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<But "chance" I cannot believe for the variables that would have to be satisfied to make it take place would make the mathmatics of it happening astronomical.>
Would the mathematics be as astronomical as the chances of there being a god? If there is more chance of there being a god than there is of the Universe and all within being mere chance, then I imagine all physicists, biologists and mathematicians would believe in God.
Like AP, I don't know of the existence of any god(s), Adelheid. If I knew of the existence of a god - seen some evidence, or perhaps the being personally - then don't you think I'd believe in him or her?
There are plenty of books older than the Christian Bible that are still around today and many of them are religious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
Insisting that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God is simply not argumentative evidence. It's just your opinion.
Your question is fair enough, AP. If we are talking the chances of some bizzare "accident" causing a few cells in the primordial soup to eventually become a thinking person, then yes, the chances of there being a God are greater. But as I pointed out once before, everybody is talking and nobody is really listening. I try to meet evolutionists at some point of agreement, but they want everything or nothing. In or out. We should be trying to find middle ground instead of insulting one another. Yes, some are so rabid as to never change, no matter what. But others are searching for that middle ground and offering no offense to the other side. I have never called an athesist names, nor insulted them in any way. I always try to ground an argument on something other than just "that's the way it is." If we cannot agree, we can at least agree to disagree, shake hands, and go on in friendship.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
If you believe "A" that's fine. If you believe "B" that's fine.
If "Z" believes "A", don't call them stupid for doing so.
If "M" believes "B" don't call them stupid for doing so.
There have been a lot of personal insults and veiled personal derogatory comments directed at other posters in this topic and I'm tired of seeing it.
If you don't understand what a "flame" is you can ask me. :)
I really really don't want to, but, if I see anymore flamey type content in posts I will edit or delete them.
I guess this is directed at me in this instance, since I used the word 'stupid'. Sorry if I overstepped the mark. I'll edit myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Thank you for doing that blp :)
But actually there have been others too calling names you're not the first. But I doubt they will all apologise or edit their own posts. *sigh*
*not directed at anyone in particular*
People, they're words, text on a screen. If you feel you're getting too emotionally attached to your computer screen I suggest you turn your computer off, stand up, and go find the nearest human being and give them a big old hug.
*no I'm not a hippy :p
What is the purpose of a Creator? If "God" can be self-caused, cant Nature, too, be self-caused? Nature "selects" which organims will survive and which wont in any specific environment, and those that arent fit change or die.
Definition of "Fit:" Which organism has the most offspring, has nothing to do with any single trait, such as strength, intelligence, height, agility, etc.
No trait appears out of nowhere, it is either genetically dormant or active. You may be aware of someone carrying the gene for breast cancer, but she does not have breast cancer. The same goes for everything else. The trait originated in a certain genetic configuration and during conception of the sex cells, the body determines which trait it will use and which it will not.
About the Bible, one cannot completely trust the Bible. You must understand that there are passages and "laws" in that book which are so primitive compared to todays society.
Example: "Thou shalt not eat hoofed animals. They are detestable." Do you know why hoofed animals are detestable? Until the 1950s, they had no way of cleaning the carcasses of hoofed animals, and one must be very careful eating pork because they were diseased. But the authors of the Bible had little to no scientific or medical knowledge and displayed that ignorance in the form of "God."
Deuteronomy 21: 18-21: Essaentially, one may slaughter his children if they misbehave. Have you ever seen a devout Christian murder his children? Yes, sometime in history, pious people did. Ritualistic, religiously-driven child/spouse abuse was prevalent in the Middle-Ages, and it is today in isolated theocratic villages, such as Warren Jeffs' Christian community in Arizona. The beatings were almost always perpetrated by men to their wives and children. Sometimes the wife would beat the children.
Is "God" really "good"? Granted, if God does exist, why didn't he denounce even the most horrible atrocities committed in his name, such as the Holocaust, the Crusades, the anti-gay movement and Matthew Sheperd's religiously-motivated murder, or the bombing of abortion clinics? Why were there no more miracles after the Bible was written? Given His lack of response to these things done by people supposedly on His side, representing Him, there are two distinct possibilities for God: 1) God is Evil, or 2) God does not exist.
I do not, and would NEVER condone evil that is done in the name of God. Sadly, it exists and always has. But one cannot single out the Bible as an example of people abusing religous power, it was always done, even when they worshiped idols that were made by the most skillful artists among the people. The priests of the idols made the laws and woe betide whomsoever failed to obey. But if you use the hypocrite as a reason to dismiss the existence of God, it is a poor argument. For if that person really believed in God, he or she would not act like a hypocrite. Certainly, times have changed since the law of the Old Testament. The incidents you have pointed out are wrong, and I cannot condone those who do wrong, regardless of what they may preach. But letting a hypocrite get between you and God--think about it. They don't believe what they say they do and yet they are preventing you from believing as well!
It is the fact that their God has not shown them that they are wrong. Political Christians believe that Jesus will return if we revert to the laws of the Old Testament and totalitarian theocracy.
What is God's love really worth? As a living human being here and now, what is God's love worth to you? You cannot touch it, show physical affection in return, or sense anything from it and events provide continual evidence against that love, in the form of cancer, sudden death, violence, hatred, and ignorance. How do you explain God's love to a child whose mother has breast cancer?
Could someone tell me what all the fuss is about? Exactly what difference does it make? If it's creation, then there are enough concepts of the Creator that we can all find one (or many) compatible with our beliefs--or else create a new Creator to suit our fancy. That's what mankind has always done.
However, I am opposed to teaching creationism in public, tax-supported schools. There is no scientific evidence to back it up; whereas evolution has tons of evidence to support it. If people want to believe in creationism or any other kind of mysticism, they should do it on their on time --or on my tax dollars that go to religious schools: "faith-based" political organizations. But I could go on and on about that. Nowadays it is hard to define exactly what a "public school" is, as religion continually and inexorably encroaches on Government. It they accept tax dollars, they should stick to teaching pure science, excluding the Bible, Koran, Talmud, etc., as textbooks.
Meanwhile, Political Christians do not represent all of us. As for explaining God's love to the child whose mother has breast cancer, it would be a difficult task. But I have had to face explaining how someone who has been a minister since 1982 is now disabled due to bipolar illness which I inherited from my dad (who was not a Christian). I do not blame God because I have this illness, there are medicines here to help control it, and most of the time I do very well. When I start having episodes, we have to change medications or doses until we reach an even keel again. The reason for the disability is that no one can predict the episode cycles. For every illness there is a cure here somewhere, man just has to find it. I thank God that such dedicated men exist, who will try with everything within them to find the cures for illness that have none as of yet! Bad things do happen to good people, as in the book of Job. If anyone had a right to lose their faith, I did. People kicked me out of churches saying I was devil possessed since they could not understand the illness or why it struck me down. But I only became stonger for it. What does the love of God mean to me, as a mere human? More than you can imagine. I can love anyone, even those who do not understand me or love me in return. But I had to learn it by going through the fires I have been through. This is not a "pity me" post nor a "look at me" post. This is just saying that all who believe in God and the Bible are not the same. God bless. :angel:Quote:
Originally Posted by MiSaNtHrOpE
Do you love out of the goodness of your conscience or because God instructed you to do so?
That is a fair enough question. To be perfectly honest, a little of both. People who go through what I've been through these past 11 years usually do one of two things:Quote:
Originally Posted by MiSaNtHrOpE
1.) They become so hard-hearted that nothing moves them
2.) They become very tender hearted
I became so tender hearted that I seriously would not wish what I have faced on my worst enemy, nor do I think anyone could do anything to me bad enough for me to wish it on them. And yes, I believe God would have me love everyone. So it's a bit of both, really. I make friends easily before religion is ever discussed, and I try to not hurt feelings--I've been hurt so badly myself that I don't want anyone hurt by me. :)
Greetings, posters. I've just joined. Interesting topics, the lot of 'em!
My take on this subject? After investigating both sides - evolution & creation - I've come to find that many scientists do not even agree with each other on evolution.
There are also many people who feel that becuz there are soooooooo many books written on the subject of the theory of evolution that is MUST be true! Not so.
Whether a person is highly educated or not, both have plenty of info available to them to check it out for themselves so they can be properly informed. And since this is such an important subject to be sure about becuz our very lives are involved, it would do us ALL good to be informed so that we can make an informed choice. I applaud everyone's right to freedom of choice re:faith - Faith in evolution or faith in a Creator.
Now what about all those drawings of 'ape men' in school books, etc? Well, it seems the farther back they say something came from in history, the more 'monkey-like' the artists' conception becomes.
And since there are still monkeys, apes, gorillas & the like here on earth, mankind could not have evolved from them. Why? Becuz they are still here. They have not changed & neither have we humans.
Also, there could not ever have been a 'bridging of the gap' between man & ape becuz they cannot mate; they are of different 'kinds'. For ex: A lion & a tiger are of the cat family; they are of the same 'kind'. They can mate & you would get a "liger". (It's been done.) But you cannot mate a dog & a cat becuz they are of 2 different 'kinds'. But you CAN mate a wolf & a dog. Why? Becuz they are both of the dog family. But humans & apes are not of the same family or 'kind'.
I've found that believing in a Creator is just too simple for many 'highly educated' people to accept. Many also do not WANT to believe it becuz then they would be accountable to Someone & this, they do not want!
Has anyone else here found this to be true?