I'm behind again. :(
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I'm behind again. :(
Quote:
It is quite allright, I did not mean to move too far ahead.
Dark Muse and Antiquarian, Thanks for your understanding. I guess I am was feeling a little bogged down, and totally overwhelmed when I saw so many post suddenly. I just was trying to stay focused and organised and I find it too confusing and disjointed when we charge ahead with ideas, that extend deep into the story or to the ending. I think if we do that we will miss a lot of the symbolism and significant words. I know how hard it is to hold back, because I find this true of myself. I get an idea, and right away I want to post it. A good idea would be to write these down in your offline program and keep a shortcut to the desktop, then minimise it and can pull it and post it at the appropriate time. I try to do this now, all the time and it works out great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I think we are mostly caught up and I will post more of both your posts soon.
I just wanted to give a little time or a short break, so that hopefully Quark and Virgil can catch up. I guess Quark did not realise the official start of the story was this month; he probably thought it would start as we normally do on the first (May).
I think next time that I post the text segment, I will only underline key words and then all of you can go ahead and talk about each part underlined or whatever else comes to you referring to that section. Then afterwards, I can post some comments of my own or on what you have said. How does that sound? To me that sounds a bit easier and clearer.
Antiquarian, I have the remainder of your text offline and I am about to copy Dark Muse's as well. Then I will post them right after I post the next part of the text, so hang-in there because those posts will not be forgotten, I promise.
And Virgil, You are not behind because I put the reigns on these two speed demons!:lol: oh no that was another dumb pun - demons and witches! You were right, this should have been a Halloween story, although it is set in the spring. You commented on the first section of text I posted and then I just posted this second set which starts with the cottage door being opened. We were waiting for you and I am holding back comments on some part of Dark Muse and Antiquarian's post to post after the comments when they enter the parlour of Laura's house. So to catch up just start with my last really long one because I requoted their comments and I posted this second part of the text (post #1712 - halfway down the page).
I am also waiting a bit now for Quark,although he is really far behind I believe; he still could catch up, I suppose.
Oh, don't rush too fast off this musical interlude. Here's the exact passage:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
And then we get many musical metaphors thoughout the story. You point one out here:Quote:
Laura played Brahms; the delicate, winsome German lady played Chopin; Winifred played on her violin a Grieg sonata, to Laura's accompaniment. After having sung twice, Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticise, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly. He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.
The music is a charm casting medium. It seems from here on that Coutts is put under Wini's spell.Quote:
Her note had that intense reedy quality which always set the man on edge;...or, more often, of her tortured sense of discord.
I don't know. I can't make up my mind if Lawrence is supporting free will or determinism. Perhaps the point is to make it ambiguous, hold the reader under both possibilities. It is somewhat unclear in life and so could Lawrence be tring to capture that ambiguity? It is "The Witch A La Mode". What does he mean by "a la mode"?Quote:
"No,...I prefer to walk this stage."
It is Winifred, not Coutts, who makes the decision to separate from Miss Syfert at this stage. Winifred has begun to cast her spell around Coutts, as she knows she can.
Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.
Coutts feels terrible about leaving Miss Syfert alone on the tram, but yet does so. Has Winifred already taken possession of his free will?
I had to look up just what "a la mode" meant, and apperently it is french of "in style" or "in the fasion of"Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It is an interesting choice for the tilte of this story, and I am not entirely sure just what the meaning of it could be.
Perhaps the more liberal ides expressed in Coutts and Winnis behavor to each other. She could be seen as a very free modern sort of women, as she does not seem to have any intention of getting married, nor wish to.
Virgil, this is good, what you wrote, but I didn't get that far in the text. Should I post the next section, then? I copied out Antiquarian's and Dark Muse's posts to post right after. This time I will merely underline the key phrases and you all can interpret it. I have to go out tomorrow, so I had better do this now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Isn't 'al la mode' on the side? Antiquarian you must know this; your husband is French. My American dictionary says: 1. in fashion 2. served in a certain style. Is that the only definitions for it?
A la cart is on the side
Deleted this post and posted it on the next page...hope that is not too confusing. I think it better to start fresh.
From an online dictionary:
à la mode
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ah luh mohd, al-uh-; Fr. a la mawd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. in or according to the fashion.
2. Cookery. a. (of pie or other dessert) served with a portion of ice cream, often as a topping: apple pie à la mode.
b. (of beef) larded and braised or stewed with vegetables, herbs, etc., and served with a rich brown gravy.
Also, a la mode, alamode.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1640–50; < F]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
Wow, it just dawned on me Anti. You have a French husband who's a cook. Oh the meals at your house must be great!!!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
:lol: :lol: ;) Or we could call the story "(larded) fat, herby witch" or we could call it "Witch smothered in ice-cream" or "fashionable witch".....I think Lawrence picked the more apropo title, don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Antiquarian, yes, that is the exact book I own. It is a good book. Actually the commentary on "Witch a la Mode" begins at the bottom of page 29, this link takes us to 30. It is only a little portion and I posted that (quoting) from the book about 5 pages back now. In fact, I posted a whole segment of that box text in my introduction or shorty after. I think it got buried. I was planning to post more of that commentary later on.
Oh, sorry, I did just notice you pointed out you do have to scroll back to that.
Did everyone see the portion of text I did post last night late? I went up to the part where Coutts and Wini part from the German lady, I think. I guess my post already got buried; I'll go hunt for it. I did not comment on anything (leaving that to all of you) and I was going to add Antiquarian and Dark Muse's posts referring to that section today. I merely underlined key passages and words or sentences. Be back after I find it.
I reposted the text below and deleted my old post.
Yes, Virgil, isn't Antiquarian the luckiest, she and her hubby are chefs and eat yummy all the time. She has some great recipes...ummm.
Here is your earlier commentary which I answered (in bold), Antiquarian:
Quotes by Antiquarian
I think that is eventually the outcome, both being sacrificed, but I think when Coutts now questions himself about this idea, he is either referring to the his own state if her were married Connie, he would be sacrificed and then later it could refer to, if he consummated his desires fully with Winifred (druid priestess, witch). Etiher woman would have sacrificed the 'true' core of the person he is and smothered Coutts.Quote:
When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.
Coutts knows he's in danger of seeing Winifred, and he knows seeing Winifred is, in fact, danger.
"I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."
Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.
He feels bad about not continuing on to Connie's, but he realizes he's pleased at the prospect of seeing Winifred again.
Above the coloring of the afterglow the blade of the new moon hung sharp and kenn Something recoiled in him. "It is like a knife to be used at a sacrifice...I wonder for whom?"
Is Connie to be sacrified or Coutts? I think it's both of them. I think it's their relationship that's to be sacrificed.
Below are the comments by Dark Muse (these were posted earlier but apply to up to this next section of text, only.
Quotes by Dark Muse
That is quite interesting about the nut being a powerful symbol of paganism. Can you expound on that? DMQuote:
Sense you have brought up the scene at Laura's house I thought I would post some of the passages, particularly that of the statues, which I think is a most vivid description.
Mrs. Braithwhite chattered one, laughing all the time. She was a young widow, whose husband had been dead two years. Of medium height, sanguine in complexion and temper, there was a rich oily glisten in her skin and in her black hair, suggesting the flesh of a nut. She was dressed for the evening in a long gown of soft, mole-coloured satin.
Though she does not play a large role in the story, I loved this description of Mrs. Braithwhite. To me the way she was described conjured up the image of a witch. With the black hair, and the mole colored satin dress. I also love the use of the word sanguine here. I also found the nut reference to be interesting, nuts themselves often act as powerful symbols in paganism.
Quote:
She let Coutts into a small, very warm room that had a dark, foreign sheen, owing to the black of the curtains and hangings covered thick with glistening Indian embroidery, and to the sleekness of some Indian ware.
I loved this description and I found it really quite interesting. I think the dark, foreign feel to it, and the Indian reference give it a sort of exotic feeling. And I think early on someone mentioned a dream like quality to the encounter between Coutts and Winni, and I think this sort of setting up the idea of somewhere far away or a sort of escape can go along with that idea.
DM, I loved that passage too, and thought maybe it evoked the idea of travel/foreign exotic lands, as well; especially since we have so much mention of trains and trams and travel in this story; even Coutts having just come from Diepe; thank Antiquarian, for letting me know that was in France and in what proximity to the area that Coutts now finds himself.
I decided to repost that part of the story and delete my old post...so here goes....less confusing this way, I think...
Ok, here is the next part of the text underlining some key phrases and words:
Have fun with it today or tonight! I have ideas, but will hold up for now.Quote:
Presently there arrived a German lady with whom Coutts was slightly acquainted. At about half-past seven came Winifred Varley. Courts heard the courtly old gentleman welcoming her in the hall, heard her low voice in answer. When she entered, and saw him, he knew it was a shock to her, though she hid it as well as she could. He suffered too. After hesitating for a second in the doorway, she came forward, shook hands without speaking, only looking at him with rather frightened blue eyes. She was of medium height, sturdy in build. Her face was white and impassive, without the least trace of a smile. She was a blonde of twenty-eight, dressed in a [b]white gown [/Qb]just short enough not to touch the ground. Her throat was solid and strong, her arms heavy and white and beautiful, her blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion. When she had turned away from Coutts, she flushed vividly. He could see the pink in her arms and throat, and he flushed in answer.
"That blush would hurt her," he said to himself, wincing.
"I did not expect to see you," she said, with a reedy timbre of voice, as if her throat were half-closed. It made his nerves tingle.
"No--nor I you. At least . . ." He ended indefinitely.
"You have come down from Yorkshire?" she asked. Apparently she was cold and self-possessed. Yorkshire meant the Rectory where his fiancée lived; he felt the sting of sarcasm.
"No," he answered. "I am on my way there."
There was a moment's pause. Unable to resolve the situation
, she turned abruptly to her hostess.
"Shall we play, then?"
They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.
The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.
Laura played Brahms; the delicate, winsome German lady played Chopin; Winifred played on her violin a Grieg sonata, to Laura's accompaniment. After having sung twice, Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticise, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly. He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.
All the evening, little was said, save by Laura. Miss Syfurt exclaimed continually: "Oh, that is fine! You play gra-and, Miss Varley, don't you know. If I could play the violin--ah! the violin!"
It was not later than ten o'clock when Winifred and Miss Syfurt rose to go, the former to Croydon, the latter to Ewell.
"We can go by car together to West Croydon," said the German lady, gleefully, as if she were a child. She was a frail, excitable little woman of forty, naïve and innocent. She gazed with bright brown eyes of admiration on Coutts.
"Yes, I am glad," he answered.
He took up Winifred's violin, and the three proceeded downhill to the tram-terminus. There a car was on the point of departure. They hurried forward. Miss Syfurt mounted the step. Coutts waited for Winifred. The conductor called:
"Come along, please, if you're going."
"No," said Winifred. "I prefer to walk this stage."
"We can walk from West Croydon," said Coutts.
The conductor rang the bell.
"Aren't you coming?" cried the frail, excitable little lady, from the footboard. "Aren't you coming?--Oh!"
"I walk from West Croydon every day; I prefer to walk here, in the quiet," said Winifred.
"Aw! aren't you coming with me?" cried the little lady, quite frightened. She stepped back, in supplication, towards the footboard. The conductor impatiently buzzed the bell. The car started forward, Miss Syfurt staggered, was caught by the conductor.
"Aw!" she cried, holding her hand out to the two who stood on the road, and breaking almost into tears of disappointment. As the tram darted forward she clutched at her hat. In a moment she was out of sight.
Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.
Many trees were often held as sacred in Pagansim, and the wood of those trees were seen to have certain magical properties, and so often times nuts from various different trees would be used in making charms and talismans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine;563797[b
Nuts also can be symbolic of fertility, and in many different Pagan Celebrations and Ceremonies incoperating nuts into the feast is comon, nuts are used in varrious ways in a lot of tradidtional Pagan receipies.
Varrious nuts were also beleived to have certain healing properties
Yes, travel does feature a promiment role within this story. Could the idea of travel be symbolic in this story somehow? Beyond just acutaly physcial travel from one place or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Dark Muse, Thanks, that was interesting; it might directly relate to the ideas in the story of potions and witches. It might just be the way he saw her skin. Decriptions like this were not that uncommon of Lawrence; als it links Laura to nature. I like all of these thoughts and find them of inportance. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, since Antiquarian was questioning the significance of trams and trains and Coutts comes on a train to begin with I thought of travel when I read the passage about the old man's room. Why else would it be described like that? I think the idea of travel and being free go hand in hand in Lawrence's eyes so it may have been so in this story; Coutts was coming back from France and I read that Lawrence had made quite a number of journeys there, at this time. He really wanted to get away from England and it's restrains. So Connie could not only represent a marital retraint, but also a total life-style/socialogical restraint for Coutts (Lawrence). He would have been rooted now in England for good, had he married Connie.Quote:
Yes, travel does feature a promiment role within this story. Could the idea of travel be symbolic in this story somehow? Beyond just acutaly physcial travel from one place or another.
Antiquarian, Tell your brother that is my problem, too! My son seems to think running will remedy that or cycling, of course the second can be dangerous if you are my son...*sigh...sigh*Quote:
My oldest brother is complaining of gaining weight! LOL
I'll be back to read your commentary later, Janine. We are barbecuing. LOL
Have a great barbecue! Serve your brother a piece of chicken tonight or burger with no roll. :lol:
I am going out to dinner with my mom very shortly. See you all later on.
Yes, I totally agree with that observation and idea. I could see that as I was underlining the text. Also, the Venus idea directly relates to the heavenly elements and the Godess of Love or the 'feminine', in astology. Isn't the morning star ruled by Venus? I am not sure but I will look that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Exactly; 'the witch a la mode' is doing her magic on him. I like this idea so much. Yes, he is even saddened by the fact that they don't go on with the kind older lady. He feels they hurt her.Quote:
Coutts actually wants to take the tram with Miss Syfert to West Croydon and then walk from there. It's Winifred who wants to walk the entire way, and of course, we know Coutts gives in to her wishes. She's already cast her spell on him.
Antiquarian, Shall I post the rest of your commentary about the interior of the room and also Dark Muse's commentary, when we enter the parlour and see the concert, just up until the two are left alone walking alone? I can do that, when I come back from eating out or you can repost those comments from your earlier posts?
I can respost my coments regaurding the statues as I think we have already addressed my previous coments.
Looking over the posts, it seems like we've already covered this part. The German woman represents the wife, while Winifred is the temptress. The scene at the car is reminiscent of Coutt's decision not to meet up with his wife. We've been over what the statue and the music symbolize. I don't have much else to add. I am caught up now, so I'm ready to move on whenever anyone is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I'm sorry for calling him a cook. Chef, of course. Have you watched the Food Network on TV? I've watched over the years and the other day I noticed while I'm at the gym (they have TVs with the treadmills and other machines and I usually put on the Food Channel) that several of the chefs have gained weight over the years. I guess they must eat way too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Ok, Dark Muse, that would be great if you could just re-post the parts about the statues. Thanks so much; I just got back from dinner and I ate too much, Virgil, Antiquarian...haha..and now I feel really sleepy...and fat!;) :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quark, if I see anything I want to further comment on in the text above I will do so and then post more of the text - ok?
I wonder what the function of this old man is in the story. It's rather odd. The character serves no structural purpose, so it must be thematic. I want to think that the old man serves as a double to Coutts, a character that reflects something of another character. But I can't see what this arthritic old man reflects in Coutts. His only purpose seems to be that he mentions free will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think the traveling about suggests a certain freedom for Coutts. The star early in the story serves as a guide post. He seems headed for his future. Is he choosing his path? Sometimes he does, sometimes it seems fated for him (the not being able to get on the train). Is it destiny or free will? Again it seems both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes that was my first thought too, but it doesn't seem to fit well. My other thought was that this may be Coutts if he remains under Wini's spell. Laura seems to have the old man under a spell. I think that fits better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Oh you're right. I went back and ooked and she calls him "pater." But he does seem to be under her spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Antiquarian, I think I read that Lawrence did read that book; I will check references and see if that is true. That is interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I just read all your posts or most of them; what happened when I was writing my long response to the text? So many more posts again. I don't know if I can answer them all. Anyway, you asked for my comments on the post text up until the train, so here it is.
This part stood out to me making it clear they both suffered at this initial meeting. Winifred look at him with frightened blue eyes.Quote:
He suffered too. After hesitating for a second in the doorway, she came forward, shook hands without speaking, only looking at him with rather frightened blue eyes.
I wasn’t sure what to make of that expression; was it due to the shock of seeing Coutts or was this her normal demeanor? She sounds like she might be somewhat on the ‘cool’ side, passive and reserved.Quote:
She was of medium height, sturdy in build. Her face was white and impassive, without the least trace of a smile.
As the paragraph goes on we get a good mental picuture of her - blonde, 28, lovely white gown, beautiful arms though heavy and white, solid and strong throat…..most notably to me was this last phrase “with blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.”Quote:
She was a blonde of twenty-eight, dressed in a white gown just short enough not to touch the ground. Her throat was solid and strong, her arms heavy and white and beautiful, her blue eyes heavy with unacknowledged passion.
Did this ‘blush’ also hurt him, at the same tim,e since he is’ wincing’; or does he feel guilt in that wince, for coming here tonight and seeing her again?Quote:
When she had turned away from Coutts, she flushed vividly. He could see the pink in her arms and throat, and he flushed in answer.
"That blush would hurt her," he said to himself, wincing.
It seemed that this “reedy timbre of voice” makes his nerves tingle. I think later it mentions the voice when they are walking in the night and I believe it says they put his nerve on edge. Here is the later statement: “Her note had that intense reedy quality which set the man on edge;……..” When we get to that part it has more to the statement that may explain why this is so to Coutts.Quote:
"I did not expect to see you," she said, with a reedy timbre of voice, as if her throat were half-closed. It made his nerves tingle.
"No--nor I you. At least . . ." He ended indefinitely.
So Winifred assumed automatically that he is on his way from the Rectory in Yorkshire and had gone there first and then came her to visit after. Also, note the one clue now that indeed Coutts fiancée lives in a Rectory and therefore must be a very protected young woman. It seems in mentioning this there is a “sting of sarcasm” – it that due to her disapproval of his engagement to a girl of this distinction and moral background? It seems, too, that now clearcut communication takes place to resolve this uncomforatable situation, so Wini turns to ask if they should play now.Quote:
"You have come down from Yorkshire?" she asked. Apparently she was cold and self-possessed. Yorkshire meant the Rectory where his fiancée lived; he felt the sting of sarcasm.
"No," he answered. "I am on my way there."
There was a moment's pause. Unable to resolve the situation,
she turned abruptly to her hostess.
Someone already pointed out the new, lustrous fascination he is feeling about the chimney-piece. All else up until now seemed totally unchanged to him but now it seems to be even more alluring and wondrous. I don’t know if the dull yellow of the upholstered room has any significance. So, it seems the mirror is a new addition to the mantel. Here is it described as “very translucent and deep, like deep gray water”…it did make me think of a lake or ‘Lady of the Lake's image….or ‘The Lady of Shallot’ which is later mentioned in the story. It seems that the mirror is a symbol of 'mystery' here, because it is ‘dark and translucent and deep’. Then in contrast to this mysterious mirror are the statues, that reflect into the dark mirror as white moons. These seem to mimic the very walk in the darkness the two will shortly take, and although the moon is no longer seen, Winifred in her white dress, would take the place of the moon and it’s mysteries, and allure. Somewhere, also I would think in Coutts inner recesses of his brain, he would connect these images – call it subconsciously. He would connect Winifred to the white alabaster statues, the nude figures glistening under the night lamps and in the mystery of the night – luminous, radiating like that evening star he first saw.Quote:
"Shall we play, then?"
They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.
Could the two statues also represent the changing nature of Winifred? She seems almost to have split purposes and is variable at times...she tosses Coutts about emotionally, like the trains he mentioned earlier, how they jolt one this way and that.
A lot of sensual and sexual tension. I think that Dark Muse said as much in or in a similar way. A lot of ‘suspense’ in this part of the evening. Also, like the statues Winifred herself is “reflected white on the deep mirror”, as later she will be against the dark night; there she will shine, too. Lawrence really has a thing about ‘loins’ and saw them as a very sexual/sensual part of a woman and of a man. Also, how blatant can one be in this paragraph saying she leaned like the Venus as “if anticipating someone’s coming” (her lover?); also him stiffening, although I feel that is more sexual tension than literal.Quote:
The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.
I did not quite understand about the “unable to criticize” phrase…does this mean he normally would have or that he found nothing to criticize?Quote:
..Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticize, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly.
She plays sensually and with a lot of sexual power and suspense. How could any man resist at this point? At least being fascinated with her and her power? He obviously notice her figure with the fact observed that she wore no corset; also those days that would indicate a more modern type woman and maybe less sexually restrained. The last statement now indicates that he is consciously connecting her with the Venus figure on the mantelpiece. Also, interesting to note, maybe that the chimney/fire is connected to Winifred as well, even this early in the story. Also the ending line of that paragraph about Winifred - "an isolated woman" - interesting and may go along with what Antiquarian just said about Winifred and marriage.Quote:
He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.
So after the German woman suggests this and this would be safer with 3 people and not Coutts being left all alone with Winifred he says he is glad. He seems to be sincere at this point about that statement. The woman seems to like Coutts and looks at him with admiration. She is however described as “forty, naïve and innocent.”Quote:
…."We can go by car together to West Croydon," said the German lady, gleefully, as if she were a child. She was a frail, excitable little woman of forty, naïve and innocent. She gazed with bright brown eyes of admiration on Coutts.
"Yes, I am glad," he answered.
So suddenly, Winifred changes her mind and balks at going along on the train as a threesome. Wasn’t this planned out back at the house and she seemed in agreement on the plan? I can see why Coutts would be very annoyed at Winifred and her stubbornness, and feel “wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.”Quote:
…… Coutts waited for Winifred. The conductor called:
"Come along, please, if you're going."
"No," said Winifred. "I prefer to walk this stage."
"We can walk from West Croydon," said Coutts.
The conductor rang the bell.
"Aren't you coming?" cried the frail, excitable little lady, from the footboard. "Aren't you coming?--Oh!"
"I walk from West Croydon every day; I prefer to walk here, in the quiet," said Winifred.
"Aw! aren't you coming with me?" cried the little lady, quite frightened. She stepped back, in supplication, towards the footboard. The conductor impatiently buzzed the bell. The car started forward, Miss Syfurt staggered, was caught by the conductor.
"Aw!" she cried, holding her hand out to the two who stood on the road, and breaking almost into tears of disappointment. As the tram darted forward she clutched at her hat. In a moment she was out of sight.
Coutts stood wounded to the quick by this pain given to the frail, child-like lady.
One thing confuses me here and this is the prominity to Winifred’s house to West Croyden and to this location where they are leaving the train. Wouldn’t Coutts accompany her from either locales? Why is it so key that this is the longer walk? Is it also more remote and isolated, giving her more time to lure him, cast the spell of desire upon him?
And Virgil, woman can be so bewitching....;) :lol:
Aren't most men...
babbling idiots in front of a beautiful alluring woman? :lol: just kidding really...showing my hidden hostility to men now...
The old man is her pater or father. So, Virgil, you went back and 'ooked'....:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I don't know if Laura has him under a spell, but I think the comparison between a potential Coutts and the old man does hold up. The old gentlemen is stiff with his politeness and gallantry, and Coutts considers himself similar to this when he's with Connie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
The characterization of Winifred is filled with opposites. She's strong, but a blush would hurt her. She's impassive, yet filled with unacknowledged passion. Coutts' reactions to her are equally contradictory, of course. He loves and hates her while he's being attracted and repulsed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The sound of her voice certainly provokes a reaction from him. He just doesn't know what kind of reaction it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yeah, I think Winifred is trying to wound Coutts by bringing up his his cloistered wife this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I agree with this, Quark. I do see how that relates and especially with the key clue - the word 'gallantry' because later in the story the idea of the Lady of Shallot is suggested and I think he appears as a sort of Lancelot, gallant and bold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
That is a good observation, Quark. Yes, Winifred is comprised of all kinds of opposites and she gives to Coutts many confusing/conflicting signals, don't you think? I feel she is conflicted, just as Coutts is in a different way; or is it that Coutts is seeing her this way in his eyes. At anyrate I don't see that anything between them is ever clearcut or direct. All is spoken in glance and looks and symbolic language. We will see that in the next section of text, when I post it.Quote:
The characterization of Winifred is filled with opposites. She's strong, but a blush would hurt her. She's impassive, yet filled with unacknowledged passion. Coutts' reactions to her are equally contradictory, of course. He loves and hates her while he's being attracted and repulsed.
It seems to grate on him, don't you think? It is curious. At one moment I thought her 'raspiness' a sort of turn-on and then I wondered at that.Quote:
The sound of her voice certainly provokes a reaction from him. He just doesn't know what kind of reaction it is.
Yes, that is a very good way of putting it. Coutts life would be 'cloistered' as well.Quote:
Yeah, I think Winifred is trying to wound Coutts by bringing up his his cloistered wife this way.
ANOUNCEMENT
I can't post the next section of text, until later tomorrow night or Saturday....Can everyone hold up and wait until then. Post any comments up until this part of the story, but try not to get into discussing the walk to Winifred's house. I am sorry I have to delay for a day. I have very important things to do tomorrow and will be out all day and into the evening. See you all when I get here!
I have not read over everyone's post yet. But here was my coments regaurding the statue.
This is one of my favorite passages in the story, and it is ripe with sensuality, as well as sexuality, I think it really does set up the events in the story that are to come.
I found the line:
Though he knows the setting and the people and has been here before, there is something different about this visit, perhaps, it is suggesting that after his separation from Winni, now that he has been united with her, he is becoming re-enchanted by her.Quote:
He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination.
This seems to be a pretty clear cut sexual reference. Much like the line at the beginning about being "roused"Quote:
Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen.
One of the things I found interesting in this passage was the reference of mirrors. I am not entirely sure what they are meant to symbolize here. Considering the various different ways mirrors are typically used. As a way of reflection upon oneself.
The presence of the mirrors seems almost in direct contrast with the passion invoked by the statues, as such feelings of desire and temptation occur without thought or refection upon ones action, but they are heat of the moment.
This was a great line.Quote:
She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins
Antiquarian, Oh, I think she does. The statue does represent her, and as I wrote earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Dark Muse quoteQuote:
... like the statues Winifred herself is “reflected white on the deep mirror”, as later she will be against the dark night; there she will shine, too. Lawrence really has a thing about ‘loins’ and saw them as a very sexual/sensual part of a woman and of a man. Also, how blatant can one be in this paragraph saying she leaned like the Venus as “if anticipating someone’s coming” (her lover?)...
Dark Muse, I think that is very true and when we get to the part when Coutts becomes angry with Winifred he brings up the idea of the image of a mirror, that she likes to hold up and see him in...something like that. He later says "I am a blessed Lady-of-Shalot looking-glass for you". A looking glass is a mirror, right? So I would take that to mean she does not see the real person, but the image of what she wants him to be - a mere reflection of himself, not his true being.Quote:
One of the things I found interesting in this passage was the reference of mirrors. I am not entirely sure what they are meant to symbolize here. Considering the various different ways mirrors are typically used. As a way of reflection upon oneself.
You said this before in reference to this line:
With this, I feel you are pushing the symbolism a little too far. I think Coutts is talking with Laura and she is trying to pry personal information from him about his engagement and also about why he and Winifred broke things off. He is not in a state of arousal; if anything it is aggitation. She is putting him into an uncomfortable position and the stiffening is a sign of being a little defensive and secretive. Why would he be aroused by Laura? He doesn't have any sexual interest in Laura.Quote:
"Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen."
DM's comment:
"This seems to be a pretty clear cut sexual reference. Much like the line at the beginning about being "roused"
First they discuss Winifred's "crystal ball" but than later I think he does say looking glassQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Acutally he was talking about the statue in that line, here is the whole passage:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
They adjourned into the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in a dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shinning white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet height. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching as she leaned forward the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.
Yes, I know that; but I was holding back from advancing to that part this early. That was when he was at Winifred's house; so that would be the final division in the story. Here is the entire quote, but taken out of context of what preceeds this remark and what follows, so we can examine that closer when we get to it. Here is the quote and Coutts is saying it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I can briefly comment on this that Lawrence was considered a young 'genius' and he really did not like people labeling him such; so Coutts based on Lawrence would be saying this in a way to Winifred and that this was not all his worth as a man. Remember at this junction, he was still struggling as an artist/author. When he says "my length of blood and bone" he is definitely referring to the physical side of himself and the deeper blood conscious relationship he can not establish here with Winifred and they both know it. The crystal-glass may refer in this case to the magic she feels he weaves about her or the allure and they both have plenty of allure for each other. I can't quite recall the story of the 'Lady-of-Shallot', but isn't that magical and to do with Lancelot? I am going now to look that up on Wikipedia. Believe it or not, I have the poem - it is by Sir Walter Scott I believe and it is long but I never did get around to reading it.Quote:
"Exactly," he said in a biting tone. "Exactly! That's what you want me for. I am to be your crystal, your 'genius'. My length of blood and bone you don't care a rap for. Ah, yes, you like me for a crystal-glass, to see things in: to hold up to the light. I'm a blessed Lady-of-Shalott looking-glass for you."
Oh sorry, I was thinking of a different part of the story. I mixed that up with the part when he was talking to Laura. I am not sure why or how I did that, but I did just go and check out the text and I don't see it in the conversation and now with the whole quote, I see what you are saying.Quote:
Acutally he was talking about the statue in that line, here is the whole passage:
I think this is also a tension along with the actual erotic feeling or reaction. I think by feeling aroused by the statue, the image off Winifred in the dark mirror, he is also feeling torn and disturbed with that ever-present feeling of guilt and the fact that the potential is there for him to do wrong.
I am editing this with additional information on "Lady of Shallot", which I found in Wikipedia. If you find that entry in Wiki you can also read more about the poem and the original legend. I correct myself, the poem is by Tennyson. Here is an important exerpt from the article:
The article reveals much more than this states - it is also about the woman's isolation.Quote:
"In a more general sense, it is fair to say that the pre-Raphaelite fascination with Arthuriana is traceable to Tennyson's work" (Zanzucchi). Tennyson's biographer Leonée Ormonde finds the Arthurian material is "introduced as a valid setting for the study of the artist and the dangers of personal isolation".
Some consider "The Lady of Shalott" to be representative of the dilemma that faces artists, writers, and musicians: to create work about and celebrating the world, or to enjoy the world by simply living in it. Others see the poem as concerned with issues of women's sexuality and their place in the Victorian world. The fact that the poem works through such complex and polyvalent symbolism indicates an important difference between Tennyson's work and his Arthurian source material. While Tennyson's sources tended to work through allegory, Tennyson himself did not.
Hi Everyone! It is me, your tired leader. I have to go out today and might not be back until late - depends. You might want to discuss up to this part, while I am gone today and when I come back I can also comment and post more text or post more text tomorrow.
NEXT PART OF TEXT:
Quote:
At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them. The two were thrust up into the night above the little flowering of the lamps in the valley. In front was the daze of light from London, rising midway to the zenith, just fainter than the stars. Across the valley, on the blackness of the opposite hill, little groups of lights like gnats seemed to be floating in the darkness. Orion was heeled over the West. Below, in a cleft in the night, the long, low garland of arc lamps strung down the Brighton Road, where now and then the golden tram-cars flew along the track, passing each other with a faint, angry sound.
"It is a year last Monday since we came over here," said Winifred, as they stopped to look about them.
"I remember--but I didn't know it was then," he said. There was a touch of hardness in his voice. "I don't remember our dates."
After a wait, she said in a very low, passionate tones:
"It is a beautiful night."
"The moon has set, and the evening star," he answered; "both were out as I came down."
She glanced swiftly at him to see if this speech was a bit of symbolism. He was looking across the valley with a set face. Very slightly, by an inch or two, she nestled towards him.
"Yes," she said, half-stubborn, half-pleading. "But the night is a very fine one, for all that."
"Yes," he replied, unwillingly.
Thus, after months of separation, they dove-tailed into the same love and hate.
If anyone wants to requote this and underline key words/phrases, go ahead. I will be in later to read all of your brilliant insights. Have fun, or take a break, too!
I haven't read through today's posts, but as to the statue, you know there are two statues. Wini and Connie??? Look at how they're described. I think there's a distinction between the two.
That's an understatement. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Actually that's an even bigger understatement. :lol:Quote:
Aren't most men...
babbling idiots in front of a beautiful alluring woman? :lol: just kidding really...showing my hidden hostility to men now...
Yes, I ooked. :pQuote:
The old man is her pater or father. So, Virgil, you went back and 'ooked'....:lol:
Janine commented on how that passage was sensual. Here it is again:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
The nude statue of Venus is clearly associated with the corsetless Winifred. Lawrence never mentions what the other statue is like. Is it an exact replica? He calls one "the Venus" which implies the other is not. But clearly there are two statues, like there are two women in his subconscious. But it's almost as if the other statue goes out of Coutt's consciousness. Just like Connie, perhaps?Quote:
They adjourned to the drawing-room. It was a large room upholstered in dull yellow. The chimney-piece took Coutts' attention. He knew it perfectly well, but this evening it had a new, lustrous fascination. Over the mellow marble of the mantel rose an immense mirror, very translucent and deep, like deep grey water. Before this mirror, shining white as moons on a soft grey sky, was a pair of statues in alabaster, two feet high. Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals. The Venus leaned slightly forward, as if anticipating someone's coming. Her attitude of suspense made the young man stiffen. He could see the clean suavity of her shoulders and waist reflected white on the deep mirror. She shone, catching, as she leaned forward, the glow of the lamp on her lustrous marble loins.
Laura played Brahms; the delicate, winsome German lady played Chopin; Winifred played on her violin a Grieg sonata, to Laura's accompaniment. After having sung twice, Coutts listened to the music. Unable to criticise, he listened till he was intoxicated. Winifred, as she played, swayed slightly. He watched the strong forward thrust of her neck, the powerful and angry striking of her arm. He could see the outline of her figure; she wore no corsets; and he found her of resolute independent build. Again he glanced at the Venus bending in suspense. Winifred was blonde with a solid whiteness, an isolated woman.
Yes, that is true, we are told that there are two nude figures but we are given no account of the second one, whatever it may be. It seems the second statue would be Connie.Quote:
Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.
As it says "they rose distinct from thier pedastals"
Perhaps this also means they are distinct from each other, being very different, the way Connie is quite distinct from Winni
Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"
In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.
Yes, good points. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I hadn't thought about that DM. Good point. I wonder what everyone thinks about the mirror. What's with the whole grey, mysterious thing on the wall? Janine put forward an idea that makes some sense, but I'm still not convinced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Mirror seems to be associated with the moon and the night and water. All symbols of the female.
Interesting ideas from all of you on this page. I will just add this but I am too tired now to post anymore. Some of this is from an earlier post concerning the mirror and the statues....sorry if I can repeating..
Could the two statues also represent the changing nature of Winifred? She seems almost to have split purposes and is variable most of the time when with Coutts....she tosses him about emotionally, like the trains he mentioned earlier, how they jolt one this way and that. Usually on a mantel one can have matching pairs of statues but it may be these are different. Does the text indicate that they are? Many times one is a woman and one a man in that case. The duality of Connie and Winifred is an interesting idea; but I think it also could inticate a certain duality within Winifred's very character.Quote:
Someone already pointed out the new, 'lustrous fascination' he is feeling about the chimney-piece. All else up until now, seemed totally unchanged to him, but now it seems to be even more alluring and wondrous. I don’t know if the dull yellow of the upholstered room has any significance. So, it seems the mirror is a new addition to the mantel. Here is it described as “very translucent and deep, like deep gray water”…it did make me think of a lake at night or the ‘Lady of the Lake's image….or ‘The Lady of Shallot’ legend and poem, which is later mentioned in the story. It seems that the mirror is a symbol of 'mystery' here, because it is ‘dark and translucent and deep’. Then in contrast, to this mysterious mirror, are the statues, that reflect into the dark mirror as white moons. These seem to mimic the very walk in the darkness the two will shortly take, and although the moon is no longer seen, Winifred in her white dress, would take the place of the moon and it’s mysteries, and allure. She will be against the darker mystery of the heavens or night skies, which also mimic the mantel, statues and mirror. Somewhere, also I would think in Coutts inner recesses of his brain, he would connect these images; call it subconsciously. He would connect Winifred to the white alabaster statues, the nude figures glistening under the night lamps and in the mystery of the night – luminous, radiating like that evening star and the new moon he first saw.
The discussion about the statues has given me a slightly different persepctive upon the story, than what has been discussed thus far though I do not know if anyone else would see it in this light, it had occured to me. But part of it involves one of the passages that come up later in the story, so I might just wait untill we get to that point.
Well, it they were full body statues most likely one would be a female (godess) and the other a male (god)..they would be a set of mythological deities. Usually you don't have a set of two female deities together and they seem to be a set. I used to deal in antiques and I know this is generally the rule. The description only concentrates or focus on the Venus, which would be appropriate considering she is the goddess of love. Perhaps the other was Mars - the male god in the love duo. Venus embodies the feminine (receptive) and Mars the masculine (dominent, aggressive).Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I tend to believe the two probably were this pair of statues. In "Jude the Obscure" I recall distinctively, that Sue purchased two statues, such as these -one male and one female. I wonder if Lawrence got the idea from reading Hardy's novel.
I see the duality within Winifred herself. She is variable like the moon....she is the new moon clearly visible and then she is illusive, just as the moon has gone from sight and now is illusive, invisible to the viewer.
Oh good, post that when it comes up later. I will be interested to hear your theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Antiquarian, wow, that is really interesting - thanks for looking that up and posting it. You are right, in astrology Apollo rules the Sun. Now that seems to have some relevance here, don't you think it? I just looked Apollo up in my dictionary and it says: "The Greek and Roman god of music, poetry, prophecey, and medicine". The first 3 would fit the story and characters. Often L was later seen to be prophetic in his writing, interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
When I said Mars, I was thinking in terms of astrology, again. Actually, in astrology/astronomy, the sun is not opposite the moon. The sun is in the center (most significant force) with the planets radiating/rotating outward in their orbits from the sun in this order - the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Neptune, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. The moon would not be opposite the sun in astronomy. The moon reflects the sun's rays and gets it's illumination from the sun. Therefore, this might relate to the whole mirror idea and the reflection of Winifred in that mirror and being seen illuminated as the moon would be from the sun; not the sun, but an illusion of the sun. The moon for Lawrence embodied the negative/cold of the feminine and the sun the healing/warmth of the feminine image. Not sure I expressed that completely right. In this sense, they could be seen as opposites to Lawrence's mind.
This probably will be my last post tonight; actually, I am not feeling too well tonight, so I was trying to take it easy. Glad I checked in though. Hope you are better, A.....and I hope I am better tomorrow.
Are they usually grouped together? I wasn't sure whether we were supposed to just know what the other one was, or whether the omission was somehow significant. Virgil already brought this up, but I think the desription of just the one statue is supposed to show how distracted Coutts is with Winifred that he just forgets about the statue that represents his wife. It makes sense since this part is placed right next to the part with violins which also represent seduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
In Hardy's Jude, the reason he picks one statue of Apollo and one for Venus is that Venus represents fleshy passion while Apollo typically represents an intellectual rationality. Lawrence could be playing with that too, not it's undeveloped in Lawrence's short story.