Also, has the thought struck you, that perhaps you are simply projecting your own fear and dislike of atheism, your intolerance, onto atheists?
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Also, has the thought struck you, that perhaps you are simply projecting your own fear and dislike of atheism, your intolerance, onto atheists?
Dawkins hasn't killed anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
Definitely not Islam's fault, but I'd call the terrorists misguided and brainwashed rather than whacko. The atheist has no 'word of God' to misinterpret, no religious teachers to be misguided by.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
and neither has god. :) people have.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
I agree that it is not Islam's fault either. However, I don't think that is Dawkin's view. He would blame Islam. Here's a quote from him I referenced to earlier: http://ffrf.org/news/timely-topics/i...me-to-stand-upQuote:
Originally Posted by mona amon
"To blame Islam for what happened in New York is like blaming Christianity for the troubles in Northern Ireland!" Yes. Precisely. It is time to stop pussyfooting around. Time to get angry. And not only with Islam.
In the interests of fairness, Dawkins, and atheists who agree with him, should be held to the same standards they impose on other religious groups.
As far as atheists having no "word of God", they do have a literature and Dawkins has contributed to it. They do use metaphors, such as Dawkin's own "selfish gene" and they have myths such as the belief that chance can generate change.
I know atheists claim they are not a religion, but I seriously doubt that. I will admit that their religion does not contain any god metaphor, but one can then focus on the "universe" to examine their belief system. They certainly believe the universe exists.
I also know they claim to be scientific, but after 20th century science falsified materialistic determinism through quantum physics, they lost any scientific justification they might have had. This only confirms their status as a religion.
Excellent post, YesNo! I'm beginning to think that atheists, unknowingly, look at Dawkins as their God because they follow his book just as Christians follow the Bible or Muslims follow the Koran, etc. What's the difference when describing religion? Some atheists here seem to idolize Dawkins.
I would argue that there are very few genuine atheists in the world. Most of them are pagans. They tend to always worship something, whether it be sex, science, tv, music, animals, etc.
Complete nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
First off, how does one "follow" Dawkins' books? He does not give any life instructions, he does not prescribe morality and he most assuredly does not say what is right and wrong.
You are making the identical error to a person who would claim that Clive Cussler is the same as Shakespeare because they both write in English.
When Dawkins writes a bible and people start following the instructions in it will be the day you can make your comment.
And you obviously accept the error of your own words, because you've already retreated to "some atheists".Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
I would say that hardline Dawkins idolisers make up well under 1% of all atheists. There are definitely a very few people who see Dawkins as some kind of messianic character, but extrapolating anything about atheism or atheists because of that is making the identical error you're complaining he's made regarding islam.
A nonsensical generalisation supported solely by a personal view.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
^How is it a nonsensical generalization? I am not personally attacking you, by the way. I know nothing about you. But please, elaborate.
I would have thought it was patently obvious, but here it is again:
You say that atheists "always worship something" and give some examples of what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
You offer no evidence beyond your own opinion. Then, if you look at it carefully, it is obvious how nonsensical that statement is. Who "worships" television? Does liking TV programs mean one is worshipping it? How does one worship television? The concept is idiotic, yet you apply it to atheists, while clearly knowing absolutely nothing about what you've gone and typed.
You also suggest atheists worship animals. In what way? Which animals? Give an example of one atheist anywhere who worships animals. Do veterinarians worship animals?
Music, ditto - how does one worship music? Did Beethoven & Mozart worship music? (not that they were atheists as far as I'm aware)
Sex? Sex is the best thing in the universe, but I certainly don't worship it, and as far as I can tell, many atheists tend to do without it, because lots of them are geeks with no interpersonal skills. They might worship it if they ever got any, but I doubt it.
Even science. I don't know of a single atheist who worships science, and lots of atheists are distinctly anti-science. I'm sure a majority of atheists do accept science as a means of explaining the mysteries of life & the universe, but I'd like you to expand on how they worship a subject or concept.
When I say worship, I don't mean nominal atheists go about on their knees and bow before their televisions or pets. What I mean is that most so-called atheists, unbeknownst to them, look for an outlet to complete them. They go after sex, television shows, science, among other things, to fill a void in their lives they cannot explain. Instead of turning to religion, they turn to the material world. Most, not all.
I don't think this idea of "something to complete one" is useful. We are products of evolution, not jigsaw puzzles. There is nothing to complete! Ditto for "void in our lives", I can't see that as a useful concept. We are curious creatures who get bored easily, so all of us (atheists or Christians!) look for activities that are interesting. These include sex, television shows, science, and arts.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
Indeed. If you didn't, read Michel Serres on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
I am sure you can ask any atheist if they've ever felt "incomplete," and I bet almost all of them would say yes to at least one point in their lives. Who hasn't felt that way? Whether you call it incompleteness or a void, it's natural to feel this way and seek out things to fill it. People put their faith into all sorts of material things all the time. I see it everyday, even with those very close to me.
And it's not merely being interested in something that makes people deify material things--it's the obsessiveness of it. Take someone's tv or internet away from them and they'll flip out, or turn off their football game and they'll raise hell. People have all sorts of things that they'll lose their mind over if it's taken away from them. They look to something material to fill their lives. Without whatever that thing is, they feel threatened.
"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." ~Matthew 6:21
SentimentalSlop is correct that every person has a void deep within. It's the innate longing of the human heart for something outside itself, something transcendent. No one can disagree with that. Ecclesiastes 3:11 refers to God's placing of "eternity in man’s heart." Believers feel God made humanity for His eternal purpose, and only God can fulfill our desire for eternity. Without that fulfillment from God, man attempts to fill it with things other than God. “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9. Solomon said, “The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live…” (Ecclesiastes 9:3). Romans 8:7 says, “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so”.
Romans 1:18-22 describes man ignoring what can be known about God and instead worshipping anything and everything other than God...TV, electronic gadgets, sports, hedonism, etc. That part of humanity will never be fully satisfied. They'll find a measure of happiness for a time but Soloman, who had all the riches, success, and power in the world, claimed that it was all in vain and concluded that we should all respect God and keep his commandments "for this is the whole of man" (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
A latter-day scripture from http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/7?lang=eng I came across today:
Moroni 7:16,17
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
Ta ! (short for tarradiddle),
tailor STATELY
There is no evidence to suggest that atheists are more likely to suffer from depression than believers. What baffles me is why my rejection of a belief in god means the quality or meaning of my life is somehow incomplete or unsettling to you. I'm not impinging on your right to believe yet you need to diminish who I am simply because I happen to disagree with you.
If I tell you I don't like chocolate and you do why would you insist that I really do but I just can't accept it? I'm not disputing your belief.
It's not just you, every person has a void deep within. It's the innate longing of the human heart for something outside itself, something transcendent. No one can disagree with that. Without that fulfillment from God, man attempts to fill it with things other than God. Romans 1:18-22 describes man ignoring what can be known about God and instead worshipping anything and everything other than God...TV, electronic gadgets, sports, hedonism, etc. That part of them will never be fully satisfied. They'll find a measure of happiness for a time but, like Soloman, who had all the riches, success, and power in the world, claimed that it was all in vain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
That's your belief speaking. If you were born elsewhere you would reject Christianity and adopt the predominant religion you were born into and hold different beliefs. I might as well argue aussie rules is the real football making all other sports redundant.
Not everyone is like you. Accept diversity and take responsibility.
That's not always true. People convert to different religions everyday.
All part of diversity and more reason for tolerance of others.
It's one thing to tolerate others, but not all beliefs should be tolerated.
Lol oh I agree. Especially protesting religious zealots who spread hatred and show no compassion for those outside their circle. Love thy neighbor? What a joke.
There are hypocrites everywhere.
I guess many people leave it too fed up there is nothing to it then just a lot of hot air.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
How do you know this? Do you have omnipotent telepathic powers to see into the souls of everyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
Why not?! Many men seem to have an inate longing to hear the result of the next football match, and seem to have no longing for anything transcendent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
I've known lifelong supporters of football clubs, who died never saying that their support was in vain. I've had lifelong interest in reading and have never found this to be in vain (certain reading yes, the Bible springs to mind! Fortunately there's lots of other stuff to read and re-read.)Quote:
They'll find a measure of happiness for a time but, like Soloman, who had all the riches, success, and power in the world, claimed that it was all in vain.
I think you have to be careful about not showing toleration to protesting religious zealots. Do they really spread hatred? In me they engender a feeling of curiosity. How can people believe such things? I also argue against them if I get the chance. If they show "show no compassion for those outside their circle" then this fact should be pointed out, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't tolerate them. Everyone has a right to free speech and to demonstrate. I've been on anti-fascist demonstrations, and the like, and wouldn't like my right to do this curtailed. It's a useful feature of a free society, a very good way to stress the importance of your feelings to yourself and others, and a good way to blow of stream. In a similar manner I think people should be allowed to go on anti-abortion demonstrations, even though I am very pro "the right to choose", and am likely to go on a counter demonstration. But anti-abortionists shouldn't be allowed to kill abortion doctors or browbeat young women outside clinics - that kind of direct 'violence against the person' should not be tolerated.
No, just common sense. Admit it, you've felt an emptiness you wanted filled from time to time. Some fill it with material things, some with self pleasures...but the only thing that will satisfy that void is love and there's no greater love than God's love.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
That's a man for you :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
When Solomon said he found riches and power to be in vain, he was comparing it to eternal life. You've never seen a hearse carrying a u-haul. You were born with nothing and you'll leave with nothing. And all that power?...same thing. We'll all be equal when we step over that line (in terms of riches and power).Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
Maybe a slight hunger to do something different, but not a feeling of a "deep void" inside. I think you can satisfy that hunger with all kinds of projects, like reading novels, doing science, watching "breaking bad", golf, etc., etc. Trying to force myself to belive in a sky god, and attending church with a boring preacher, doesn't appeal to me as a project.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
True, so building up wealth is just silly, but reading novels isn't.Quote:
You were born with nothing and you'll leave with nothing. And all that power?...same thing. We'll all be equal when we step over that line.
All those things are good....but go deeper
We'll all be on a surface no matter where we go. That's complete and good enough.
Unless you factor in the lake of fire in Revelations:21:8 (Rev 19:20, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 10:6-15, Romans 2:5-16, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by cafolini
Sorry, I'm just the messenger...don't shoot the messenger
If you want to play numbers, you are going to lose by an order of magnitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
There is evidence everywhere of the enormous decline in religious faith in every part of the world where relative freedom of thought exists. A few, fundamentals are growing, but every other religious organisation is seeing a massive decline as the last remaining generation of fully religious people die out.
Your move.
Yeah, I get that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
I have a yawning, empty feeling in my ..... let's call it my stomach! That's it. I have a yawning, empty feeling in my stomach.
So I will eat something. What shall I eat? Those delicious-looking red berries seem to be plump and ripe and look exactly like tomatoes. And I love tomatoes!
Thankfully, my life's guardians - parents and teachers - have taught me along the way that those things are actually deadly poisonous berries called deadly nightshade, or belladonna. Allegedly sweet in taste, six will kill you.
The "spiritual" or seeker part of children's mind is filled with Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, as it used to be filled with witches & hobgoblins.
And god/s.
The yearn for answers is nothing new, and it's why we have the dual burdens of religion and philosophy.
Utterly right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
Which is it's really important not to waste huge swathes of the only life we'll have in pursuit of an unrealistic utopia or heaven.
If it's your only life, as you say, then I agree, don't waste it, party on, because it will soon be over and it will all be meaningless. But if it's earthly life plus eternal life then it's immeasurably worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
I'm not saying people are becoming more religious. All I'm simply saying is that people everyday convert from one religion to another. That's all. But yes, religion for the most part is something that is being tossed on the back-burner.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
But having become serious in my faith just this past year or so, I have never been more free. Being taught by Christ to keep my childlike wonder, I have learned so much. I cannot thank him enough. He is the love of my life.
I find meaning in things I do everyday, in the moment, why do you think that would "all be meaningless"? Think of a game of tennis, when it's over nothing has been produced, does that make it meaningless? No - the meaning is in the doing - same with life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melanie
Yes, but there is no evidence that eternal life actually exists. In any case, isn't "today" of immeasurable worth? Seize the day!Quote:
But if it's earthly life plus eternal life then it's immeasurably worthwhile.
I said, when it's over it will be meaningless without eternal life....key word is "over"
Not to mention without eternal life there is no real justice. It's all arbitrary without immortality. People get away with stuff all the time. What's stopping them if they know they can get away with something? What's stopping them if there is no absolute right and wrong?
People also get caught very often. If you are earning enough to live, why would anyone rational commit a crime? There is always the fear of getting caught, even if you don't actually get caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
Also, the crime rate has always been high amongst people who "say" they believe in God. If the threat of eternal damnation had ever been a real threat how come there has always been crime throughout the most Christian periods of history?
Habits of decency. The threat of jail time. Social disapprobation. Threat of loved ones disowning you. Squeamishness...Quote:
What's stopping them if there is no absolute right and wrong?
There are many reasons to do the right thing, and many reasons not to do the wrong thing. You don't need to bring threat of eternal damnation into it.