Evolution vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by Loki

Like AP, I don't know of the existence of any god(s), Adelheid. If I knew of the existence of a god - seen some evidence, or perhaps the being personally - then don't you think I'd believe in him or her?

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Isn't the earth around you the flowers, animals, plants, planets, stars all evidence of an unseen God who rules in the universe?

Isn't God's warning that Jesus is coming back soon through the Tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, war and rumors of war evidence that God is keeping His Word? I don't know about you, Loki, but thats my opinion. :nod:

No. People can be stubborn. I can be too. :D But not everyone who believes that there is a God will choose to believe in Him. And that is for several reasons. Firstly, it may be that choosing to believe in a God will necessarily mean ceasation of several activities which are displeasing to God. Not everyone is eager to do that, therefore, they choose the easier option. Believing evolution. Don't you think that Evolution has holes in the theory? If you read both sides carefully, you will see it. The 'holes' in creation can be explained away. But the holes in the evolution theory cannot be.

I watched a documentary recently. There were several archeologists and scientists interviewed. from both the evolution and creation sides. And the amazing thing in that show was that even the evolutionists AGREED with the Creationists that were no link between apes and humans nowadays. The fossils were either humans or apes. Not in-betweens. How can you explain that away? That is what I mean by having no evidence. Besides, how do you know that the Lucy is not another fraud? Also, it could be an extinct human.

See, the holes in Creation... the strata of bones. Obviously according to the Bible, people only spread out AFTER the animals. so their bones would lie on top of the animals, which would have spread out long before the humans did. That is a totally explainable reason, and the hole is patched. But I can't find a way to patch the Evolution holes without compromising the Bible AND the evidence we find.

That is why any conclusion I make will be in favour of the view which involves a Creator God. :nod:

P.S. I hope I did not offend anyone in this post. :angel:

Well, evolution is the same with "cause and effect", assuming Big Bang Theory is right which they say it's the beginning of time, what causes it by the way? or is it WHO causes everything to exist? think about it guys

It's not that easy, kramraq. Say there was a creator who "set off" the Big Bang.
Where did the creator come from?

I kind of feel like Yoda, here, but there is something I'm sensing in our posts--FEAR. Everyone seems to be afraid to listen to the other person for a moment. The most positive theological statement I ever read was in "Peanuts". Snoopy is writing a theological book entitled "Has It Ever Occured To You That YOU Could Be Wrong?" That is what none of us seem to want to face, that we could be proven wrong. That is the crux of the matter. If we listen the other person might make sense to some degree that might shake the foundations of the walls we have built around ourselves, regardless of what we may believe or disbelieve. So we choose the path of least resistance, which is to totally ignore anything that doesn't perfectly match our already decided belief. I ask all of us, creationest and evolutionist alike, is this an impartial, scientific approach? Man is capable of thought in order to question and think things through. If we were not, then we would believe whatever simply because we could not think of a reason not to do so. But we are not hearing each other, we are dismissing each other. It's doesn't become "let's explore that line of reasoning", it becomes "toss that out". How are we to learn from each other if everyone already has a made-up mind, and not a open one?

A question for those who believe in a "creator":

To what extent do agree with the idea of Pangea;Tectonic plate movement; age of the planet as 4.6billion years etc?

Are earthquakes;tsunamis;volcanic eruptions geologic processes or are they caused by a god-figure to punish/warn the population?

An answer to your last question, Kilted exile: both.

It is a warning from God using geological processes (because that seems to be the only things that gets to man) to warn and punish mankind accordingly. It is also a message from the God of Love for unbelievers to repent and believe.

The disasters can be a punishment. Israel was punished by disasters, so was Egypt, when Pharaoh refused to allow the Hebrew slaves to go free.

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Originally Posted by kilted exile

A question for those who believe in a "creator":

To what extent do agree with the idea of Pangea;Tectonic plate movement; age of the planet as 4.6billion years etc?

Are earthquakes;tsunamis;volcanic eruptions geologic processes or are they caused by a god-figure to punish/warn the population?

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A fair enough question. Let's see if I can answer without dismissing it as "unbiblical" and "toss it out."

That Pangea the "supercontinent" once existed I have no doubt. In Genesis, God says "Let the waters gather together in one place and let the dry land appear." Sounds very familiar. Then came the cataclysam of the flood, the destruction of the anceint world. Teutonic Plate Movement occured as a result and is still in measurable process, that I do not question. My family was so poor, that if we were not the poorest in town, I feel for whoever was! Jigsaw puzzles were cheap and good entertaintment. I can see where the peices fit together, and the rock strata matches. As for the age of the PLANET as 4.6 billion years, consider this from Genesis. "In the begining, God created the heavens and the Earth." Note that period, it's very important. "And the Earth was without form, and void, and darkness moved upon the face of the deep". Note the second period, also important. "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Third period. "And God said, let there be light, and there was light." See, the Earth was made before the six day (six thousand year) period of creation ever began! How long did it hang there before God got around to finishing it? You'll notice that rock is not one of the things mentioned in the days of creation. Why? It had already been made! The unfinished Earth hung in space a formless mass, perhaps of volcanic upheavals, for are not all births a mess? for how long? We don't know from a Biblical account. So a Scientific account that says rocks are 4.6 billion years old is perfectly acceptable. Nice chatting with you. :nod:

Pendragon you are using the same line of reasoning that the church fathers used originally. If it fits into what you want to believe, then change it. You are attempting to take apart scientific theories so you may have LOGICAL evidence for what you are defending. Let us take a break from this for a moment.
The bible is a very poetic group of books. They are all different in their own right, and should never be looked at as a whole(that is just blind zeal). If you would like to be LOGICAL about the bible then you would have to take into account the writing in that first book, and attempt to see whether or not the author was being metaphorical or sincere, much like any other work. Genesis, to me seems as though it was written to be sincere, we must keep in mind that it is a creation myth, and they have always tended to be outlandish(Anglo-Saxons, Bushmen et cetera...). They have for the most part meant to be true by their letters, no sign of figurative. This is what has happened in the chapter of Genesis, but no one says this, it doesn't fit into the church "granchildrens" game plan!

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Originally Posted by Satirical

Pendragon you are using the same line of reasoning that the church fathers used originally. If it fits into what you want to believe, then change it. You are attempting to take apart scientific theories so you may have LOGICAL evidence for what you are defending. Let us take a break from this for a moment.
The bible is a very poetic group of books. They are all different in their own right, and should never be looked at as a whole(that is just blind zeal). If you would like to be LOGICAL about the bible then you would have to take into account the writing in that first book, and attempt to see whether or not the author was being metaphorical or sincere, much like any other work. Genesis, to me seems as though it was written to be sincere, we must keep in mind that it is a creation myth, and they have always tended to be outlandish(Anglo-Saxons, Bushmen et cetera...). They have for the most part meant to be true by their letters, no sign of figurative. This is what has happened in the chapter of Genesis, but no one says this, it doesn't fit into the church "granchildrens" game plan!

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And, boom--that lasted a long time, didn't it? I make no questions on what others believe and discuss them intead of tossing them out. Now this post calls creation a myth, questions the author of Genesis' sincerity, refers to outlandish beliefs, etc. Do I do that to you? Do I ever say anything at all about evolution in this way? I have questioned the science behind certain branches of evolution, but in a polite manner. I even accept a form of evolution, that of adaptation of species to the environment. You want all or none. I will not give up my faith for anyone. You put in 25 or more years into studying the Bible, breaking it down book by book. I have a bookshelf dedicated to this study, with reference books and various translations. I always question everything. That's why I believe in God and the Bible. Some of it is, as you say, metaphorical, there for us to learn from, not as true happenings. But consider this for a moment: most myths are rooted in truth somewhere...I have said far too much. God bless. :angel: :wave:

So if most myths are rooted in truth somewhere does that mean that L.Ron Hubbard is sometimes right? I was not meaning to offend you which I am sure I did by the cyber tone, and fallacious response, so hey....now harm no foul. By the way, I was truly responding to the concept and not to you so don't go making everything personal (do I do this to you blah). Most bible backers do question everything that you mentioned above, and do not think twice about saying they did not. As for your 25 years of study, some people spend their whole lives doing the same thing and come to different conclusions, what do you say about that? Go ahead and feed that ego, they just missed something that your great big brain caught, right?
(FYI) I am one of those that has spent the majority of my life studying the bible book by book as you so nicely put it. And believe me, you have said nothing that I have not heard before. Too bad it in itself is a myth. Proposition no.1

Oh and one more thing, I think that in you transferred your want for everything to be all or none to me, problem is that it is obvious that this is what you are looking for.

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Originally Posted by Satirical

So if most myths are rooted in truth somewhere does that mean that L.Ron Hubbard is sometimes right? I was not meaning to offend you which I am sure I did by the cyber tone, and fallacious response, so hey....now harm no foul. By the way, I was truly responding to the concept and not to you so don't go making everything personal (do I do this to you blah). Most bible backers do question everything that you mentioned above, and do not think twice about saying they did not. As for your 25 years of study, some people spend their whole lives doing the same thing and come to different conclusions, what do you say about that? Go ahead and feed that ego, they just missed something that your great big brain caught, right?
(FYI) I am one of those that has spent the majority of my life studying the bible book by book as you so nicely put it. And believe me, you have said nothing that I have not heard before. Too bad it in itself is a myth. Proposition no.1

Oh and one more thing, I think that in you transferred your want for everything to be all or none to me, problem is that it is obvious that this is what you are looking for.

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For the record, I apologize to you personally, and to anyone else that may have been offended by my post. I try to follow peace with all men (and women). No, I don't have all the answers, I'm no "big brain", I have no "ego" left to bruise. I make myself no more or no less than just human, prone to the same mistakes and fallices of the whole race. I don't call evolution a "myth" or science "of the devil". If I disagree with it, so be it. Everyone should be settled in their own mind. But please allow me the same. If I believe the Bible, so be it. It doesn't harm anyone who wishes to not believe in it. I do not want all or none. If not for science, my life would be unbearable, since the illness I have requires medicine that I must take daily. You might ask "Couldn't God heal you?" Yes. But it is a burden that I carry and if He would heal me right now that would not be my request of Him, for the needs of the many far outweigh the needs of the one. I extend a palm leaf in friendship. How will you respond? :)

Please don't make me edit posts to remove the comments in them that are pointedly directed personally at another member. And yes Satirical your post caused me to post this.

Yet the abstraction was not enough. I understand and apologize. Let us have the leaf.

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Originally Posted by Adelheid

An answer to your last question, Kilted exile: both.

It is a warning from God using geological processes (because that seems to be the only things that gets to man) to warn and punish mankind accordingly. It is also a message from the God of Love for unbelievers to repent and believe.

The disasters can be a punishment. Israel was punished by disasters, so was Egypt, when Pharaoh refused to allow the Hebrew slaves to go free.

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I smell a threat to believe, a tactic a lot of Christians use to get others to believe. Shame on you. "God will punish you." Those stories are myths and folklore, no one knows if the Medeterranian Sea was really morphed into a sea of blood or Moses' staff transformed into a snake. And if God was one of "Love" would he use threats and his power as a weapon against unbelievers? Job was a devout believer, and look what his God let Satan do to him! It looks like you, Alheid, follow Pat Robertson, using God to predict and provide vengeful explanations for natural occurances. God loves humanity, and I'm the Queen of Britain!

Heres the problem with ID, clearly and nicely stated in Time this week: ID halts the adventure to discover things. They throw their hands in the air and say "I dont know! God did it!" It provides nothing for science. We want to know the natural reasons and causes for our existence, how DNA works and how/why mutations and changes occur. ID will not provide any of that.
In Philosophy we covered the ID argument, and there are countless objections:

1) If God was self-caused, couldnt nature be self-caused also?
2) What caused God?
3) God could have done better (appendixes, pancreas, 2 kidneys, tonsils, we are full of things we really dont need that "God" could have omitted.)

Is God really moral? Oh I wrote a 3-page paper on all of the things His followers did throughout history, and a book on morality called The Science of Good & Evil by Michael Shermer provided most of the paper. Suggested reading if you want to know about how a lot atheists can be more moral than some Christians. Shermer used data from many Christian poll organizations on various topics like being a good samaritan, divorce rates, intolerance, cheating on exams, (these were all completed by self-proclaimed Chistians) and concluded that "Not only does religion not necessarily make on more moral, but it can also lead to greater amounts of racism, sexism, and an erosion of cherished values that are so important to a democratic society" (236).

The thing about this subject is that one part of you can believe in evolution but another have total faith that God is the cause of this and scientists have no idea what they are talking about. Or at least this is the case with me. My mind says its evolution that no other reason is plausible but, my faith and my heart object. I guess we only really find out when we die.