of resentment will set in.
Please let me know of your impressions, also, of the first part of the book. I hope this sounds accurate. I was just rambling on with my thoughts and my impressions so far.
I have gotten several PM's from people about this thread and the short story thread. Pensive will be joining us for both. Quark is busy with advanced studies and will be taking part when he can. Virgil will be popping in from time to time, as he is quite busy now with his job and real life;) If I left anyone out, I am sorry. I have to go back and check my PM box. Opps -Yes, I did forget to mention someone. Joining us will be the amazing reader, Alexei....she reads at a fast pace, so watch out for her, gang. I communicated with her in another thread and she is very enthused about joining both groups; said she would be reading for some discussion sometime next week.
What have always troubled me-from the first time I read the book until now that I'm re-reading- is the relationship of Paul's parents. I dare to say that there is a certain aura of passion between them. As you said, Janine, there are two people that couldn't be more different. Perhaps, it is the passion of the "opposite". Is there love?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexei
You are absolutely right, Alexei!
How funny - I just revised my post and there you appeared, Alexei - I was thinking of you and added you into the names. You must have read my mind. Anyway, how great to see you here! :thumbs_up and discussing already. We have such a great group this time around!
And I fully agree with what you have written about L's characters being complex and none two alike. Very well expressed!
amalia, I think it will take much time to answer that question you poss, as to whether the mother and father truly love each other. I do think passion did exist at one time.
On with the book!
I have been thinking on Amalia's question and the resume by Janine and there is something that strikes me as interesting when we compare The morels relationship with the one between Gerald and Gudrun in "Women in Love" (I hope you don't mind that I am directing my post to comparing with other Lawrence's works). The relation love-hate in the two couples relations seems interesting to me, after in both them the partners are actually more like antagonist. Yet while between Gerald and Gudrun this antagonism take the shape of some kind of hatred, between the Morels is different, Mrs. Morel is more like disappointed and hurt, she doesn't actually try to fight back. That makes me think that she actually loves him at least at the beginning of the book (there is a certain point in the novel when the author said that she just start to reconcile because she doesn't love him anymore), because she is a strong person and otherwise she would have tried to do something to fight back, as it was in the case Gerald/Gudrun.
Janine, thanks for the great introduction. It's very kind:)
And I have a good news - I am planning to read "Odour of Chrysanthemums" tonight :) Soon I will be ready to join the discussion.
Alexei, no problem comparing, but don't give too much of the novel away, or the ending. I usually do the same thing. I like to compare the stories and the novels. Oops, just realised I gave away a few scenes in my earlier post; hope anyone who did not read WIL did not notice. I know that Manolia read WIL and so did a few others. I don't think that Pensive has, however. I agree with your observations. It seems that Mrs. Morel gives in after a time and then directs her concentration and love towards her sons - thus the title - "Sons and Lovers" and the main themes of the book. She become somewhat obsessed in her sons and so she redirects her love to them, which eventually is felt as a smothering type love. I do think that the relationships in each novel have their similarities and then again their extreme differences. I do think the initial attraction for the Morals was the opposite attributes they saw in each other. Opposites do seem often to attract to make up for the missing element in one person - perhaps one person is quiet and the other more outgoing. One sees that quality and is attracted by it. However, often this combination does not have staying power or permanence. Much about life and relationships can be learned from reading Lawrence's work. We don't always act sensible or logical either and often Lawrence explores this aspect of human nature. I think this is what draws people to his writings. We see people fully exposed - the good and the bad, the pretty and the ugly...it is a truthful assessment of how people are and how they react to each other. I think Mrs. Moral settles finally, into a very inert state of being with her husband and that relationship, but first, I think the relationship is quite turbulent. Perhaps it is a sort of love/hate relationship similiar to Gerald and Gudrun in WIL. The Morels go through many stages and we see the changes in both, and then when the children arrive things further change in their relationship to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexei
Alexei, so glad you found the thread and are participating. You seem very enthusiastic - I like that! Glad you will read the O or C story tonight. I will also try to re-read it or partly tonight. You will see the connection to "Sons and Lovers" right away. I have some biographical background on the story concerning Lawrence's mother and his grandmother. This should be of some interest. I will look that up, also. Thanks for your compliments on my introduction.
I am becoming a fan of D H Lawrence :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Go go Janine!! I have read the first three chapters (not much, work gets in the way lately).
Yes they are pretty different the Morels. That differance is what attracted them to each other i think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Mr Morel admired Mrs Morel because "she was very lady like" and he used to speak reverentially to her, using "thous and thines".
Mrs Morel was fascinated by his warmth and liveliness. She came form a puritan family, where men and especially her father (a short description is being given) are very restraint and silent.
Janine, i think their true happiness lasted only a few months.
That's exactly what caught my interest. What i loved in "Women in love" was the dreary and bleak setting, which depicts Lawrence opinion concerning indusrialisation. Same setting here too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hmmmm..good question.Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
I believe that whatever love there is, it is very superficial.
The two people got together because they were merely atracted by certain things in each other's personality (see above what i wrote to Janine). There wasn't any long lasting acquaintance between them, they kinda rushed in a thoughtless marriage.
Nevertheless, it seems that a kind of love has existed and it is apparent by Mrs Morel thoughts. In certain parts, especially when Mr Morel is ill, we can see Mrs Morel talking to herself and saying that "she didn't want him dead. She still wants him for herself (putting aside the fact that he is the breadwinner)". The same when Mr Morel decides to leave her and she evntually realises that he was just hiding in the back of the house.
But the most important part is when she stops caring about his actions (that's where her love stops) and then turns to her sons.
As for Mr Morel we get hints of his love in many places. First we learn that he is jealous of his first born child. Then we see that even when he is angry with her and they fight he has great pungs of guilt (although he never admits it).
Great observations Alexei.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexei
There is a certain point where Mrs Morel stops critisising her husband about his drunkeness, because she just doesn't care anymore. This is the point, chronologically, where we can safely say that her love is dead.
Also, to comment on your first point, Mrs Morel is more like disappointed and hurt, she doesn't actually try to fight back. YEs, that seems to be true. The answer can be found again in her upbringing. Mrs Morel comes from a puritan family. She is a devout christian and she has learned to restrain her feelings.Quite the opposite from Gudrun from "Women in love" who was a tigress ;)