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Originally Posted by tn2743
I was surprised too to see the political brought up here too. I guess it is understandable on a poem about hope and the national fear that Napoleon brought.
At some point we should discuss the closing couplets to each stanza and why he does what he does with them. I've certainly not come to any understanding.
No, I'm not a professional musician, though it would be wonderful to be that talented. I'm just a lit. scholar who plays the piano on a pretty amateur level and have a deep interest in and appreciation of classical music. :)Quote:
Petrarch, are you a conductor or a musician? How cool!!! I was recently given some directions into listening and understanding classical music by a conductor friend (I'm almost blind and deaf musically) - it is just as hard as understanding poetry. But I find that music and poetry are similar in many ways.
Like you guys, I also feel like the political is out of place here. I feel as though he was trying to cover every situation that came to his mind as possibly troubling and depressing--politics often fits that bill. ;) I think it's a good idea to take a closer look at each stanza Virg., but I'm going to leave that until later, since I've got miles to read before I sleep. :as-sleep:Quote:
I was surprised too to see the political brought up here too. I guess it is understandable on a poem about hope and the national fear that Napoleon brought.
At some point we should discuss the closing couplets to each stanza and why he does what he does with them. I've certainly not come to any understanding.
I have only noticed that he uses the rhyme "shed" and "head" many times, though not in a clear pattern. But every time he uses this rhyme, it is to conclude the stanza with a feeling that he is passive and is waiting for protection or blessing from Hope or a greater power. Perhaps he is stressing that he is not doing enough himself to help the situation, that he is helpless: "O let me think it is not quite in vain/ To sigh out sonnets to the midnight air!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
There's another kind of hope; one you can help by participating in in the proccess of obtaining the result to be hoped for. He could be fighting in the war, or be in the court protecting lady Liberty. Maybe he is cursing his lack of action and his "morbid fancy" that he could probably escape himself?
Other than that, I can't see anything either. I don't understand the radomness in which this particular rhyme appears.
That's really cool too. The piano is my favourite instrument. I love listening to Arthur Rubinstein, though I can't articulate 'why' intellectually... just seems calmer and deeper. I'm a grade one piano, btw :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
Anyway, back to poetry...
I do not sense quite 'helplessness', instead 'acceptance', and then he adds 'hope'. In regard to progression, I am finding the early stanzas discuss 'personal love and hope' and the later, 'love and hope of country (duty)'. I am not suggesting he is making a comparison, because I cannot see where he provokes that (yet), but I will suggest its a progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by tn2743
Another point about those times, duty was pressganged.
Interestingly, and I do not mean to fester this thread with my meanderings, but many poems have evolved into modern songs.
An interesting thought I just had. The political does show the differences between Keats and the other Romantics. The other Romantics had a subversive element to their thoughts and politics. One could never imagine Shelley writing the following: "Let me not see our country's honour fade: / O let me see our land retain her soul" I can't recall any element in Keats' opus that was politically subversive.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
I think Shelley and Yeats would have been more precise. I put this down to Keats being either less skilled or less confident at the time. I am comparing a lot with the recent Yeats piece, after the comparisons other people made, which wandered around in discussion for other reasons, not these same. Honour can be at a high price, and just maybe in Keat's situation (war times), at the price of personal love, health and other things. So, if I take that notion further it gives again the progression from personal love to love of country/duty. The 'hope' is calling for 'silver pinions' to arrive, and victory - an end to suffering. I sense resignation (I called it acceptance before), but different to Yeats (he was 19, should be full of life), and wonder if its a tough and reluctant resignation as a young man might resent. Also, being 19, and not being a military man, he would use 'refrain' in politeness.
The history fascinates me as much as the actual message itself. When I combine the times, personal biography and circumstances, I see a picture underneath the words. And here, I wonder if he was being a politer Shelley.
badnet....
I didn't quite understan why you have made this replacement. I don't think that 'acceptance' or 'resignation' would accompany 'Hope' as well as 'helplessness' or perhaps a better word that I can't quite think of; since the word 'resignation' itself somewhat implies lack or absence of 'Hope'. Doesn't it? Besides, if you were on the same page as me, I was talking about the final couplets of the stanzas. Where did he add Hope, if this 'resignation' was suggested in the final couplets of each stanza? I am not denying that there might be a progression that I cannot see, but maybe not in the direction of resignation. Wouldn't that contradict with the title too much?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
Has anyone thought more about this question? I think Virgil asked a good question here. I also thought that Petrarch were right in saying that we should look at each stanza individually in order to find a progression, since there seem to be no obvious pattern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I think we've digested the fact there are eight stanzas, there is a lot here, and but you are right, each sentence could be given a lot of attention. 'Helpless' didn't quite do it for me. In stanza after stanza, he writes, 'When.., Should.., And as..'. Acceptance/resignation that life may/should/would be sad, ...there are despondent times, and then hope for silver pinions to arrive. I am suggesting resignation to the earthly things does not preclude unearthly things. I think the other word you mentioned, 'passive' is how I would describe his character, but not mood. Sometimes he goes '!'.Quote:
Originally Posted by tn2743
I see what you mean about how "when..., should..., And as..." can be a sign of acceptance. They do give a feeling of submission or simply of being 'fed up'. But that is why in the last couplet of each stanza, the hope that he asks for seems so passive and helpless; but as long as he is wishing for things, he can't have given up. I think you would agree that...Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
"Sweet Hope, ethereal balm upon me shed,
And wave thy silver pinions o'er my head"
...does not constitute a resignation.
He is wishing for something. Though even this wish is not as lively as can be. He could wish for the strength to get through whatever misfortune; he could wish for a chance to undo whatever mistake. But instead he asks to be protected or cheered up. He just wants to be blessed and offers nothing in return but verses.
Sorry Jackyyyy, could you explain a little more about how 'passive' is his "character" but not "mood"? How have you separated them from each other through the message given by the poem? I see an expression of self - it can be either the mood or the character; but how does it express both separately and differently?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
Are you saying that the mood is positive or negative? '!' represents determination or desperation, no? How does that defy the passive 'mood'? Unless it's a positive mood and he is determined, then that wouldn't fit your 'resgination' theory anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
Perhaps neither "resignation" nor "helplessness" quite covers his view of despair in the world. I think it's a matter of "recognition." In the first portion of each stanza he recognizes something that either is bad or has the potential to become bad in his life. Perhaps there are some ways in which he goes so far as acceptance of certain things that happen in life over which he has no control, but I don't think it ever goes so far as resignation, and, as Jackyyyy says, accepting earthly hardships does not preclude hope in some heavenly good (not that I think hope is relegated to the next world here--there seem to be plenty of points for hope on this earth).
The final lines of each stanza are more like a repeated prayer than anything else. They are requests that "Hope" will act to fight against and sheild him from despair. This externalization and personification of Hope does give the impression of the speaker being in a passive, plaintive position. At the same time, however, the struggle is actually an internal one. Hope is something within the poet. He is calling upon something within himself, appealing to the better instincts of his own personality.
No, the 'When/Should/And as' refers to subjunctive mood. I am suggesting 'acceptance/resignation' that life can be sad. I don't think submissive/fed up/helpless are the same as acceptance/resignation.Quote:
Originally Posted by tn2743
I agree, this is hope. The resignation(s) I am referring to are prior in those stanzas.Quote:
"Sweet Hope, ethereal balm upon me shed,
And wave thy silver pinions o'er my head"
...does not constitute a resignation.
Agreed, he is not revolting/fighting, instead wishing/hoping, which makes his character somewhat 'passive'. He states an example then calls on silver pinions and hope to arrive.Quote:
He is wishing for something. Though even this wish is not as lively as can be. He could wish for the strength to get through whatever misfortune; he could wish for a chance to undo whatever mistake. But instead he asks to be protected or cheered up. He just wants to be blessed and offers nothing in return but verses. Sorry Jackyyyy, could you explain a little more about how 'passive' is his "character" but not "mood"? How have you separated them from each other through the message given by the poem? I see an expression of self - it can be either the mood or the character; but how does it express both separately and differently?
Overall positive '!'. Resignation to the facts of life (cases he mentions) does not mean the end. The word 'helpless' does not work for me because I believe he could revolt, and therefore he is not helpless.Quote:
Are you saying that the mood is positive or negative? '!' represents determination or desperation, no? How does that defy the passive 'mood'? Unless it's a positive mood and he is determined, then that wouldn't fit your 'resgination' theory anymore.
Agreed, it is a recognition in that he recognizes it to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
Here again, he is not helpless. He can call on something to help. I use the word 'resignation' as acceptance, not termination. A repeated prayer, yes. I am not sure about calling upon something within himself. I need to read it with that view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
I'm afraid you're not making any sense and haven't explained yourself any clearer to me. So he resigns to the fact that life is sad, but he doesn't terminate the hope that it might not be? A slight contradiction don't you think? How else do you suggest we should percieve this statement? And you haven't explained the character v mood theory that you proposed either.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
I agree with you. I think that you have found the middle ground here, or have made the arguments clearer to me anyway. I like the idea of the repeated prayers; maybe it's not as complicated as I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love