Atheists....

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

I am so tired of this particular tactic: do you notice that the storgest card often played against Christianity is from the 10-13th centuries? That there are Christians who have done stupid, hurtful things invalidates Christianity as a positive force in the world in the same way that a few bad cops, bad Catholic priests, bad teachers, bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad whatever invalidates all the good that police, priests, teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc have done in the world. That some loons claim "God told me to do it" doesn't mean that they actually heard from God (the odds are overwhelming that they didn't). All religions contain misguided people - all non-religious groups contain wackos. Quite judging all of Christianity by the "exceptions." Look around at some of the good things - humanitarian relief, social change (Christians instigated the abolitonist movement in the US in the 19th century). Come up with an original attack that doesn't simply prove that Christians are human too and prone to bad choices, character weaknesses and shortcomings just like everybody else.

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thats wasnt the arguement though. he said: "christians seem to do good deeds." and i was pointing out that people do good deeds regardless of demographics. and that chrisitians commit crimes as much as anyone else, and in fact, commit more large scale crimes than atheists.

as for your complaint about those centuries, thats when christians were in power. they cant do that **** anymore because they are checked by others. they can no longer raise an army by promising freedom to criminals who fight in wars. and world leaders are no longer so totally guided by the church.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

..all the good that police, priests, teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc have done in the world

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"Good" and "lawyers" don't usually go in the same phrase.:lol: :lol:
Nothing good done by lawyers :lol:

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

I am so tired of this particular tactic: do you notice that the storgest card often played against Christianity is from the 10-13th centuries? That there are Christians who have done stupid, hurtful things invalidates Christianity as a positive force in the world in the same way that a few bad cops, bad Catholic priests, bad teachers, bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad whatever invalidates all the good that police, priests, teachers, doctors, lawyers, etc have done in the world. That some loons claim "God told me to do it" doesn't mean that they actually heard from God (the odds are overwhelming that they didn't). All religions contain misguided people - all non-religious groups contain wackos. Quite judging all of Christianity by the "exceptions." Look around at some of the good things - humanitarian relief, social change (Christians instigated the abolitonist movement in the US in the 19th century). Come up with an original attack that doesn't simply prove that Christians are human too and prone to bad choices, character weaknesses and shortcomings just like everybody else.

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As much as i don't like to defend Christianity, you have a point there. People usually tend to confuse the wrong and crimes done by people who usued (and use) the name of God to drive the ignorant masses and achieve their purposes with the true essence of Christianity which is it's theory of course. My opinion is that Christianity is a real noble and benevolent "idea" (quotation marks means that it is more than an idea) and people who REALLY AND TRULLY AND FAITHFULLY exercise it are kind hearted and good. But of course i think most Christians are like every other person (potentially bad, meaning again that a lot of Christians like me are only Christians by name, know little about what their religion dictates simply because they don't care and have no faith. And saying a lot, i do not of course claim any particular statistic if there is any, but i am simply reffering to my circle of acquaintances which i consider a good sample.)

Then again all the bad things said here about Christianity are easilly applied to every religion, since every religion on earth has power on its subjects (that is the dangerous thing with religions in general) and if used by bad people (or simply people thirsty for power, money etc) the outcome can be really nusty (crussades). But if people are properly educated and have all the means needed to live happily (which unfortunatelly is not the case and never will be) there is no fear of that.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by manolia

As much as i don't like to defend Christianity, you have a point there. People usually tend to confuse the wrong and crimes done by people who usued (and use) the name of God to drive the ignorant masses and achieve their purposes with the true essence of Christianity which is it's theory of course. My opinion is that Christianity is a real noble and benevolent "idea" (quotation marks means that it is more than an idea) and people who REALLY AND TRULY AND FAITHFULLY exercise it are kind hearted and good. But of course i think most Christians are like every other person (potentially bad, meaning again that a lot of Christians like me are only Christians by name, know little about what their religion dictates simply because they don't care and have no faith. And saying a lot, i do not of course claim any particular statistic if there is any, but i am simply reffering to my circle of acquaintances which i consider a good sample.)

Then again all the bad things said here about Christianity are easilly applied to every religion, since every religion on earth has power on its subjects (that is the dangerous thing with religions in general) and if used by bad people (or simply people thirsty for power, money etc) the outcome can be really nusty (crussades). But if people are properly educated and have all the means needed to live happily (which unfortunatelly is not the case and never will be) there is no fear of that.

Cheers.

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My main point in the first place was that people who really are true Christians, and act like it, not just claim it, seem to do good deeds, according to men's idea of good. Though everyone has faults, including Christians, TRUE Christians aren't going to go around becoming mass murderers and the world's most wanted. I said that by men's standards, if a Christian died (one who lived it, not just claimed it) then by men's standards, they lived a pretty good life.
That was for the arguement which choice is wiser If I died and was right, I'd go to heaven, but if I was wrong, then I would have lived a good life. If you die, and were right, then great for you, but if your wrong, you'd go to hell. That was the whole point. I was in no way trying to assert that those who claim to be Christians are perfect, and the rest of the world are mass murderers. Bye-bye!

yeah, because of course if we remove everyone who commits a crime from the ranks of true christians, then we will only have people who dont commit crimes.
genius.

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Originally Posted by Bookworm4Him

That was for the arguement which choice is wiser If I died and was right, I'd go to heaven, but if I was wrong, then I would have lived a good life. If you die, and were right, then great for you, but if your wrong, you'd go to hell. That was the whole point. I was in no way trying to assert that those who claim to be Christians are perfect, and the rest of the world are mass murderers. Bye-bye!

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Suppose you're wrong and someone else is right--I hate to tell you, but you could still end up in another's hell. I mean suppose the nuts that flew the planes into the world trade center are right? Well then, they're going to heaven with the virgins and all that, but I've got a feeling your 'TRUE Christians' ain't gonna make it to their paradise.

Anything is possible, nothing is certain. Naturally, I could be wrong :)

yeah, you nubs forgot that their are loads of religions and afterlife punishments for non-believers. your chance is barely better than mine.

Suppose you're wrong and someone else is right--I hate to tell you, but you could still end up in another's hell. I mean suppose the nuts that flew the planes into the world trade center are right? Well then, they're going to heaven with the virgins and all that, but I've got a feeling your 'TRUE Christians' ain't gonna make it to their paradise.

If that is your point of view, think about this. If a religion truely advocates suicide bombers etc. then it has done the world no good. I choose to believe that Islam is not a cruel religion and the suicide bombers are merely like the "Christians" who say God told them to kill, i.e. they are schizophrenics, just crazy, brainwashed, or looking for validity. Why would the creator of a world give people to ability to choose other religions, and then instruct the followers of his (I believe Muslims call Allah a man) religion to kill them. Why not personally kill infidels like myself? Therefore, Islam is either incorrect or the suicide bombers won't be in any better place than myself.

yeah, because of course if we remove everyone who commits a crime from the ranks of true christians, then we will only have people who dont commit crimes.
genius.

Christians, again, don't (or rather on principal shouldn't) consider themselves superior (except in odds on positive afterlives) to others in morals, but they have the hope of redemption and forgiveness for their sins.

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

and that chrisitians commit crimes as much as anyone else, and in fact, commit more large scale crimes than atheists.

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That is simply speculation. There is no logical reason to assume that people who generally claim a belief in Christianty and its moral requirements would be more liable to commit crime than those who have no logical basis for moral behavior. An absurd conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

as for your complaint about those centuries, thats when christians were in power. they cant do that **** anymore because they are checked by others. they can no longer raise an army by promising freedom to criminals who fight in wars. and world leaders are no longer so totally guided by the church.

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These statements are equally absurd because they imply that Christianity has not changed in any significant way in 600+ years since the Crusades and that it is a rampaging horde barely being held "in check" by whoever (did you specify who's doing the heroic job of holding us back?). And, in terms of the terrible Crusades, I think it's pretty safe to say that radical Islam has returned the favor - don't you think? Shall we call it "even" - or should we suffer some more so that people like you will quit trying to "roast" Christianity for such inappropriate behavior?

"And, in terms of the terrible Crusades, I think it's pretty safe to say that radical Islam has returned the favor - don't you think?"

Given that the Crusades were attempts to restore to Christendom lands that had been conquered by Muslims, I don't see how Muslims could claim any moral high ground in respect of them at all. Not that, as far as I have noticed, Moslems do make any such claim.

The particularly evil aspect of the Crusades was that Christian west took the opportunity to ravage the Christian east - so maybe the Greek Orthodox christians have a valid complaint still to make against the rest.

But, as you, Red, pointed out or implied, it is ridiculous to use the behaviour of mediaeval armies as any kind of argument against current christianity.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

But, as you, Red, pointed out or implied, it is ridiculous to use the behaviour of mediaeval armies as any kind of argument against current christianity.

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All you said about the crusades is correct. The only point I was trying to make was the one you just acknowledged. Thanks :)

I really don't want to take part of the "Christianity ruined western civilization" thing again, so I'll bud out of this one.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

I really don't want to take part of the "Christianity ruined western civilization" thing again, so I'll bud out of this one.

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There is no solid basis for such a supposition. That is simply a tactic to smear Christianity in a way that is so blatantly unfair and unprovable as to be absurd in its very conception.

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Originally Posted by Matrim Cuathon

yeah, because of course if we remove everyone who commits a crime from the ranks of true christians, then we will only have people who dont commit crimes.
genius.

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When someone posts an opinion and you intend to comment on it please read it carefully and do not extract the meaning you like out of it.
The point i wanted to make was in the last few lines and it is to that effect:

If people on earth have education and do not live miserably as they do in certain parts of the earth, if countries stop invading other countries and stop meddling in their internal affairs, then religions won't be a weapon for leaders to use in order to achieve their goal. In fact i believe that there won't be any use of religions anymore. And even if there is (for many people have the need to believe in a benevolent force and can't simply cope with the idea that their pressence on earth is limited) we live in free countries so let them have it. I personally respect the choice of others to believe. And you know, it is nice since it seems that the act of believing gives strength to an individual.

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Originally Posted by Dante Wodehouse

Why would the creator of a world give people to ability to choose other religions, and then instruct the followers of his (I believe Muslims call Allah a man) religion to kill them. Why not personally kill infidels like myself?

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Howdy :) , now you're seeing my point--why would the creator of a world [universe] not just do it right in the first place? Go straight to the end game?

It knows what the final outcome of the universe will be, no? Who will make it to the show, and who won't, correct? So why not just make it so? Why make it so convoluted--"worship me and my glory for 75 years or so, then, if you accept that I sent my son to get nailed to a cross you'll live for infinity in some nebulous...something...If you don't, well, I'm gonna fry you for infinity. Oh, and by the way, for those 75 years...make sure you give 10% of everything you own to the church so they can enhance my glory even more."

Seems just a little contrived and convenient to me. But as always, I could be wrong.