Atheists....

Got to go with you here. I still havn't ruled out reincarnation and karma as distinct methods or resources. The deity concept has basic conundrums built in. Can the rules of physics be applied to spiritual things. Rhetorical question maybe. Oh well, back to unreality. RJS

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

Got to go with you here. I still havn't ruled out reincarnation and karma as distinct methods or resources. The deity concept has basic conundrums built in. Can the rules of physics be applied to spiritual things. Rhetorical question maybe. Oh well, back to unreality. RJS

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Hi Quasi,

Yeah, I'm with you, I can't really rule anything out. I sometimes think the native americans may have been onto something with their animal spirit guides, dreams, natural signs, etc. I could swear I've noticed unusual animal behaviour preceeding certain major events in my life--perhaps its just an over-active imagination though.

If spiritual = paranormal, then no, the laws of physics do not apply, imo. By definiton paranormal consistis of events beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation (1).

(1)
paranormal. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved March 19, 2007, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paranormal

Can you guess which way I voted?

the one who suffere from materialism ...
and look for the reality of this life in wrong way
he sufferes from inside because he don't understand the actual realationship between his mind and his heart ..
everything in his life must be material even the love 2 be real ..




in my opinion , if he or they don't believe that there is god "ALLAH" for this life ...
why ?
most of them live in confusing life ...

O sancta simplicitas!

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Originally Posted by Corlen

Atheists don't believe in a god. Like myself I only believe in materials processions. Of which I can personally see, touch, and feel. Unlike a god as many Christians believe in I do not see him. I have tried to pray to see some type of signs that to prove he exists, but as of now I have failed to get a reply. Therefore I don't believe there is a god, or ever will be one.

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the actual feeling will tell you ..
the try does not carry any meaning of feeling ..
and the materials does not mean everythings ..

We wonder, thuraiya, how can you be so sure about Corlen's feelings about god? We understand that you are sure in your feelings and that you feel so, but how can one be sure that all people in the world have similar feelings?

ahhh! I do have a response to the eternity question, but I have to get off right now... :flare: well, I will answer be back soon!

Hi Thuraiya,

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Originally Posted by thuraiya

the actual feeling will tell you ..

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What feeling? Could you please describe precisely what you are talking about. Is it a warm feeling of goodness? Is it awe inspiring? Please be as verbose and descriptive as you are able. These little cryptic, half-sentences are not very helpful, but they are typical of discussions of this nature.

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Originally Posted by thuraiya

the try does not carry any meaning of feeling ..

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How do you know this? This seems a bit presumptive and arrogant on your part. Do you personally know Colren? Speaking for myself, my attempts at prayer have been loaded with sincerity. I suspect this is the case with Colren too. Folks would not be posting in this forum if their feelings were not powerful and sincere.

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Originally Posted by thuraiya

and the materials does not mean everythings ..

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Agreed. But, and this is a big but: this concept does not in any way prove or even imply an omnipoten, omnicient, eternal, multi-universal creator/judge. It just means that love is good. It means that baseball is fun and that happiness is to be cherished.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

So, you are saying that science should just throw up their hands and stop trying to understand what is going on in the universe? Just accept without question that one partiuclar religion is right?? I'm sorry, but to me that is the definition of closed minded.

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I in no way am trying to say that science should just accept that they can't know everything. I'm saying that instead of trying to prove we came from monkeys, and disprove everything else, maybe they should try proving religion and see if they can find enough facts. That would be less close-minded.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Note: I have presented this question before in several posts and it seems to be unanswerable, but what the heck, perhaps somone has a theory?

What was god doing before it created the universe 14 billion years ago? What was it doing for infinity (much more than a 'gagillion') years? I mean many of you seem to find is so impossible for humans to have evolved from other primates. But the notion that some supreme being has just been existing for infinity and suddenly decided to create a universe a little while ago to be a perfectly rational idea!

Again, what do you think God was doing for eternity before it (he) decided to create the universe?

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As someone has so kindly pointed out, I don't know physics very well. But still, I believe a key component of most of the equations have to do with time- seconds, minutes...months, years- am I correct? Because one thing everyone forgets is that day and night (by which we base all of our time measurements on) didn't exist until God created them on the first day of creation. Now, we can't say that God was out there for 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...etc. years, because years don't exist! However, most people would still call the period between when God created the world back to forever as "time", but we cannot measure it. There is a verse in the Bible that says that a thousand years are as one day to God. I don't believe this to mean an exact measurement, but meaning a long period of time. So the "time" that cannot be measured would be quick enough anyway.
One other thing is that we count certain periods of time as a long time. Being in school or work for a few hours is long, a 30 min. isnt. A year takes forever...etc. But I am sure God doesn't base long and short periods of time by our opinions. As He had lived, and lives, and will live, for eternity, I'm sure He doesn't get bored after half and hour.
Talliho! Good-bye! Hasta la Vista! Adios! C'ya! ...bye.

this would be a valid arguement if this were amongst a group of believers Bookworm, but you are not. There is much scientific proof of Christinity all you have to do is look :)

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Originally Posted by Bookworm4Him

I in no way am trying to say that science should just accept that they can't know everything. I'm saying that instead of trying to prove we came from monkeys, and disprove everything else, maybe they should try proving religion and see if they can find enough facts. That would be less close-minded.



As someone has so kindly pointed out, I don't know physics very well. But still, I believe a key component of most of the equations have to do with time- seconds, minutes...months, years- am I correct? Because one thing everyone forgets is that day and night (by which we base all of our time measurements on) didn't exist until God created them on the first day of creation. Now, we can't say that God was out there for 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000...etc. years, because years don't exist! However, most people would still call the period between when God created the world back to forever as "time", but we cannot measure it. There is a verse in the Bible that says that a thousand years are as one day to God. I don't believe this to mean an exact measurement, but meaning a long period of time. So the "time" that cannot be measured would be quick enough anyway.
One other thing is that we count certain periods of time as a long time. Being in school or work for a few hours is long, a 30 min. isnt. A year takes forever...etc. But I am sure God doesn't base long and short periods of time by our opinions. As He had lived, and lives, and will live, for eternity, I'm sure He doesn't get bored after half and hour.
Talliho! Good-bye! Hasta la Vista! Adios! C'ya! ...bye.

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Howdy Book,

Just an fyi:

Under the International System of Units, the second is currently defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.

Do you think a second is the same on say...Mars? I bet it is! If carried a caesium-133 atom to Mars, I bet it would vibrate 9.19 X 10e9 times/second just like on earth. Now, do you think a day and night are the same on Mars? Look it up if you have an open mind 8-)

Anyway, I can see when I'm beaten. You make a heck of an argument and I'd like to formally throw in the virtual towel. Be safe and happy my friend.

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Originally Posted by SFG75

LOL-I have investigated the claims of Christianity, and I have found them to be false. For one, Christianity is terribly unoriginal. Large parts of Christianity are products of Pagan stories of the past. From a "flesh and blood savior" to the resurrection, though they called him Osiris-Dionysus. On top of that, every major Christian holiday has a pagan predecessor. Second, Christianity claims nothing that makes it more discernablly correct than any other system of belief. Testimony?, absolutely worthless as there are plenty of Hindus, Buddhists, and Hindus who can tell you that their convictions are of equal value. The holy scriptures? The process of what is added or subtracted was nothing more than political scheming and the stories written were by the victorious tribes. Ethnic cleansing and all sorts of backwards behavior such as stoning children, clearly show this pattern IMHO.

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Testimonies are not worthless. There were witnesses to Christs miracles, death, and rising, many witnesses. The process of adding and subtracting was written by the losers. Israel has been in and out of foreign control forever. The area's practices were quite cruel (the stoning children), but ethnic cleansing obviously failed, as the Jews (obviously the losers. The name Jew was actually applied to the people by the Persians who were occupying them at the time) are still there.

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Originally Posted by SFG75

LOL-I have investigated the claims of Christianity, and I have found them to be false.

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Could you qualify the extent and method of your "investigation," please?

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Originally Posted by SFG75

For one, Christianity is terribly unoriginal. Large parts of Christianity are products of Pagan stories of the past. From a "flesh and blood savior" to the resurrection, though they called him Osiris-Dionysus. On top of that, every major Christian holiday has a pagan predecessor.

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Easily countered. C.S Lewis convincingly argued in a number of essays that Christ was the fulfillment of all the other "symbolic Christs" before Him; the other myths were prefigurations of the Christ to come. If you examine Plato's Republic and peruse Socrates' description of the "totally righteous man" you will see a decription that resembles Christ perfectly. Lewis suggested that if Plato had been alive at the time of the crucifixion that he would have said "yes - that is the exact thing of which I was speaking." Lewis contends (rightly so) that Christ was the "myth made real." Secondly, that the early Christian church may have had holidays that resembled pagan festivals doesn't invalidate Christianity - it simply confirms that it can, on occasion, resort to pragmatics to deal with cultural shifts (hence the Christian church's use of "harvest festivals" as alternatives to Halloween celebrations).

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Originally Posted by SFG75

Second, Christianity claims nothing that makes it more discernablly correct than any other system of belief.

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This too is false. The cosmological and design arguments show that God is necessary, powerful, transcendant, non-contingent, intelligent, and personal; the moral argument shows that God has a moral will, a purpose for how we are to live, that he is engaged with the world, and that the motives and actions of human beings matter to Him. No other belief system puts forth anything/body that meets the same criteria.

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Originally Posted by SFG75

Testimony?, absolutely worthless as there are plenty of Hindus, Buddhists, and Hindus who can tell you that their convictions are of equal value. The holy scriptures? The process of what is added or subtracted was nothing more than political scheming and the stories written were by the victorious tribes.

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Fine - let's here your evidence, because I've heard this cliche a hundred times. Nobody who knows the history of the early church would agree with this. People do not die the horrible deaths early Christians did because of some made up book of lies. Please. The internal coherence of the Bible and numerous textual integrity studies absolutely trash-can these misinformed assertions.

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Originally Posted by SFG75

Ethnic cleansing and all sorts of backwards behavior such as stoning children, clearly show this pattern IMHO.

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I'm sorry - your out-of-context quoting won't work either. I could cut and paste enough statements out of your postings or take a few sentences of yours out of context and make you sound like you're saying something really bad too. Don't apply your 21st century politically correct lense on the Bible without knowing clearly what's inside it, the context within which these things occured, the the God whom it reveals. Doing so is reckless.

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Originally Posted by SFG75

Look at our own politicas, for years, the "curse of Ham" theory was used to justify slavery and segregation. How laughable is it that a man seeing his drunken father is cursed, but the daughters who get their father drunk and sleep with him isn't?

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Why don't you dig up an argument from the 20th century? Current Christian theology believes no such thing. Digging through the past doesn't do much to condemn modern Christianity.

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Originally Posted by SFG75

:lol: Now you could argue that those instances are different, however, that would be to admit the *relative* nature of things, and we now how *relativism* is the boogie-man for every known(or pretended) problem that there is.

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There is no "relativism" required - both actions were sinful.

the why dont you use the 20th century arguement doesnt work. if the bible is how things should be then christians actions shouldnt change. what if you are wrong in some of your beliefs as well, and they change in the future? why is your intepretation right, anf the ones from the past wrong?