Classical Listening

The Last of the Musical Bachs

In the German music journal ‘Neue Zeitschrif fur Musik’ dated 4th May 1843 the composer and music editor Robert Schumann describes a visit to Leipzig for the unveiling of a statute to JS Bach. (It had recently been donated to the city by Felix Mendelssohn). But what surprised everyone assembled there was the appearance of a remarkable looking old man. Of whom Schumann wrote later -

‘Honour was paid not only to Bach but also to the appearance of his only surviving grandson, a man named Wilhelm Friedrich Ernst Bach, a man of around 84 years old, still full of ener
gy, who was also present with his snow-white hair and expressive features. (No-one even knew of his existence at that time, not even Felix Mendelssohn, who had lived in Berlin for so long he supposed he had covered every trace of Bach that could possibly be discovered). And yet, remarkably, this man, his grandson, had been living there for almost 40 years. No information was received about his circumstances except he once filled the office of Kapellmeister to King Willelm Friedrich 3rd and now lives on a pension’

(W.F.E. Bach died aged 86 and, with him ended the direct male lineage to his grandfather).

W.F.E. Bach (1759-1845)
Overture and Recitative
From Cantata ‘Westphalens Freude’
Rheinische Kontorei
Das Kleine Konzert
Hermann Max, Conductor

http://www.mediafire.com/?18bga096xng45ta

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Originally Posted by TacoButt

Wow, that was something incredible! Have you ever listened to the digital concerts online?

Love those rotary valve trumpets. We do not see those very often in USA.

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The problem is that when you go to the website given, you get a list of forthcoming BPO concerts. Although there seems to be some facility for downloading the concert, the procedure isn't clear. As someone has pointed out, the stupendous sound quality may be as much due to the sound engineer as the orchestra, but it surely has to be one of the most stunning performances of any piece of music ever recorded. As for the rotary valve trumpets, they may have been specified in the original score: Richard Strauss being possibly the greatest orchestrator in musical history.

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Hi mal4mac,

I once saw Trevor Pinnock and the English Baroque rehearsing this work at Westminster Abbey. Long time ago. Unforgettable experience. The place was overflowing in minutes with tourists and others on lunch to listen.

BWV 1063/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WrKy...eature=related

'Bach is another planet' (A. Daudet)

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Is there anyone better than Pinnock on the harpsichord?

I have Perahia's set of keyboard concertos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJSU1knqPSY

I don't usually like to collect copies of the same works, but might make an exception for Pinnock's set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLrNhMGPQtk

Vive la difference!

Bach has no known descendants living today. His great-granddaughter, Frau Carolina Augusta Wilhelmine Ritter, who died 13 May 1871, was his last known descendant. [1] (The article from which this was taken was written in 1930. It is currently believed that there are 15 living direct descendants of J.S. Bach bearing the name Von Colson. Source: Boyd, Malcolm & John Butt (Editors) (1999). J.S. Bach. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 29. ISBN-10: 0198662084. ISBN-13: 978-0198662082.)

I just bought a few of Bach's concertos for three harpsichords, and one for four harpsichords, both with Pinnock. I'm really liking them.

I've also noticed that in a lot of classical period music, there's no brass instruments. When were they first incorporated into an orchestra?

Hi Mutatis Mutandi,

Yes, the Pinnock set of Bach concertos is certainly one of the best ever made.

French Horns (without valves) were introduced into Bohemia and Germany in the early 1730's (from France) with patrons who were keen hunters and there were virtuoso players there within a few decades for whom orchestral parts started to be written. The trumpet is of course a very ancient instrument and there were guilds of trumpeters for centuries across Europe in many towns. The earliest concertos for that instrument are late 17th century. The trombone became especially popular in the late 18th century although it was known in ancient Rome. Beethoven is credited with writing sets of multiple trombone 'equali' in the early 19th century that are interesting to hear.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

I just bought a few of Bach's concertos for three harpsichords, and one for four harpsichords, both with Pinnock. I'm really liking them.

I've also noticed that in a lot of classical period music, there's no brass instruments. When were they first incorporated into an orchestra?

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Further to the above reference to little known composer Wilhelm Friedrich Ernst Bach (1759-1845) here's the end of his celebration cantata, 'Westphalia Freude'

WFE Bach
Terzetto/Choral Finale
Cantata
'Westphalia Freude'

http://www.mediafire.com/?hbshshxzrbhd532

Hi mal4mac

Yes, that concerto (BWV 1056) is quite wonderful -

So is this -

BWV 1060/3
Trevor Pinnock
English Concert

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzVGr...eature=related

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

Is there anyone better than Pinnock on the harpsichord?

I have Perahia's set of keyboard concertos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJSU1knqPSY

I don't usually like to collect copies of the same works, but might make an exception for Pinnock's set:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLrNhMGPQtk

Vive la difference!

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Amusing to find that a handful of Richard Strauss immediately brought the 'classicists' clucking from their coop. Whilst, admittedly, Bach, Mozart et al, promise heaven, Strauss actually takes the listener there.

http://youtu.be/TdhoDoIycBI

I've only recently began getting into the classical era composers.

Whilst, admittedly, Bach, Mozart et al, promise heaven, Strauss actually takes the listener there.

And when he get's there he'll discover that God is Bach.:D:brow:



Seriously, Brian, I personally rate Richard Strauss as the greatest composer of the 20th century. His operas are unrivaled in the century... and matched or surpassed but by a few of the greatest works in the whole of opera. The Alpine Symphony is most assuredly brilliant... although my favorite composition by Strauss would probably be his Four Last Songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVWrjDEVrHo

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

[COLOR="DarkRed"]I personally rate Richard Strauss as the greatest composer of the 20th century...[/URL]

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I like the works you mention but I can think of several I like just about as much, e.g., certain Vaughan Williams pieces are at least as high in my estimation. Tallis Fantasia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c3XvNZ3ns4

But there's so much competition. Just yesterday I was blown away by John Adams' Harmonielehre on BBC radio 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fygog...eature=related

What I like about JS Bach is he showed godlike qualities (of having lived in this world long enough to reject its basic falseness, and was rejected throughout most of his life and for many more decades - for writing works that defy and will always defy any real comparison with those of anyone else). And 'they' knew it. But his music is now recognised as the end of the musical conversation and really its beginning. One learns, almost as a sort of afterthought, to speak in educated/cultured company of 'great' composers. As a sort of antidote. As one might speak of the fancied runners and riders in a bogus race - though they are 'also rans'. Because there's nothing more to say. It was made that way. Since Bach was not great. He was an ordinary man.

Make no mistake - Bach is the most stupendous musical gift ever given to mankind. His thoughts on God are a matter of record. He was not God but as musically close to Him as it may be humanly possible to be. And we may still hear this for ourselves. Perhaps that was a reason for his remarkable life.

Sanctus
B Minor Mass
New Philharmonia Orchestra
Otto Klemperer
BBC Chorus
Agnes Giebel, Soprano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdFIX...eature=related

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Whilst, admittedly, Bach, Mozart et al, promise heaven, Strauss actually takes the listener there.

And when he get's there he'll discover that God is Bach.:D:brow:



Seriously, Brian, I personally rate Richard Strauss as the greatest composer of the 20th century. His operas are unrivaled in the century... and matched or surpassed but by a few of the greatest works in the whole of opera. The Alpine Symphony is most assuredly brilliant... although my favorite composition by Strauss would probably be his Four Last Songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVWrjDEVrHo

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Since everyone is already discussing my favorite composer (Bach) I think I'd contribute more to the discussion if I posted something about a relatively obscure modernist composer, Ustvolskaya. Before I heard her works I didn't really cared much about modernist classical music, but this sonata in particular made me start listening to modernist music. It was a great revelation for me to discover that not only "harmonious" music deserves appreciation, and that music that "makes sense" internally is sufficient.

This is the sonata: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvELcETEtQg Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild;1033412 Seriously, Brian, I personally rate Richard Strauss as the greatest composer of the 20th century. His operas are unrivaled in the century... and matched or surpassed but by a few of the greatest works in the whole of opera. The Alpine Symphony is most assuredly brilliant... although my favorite composition by Strauss would probably be his [I

Four Last Songs[/I].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVWrjDEVrHo

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Strauss's last composition and undoubtedly one of his greatest. This is the version that I bought years ago. My favourite is 'Im Abendrot' which leaves nothing else to be said.

http://youtu.be/6YD_8E4ZVxY

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

I like the works you mention but I can think of several I like just about as much, e.g., certain Vaughan Williams pieces are at least as high in my estimation. Tallis Fantasia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c3XvNZ3ns4

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I posted this same recording a while back as representing the quintessential music of England.

I like the works you mention but I can think of several I like just about as much, e.g., certain Vaughan Williams pieces are at least as high in my estimation. Tallis Fantasia:

I think when it comes down to naming a single artist as one of the "greatest"... or "the greatest" of a given era, this is something that must be based upon breadth and depth of the oeuvre as a whole... not merely a few brilliant works. I would probably argue for The Rite of Spring as the Modernist work par excellence. I go with Strauss as the single greatest composer of the century because of his oeuvre as a whole. His early works contain some marvelous classical compositions in the vein of Beethoven and Brahms. These, in many ways, are the work of the dutiful son, avoiding Wagner as his father insisted he should.

Eventually, however, he transgresses his father's will and discovers the brilliance of Wagner. Wagner inspires the great tone poems in which Strauss truly finds his own voice. These are among the greatest examples of the entire genre of the tone poem... and exhibit some of the most brilliant orchestration of the century.

Strauss' orchestral work then abruptly ends. He continues to compose lieder... some of the finest of the century... carrying on in the narrative tradition of Hugo.

It is with opera, however, that Strauss achieves unrivaled work. His Elektra and Salome employ the lushness of late Wagner... but to these he brings a psycho-sexual intensity... a disturbing eroticism worthy of decadent Vienna. He essentially establishes German Expressionism in music. After WWI he breaks away from the extremes of these works and like many artists of the time, turns to a form of Neo-Classicism. His Rosenkavalier, in many ways builds upon the tradition of operas by Mozart... as well as Johann Strauss. And yet... like Mozart... there is a depth and melancholy behind the glittering wit and deftness of touch. In part this is owed to Strauss' unerring choice in librettists. Only Mozart with da Ponte, Wagner's own librettos (and few others) equal the texts by Oscar Wilde (Salome), Hugo von Hofmannsthal, Stefan Zweig, and the great conductor, Clemens Krauss. These three operas may be the most famous of Strauss operatic achievements, but he also had a number of further operas that were unquestionably major works: Ariadne auf Naxos, Die Frau ohne Schatten, Die ägyptische Helena, Arabella, Intermezzo, Die schweigsame Frau, Daphne and Strauss's final opera, Capriccio. There are any number who would argue for Die Frau ohne Schatten or even Capriccio as his greatest operatic achievement. Strauss' only real operatic competitor in the 20th century would have been Puccini, and he is far more innovative that Puccini, rivals him for sheer splendor and lush beauty... and far surpasses his in emotional intensity.

Strauss crowns the whole of his oeuvre with his orchestral "Four Last Songs" which is surely the greatest song cycle of the century.

Still, I agree, there are worthy competitors. Surely there is Stravinsky... although he rarely engages me as fully as Strauss... or many others. Prokofiev can't be ignored... nor Shostakovitch (although I find a lot of his symphonic works "lumpen" and ponderous in contrast to his song cycles, his preludes and fugues, his works for cello, and his two brilliant operas, The Nose and Lady MacBeth of Mtsensk. And of course there's also Bartok... and Debussy... can't forget Debussy who would probably be my choice for no. 2.

As for the English... well certainly I love Vaughan-Williams... (indeed, if I'm honest, I must admit to a far greater collection of British music than Russian!!!:yikes:) although I probably prefer Frederick Delius. But then there's also Bax, Elgar, Finzi, Roger Quilter, John Ireland, Ivor Gurney, Peter Warlock, Herbert Howells, William Alwynn, Walton, and Ernest Moeran... all pastorally beautiful at times... and then there's perhaps the greatest Brit of the century: Benjamen Britten.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I think when it comes down to naming a single artist as one of the "greatest"... or "the greatest" of a given era, this is something that must be based upon breadth and depth of the oeuvre as a whole... not merely a few brilliant works. I would probably argue for The Rite of Spring as the Modernist work par excellence. I go with Strauss as the single greatest composer of the century because of his oeuvre as a whole. His early works contain some marvelous classical compositions in the vein of Beethoven and Brahms. These, in many ways, are the work of the dutiful son, avoiding Wagner as his father insisted he should.

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In the case of Vaughan Williams, it's not just a few brilliant works. All his symphonies are highly rated. Having listened to these, and most of Strauss' tone poems, Vaughan Williams just edges it for me (today!) Don't you think Strauss' output is rather lacking when it comes to symphonies? Or do you count his tone poems as symphonies?

I agree Shostakovitch is a contender... great breadth, and long cycles (!)... I'd put in a word for his string quartets as well...

And Stravinsky... I listened to the Haitink "Decca Double" recently... great stuff... he's not just a one work wonder, though "Rite" is the highlight...

What about Rachmaninov?

Delius, Bax, et. al, tend to get a fairly bad press, still, in the UK. But I usually like what crops up on BBC Radio 3. I just bought Beecham's "English Music" box ... mostly Delius ... and Bax is in my sights... Benjamin Britten is a bit too atonal for me... so far...

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Strauss's last composition and undoubtedly one of his greatest. This is the version that I bought years ago. My favourite is 'Im Abendrot' which leaves nothing else to be said.

http://youtu.be/6YD_8E4ZVxY

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I very much enjoyed listening to this last night - the full thing, I'm going to do so later with a glass of wine (Chablis) in hand.