Plato is in Heaven, I bet. Can you imagine it - a fascist tea time for the soul?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
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Plato is in Heaven, I bet. Can you imagine it - a fascist tea time for the soul?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I once asked the same question, what about all the "souls" before christ. he said they were in something called "abraham's bossom" waiting for christ in after life so they could chose to accept him or not when he arrived. LMFAO! wtf? abrahams bossom? HA! Man they really thought this one through didn't they. Gotta love them christian "scholars" I mean. If you want to talk truth, especially academically you are pretty much gonna have to leave christianity out of it. It is essentially intellectual suicide to become a Christian. And that's a sin friends. And a non redeemable one too i suppose, suicide...
What's suicide around here, libernaut, is to say that it is intellectual suicide to become a Christian. God help us if we should say anything against the Christians.
to teach us a lesson
In case no-one knows this: I am an adult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bessie11
i think No. we are not allowed to kill other human beings in the name of God. but what if other try to impose war and you have to defend yourself and your country? than God says fight and kill. there are so many systems human invented. but all fails. no classes. no difference. every system fails. i concluded there should b a system which God made and want human to impose on earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebagman
Adam's error was just the reason to send us on earth. and in quran God says go on earth, and when adam ask apology God forgave him and said on earth there is some benifit for you as well. so if any one come to you and says the right things to do follow him. from adam to Muhammad Allah sent 124,ooo mesengers. code of conducts was different with every messenger. but the real objective was same. which is the biggest sin. that is to find and understand there is only One God. God of all universes and mankind, in chapter Luqman, God catogorizes the biggest sins. when Luqman teaches his son starting from verse no 13 you can see yourself
1. Alif*Lâm*Mîm.
2. These are Verses of the Wise Book (the Qur'ân).
3. A guide and a mercy for the Muhsinűn (good*doers)
4. Those who perform As*Salât (Iqamat*as- Salât) and give Zakât(alms) and they have faith in the Hereafter with certainty(argument).
5. Such are on guidance from their Lord, and such are the successful.
6. And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân) by way of mockery.
For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).
7. And when Our Verses are recited to such a one, he turns away in pride, as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in his ear. So announce to him a painful torment.
8. Verily, those who believe and do righteous good deeds, for them are Gardens of delight (Paradise).
9. To abide therein. It is a Promise of Allâh in truth. And He is the All*Mighty, the All*Wise.
10. He has created the heavens without any pillars, that you see
and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you.
And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds.
And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.
11. This is the creation of Allâh.
So show Me that which those (whom you worship), besides Him have created.
Nay,
the Zâliműn (those who do not believe in the Oneness of Allâh,polytheists etc) are in plain error.
12. And indeed We bestowed upon Luqmân Al*Hikmah (wisdom) saying:
"Give thanks to Allâh," and whoever gives thanks, he gives thanks for (the good of) his ownself.
And whoever is unthankful, then verily, Allâh is All*Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.
13. And (remember) when Luqmân said to his son when he was advising him:
"O my son! Join not in worship others with Allâh.
Verily! Joining others in worship with Allâh is a great Zűlm (wrong.sin) indeed.
14. And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents.
His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years
give thanks to Me and to your parents, unto Me is the final destination.
15. But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not, but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience.
Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do.
16. "O my son! If it be (anything) equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed, and though it be in a rock, or in the heavens or in the earth, Allâh will bring it forth.
Verily, Allâh is Subtle (in bringing out that grain), Well*Aware (of its place).
17. "O my son! Aqim*is*Salât (perform As*Salât),
- enjoin (people) for Al*Ma'rűf (all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al*Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allâh, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad),
- and bear with patience whatever befall you.
Verily! These are work of big courage.
18. - "And turn not your face away from men with pride,
- nor walk in insolence through the earth.
Verily, Allâh likes not each arrogant boaster.
19. - "And be moderate (or show no insolence) in your walking, and lower your voice.
Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the donkey."
20. See you not (O men) that Allâh has subjected for you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and has completed and perfected His Graces upon you, (both) apparent and hidden?
...................
As a sort of hint as to how one might approach a discussion like this, if the chap you're talking to doesn't believe in God, it's not terribly persuasive to quote God - and it's even less persuasive to cite what someone says God said.
Just trying to save you a lot of typing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by usman.khawar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
You need to keep reading. Paul's point is that the Jews having the Law of God in writing didn't place them in a special class. Both Jews and Gentiles (everyone not a Jew) need to be "good." But does that assume anyone achieves this goodness? Consider Paul in Romans chapter 3
9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and
bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their
eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
The purpose of God's Law, whether written in the Bible or found in the hearts of men, is never going to be a "How To Please God" guide or manual. It serves like a mirror. It doesn't matter how pretty I feel, when I look in the mirror I'm confronted by the truth--a zit. It doesn't matter how "good" I think I am, when I look in the Law (compare my actions and attitudes to what God expects) I see failure.
How is God pleased? How does anyone attain the goodness (righteousness) that God requires? It is given, not earned.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,a through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Note also how clearly Paul excludes the possibility that anyone is good enough on their own.
This is straying alot into What is sin? and What is good? and questions like that. I'm game for discussing these (as my time permits) but is this thread the best place?
A vain god pleases vain people, why wouldn't he?
I agree with you, but my point was that God will judge accordingly. He is able to judge the heart for those who never had a chance to know Christ....or the Law, whether due to location, circumstance, or era. No matter what He chooses to do, I am assured that He will judge righteously.Quote:
Originally Posted by togre
I am not so assured.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
That doesn't surprise me.Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
appreciated as you are trying to save time. yes i know the person who dont beleive in God i should not quote God. We see that this thread name is " why does a good God promote suffering" and also i answered for bagman.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
now i m returning your good argument to you , like gonna try to save you a lot of time as here in this thread(Why a good God) there is no athiest expected.
if any athiest like we can discuss in the thread " why i beleive in God" , well this thread name should be " why i beleive in God , why i dont beleive in God "
i also invite you to read this once and discuss with me, and give your good arguments to improve my knowledge http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=63002
What surprises me is that you are so assured.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
That is true, but so there were no need for the sacrifice of Jesus...Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
Very good point. If those who've never heard of God and his Son can be judged by their heart, then everyone can. So there was no need for Jesus to live, die and rise at all.
I hope Jesus doesn't hear about this. He'll be very miffed.
Where were you when God hung the stars in the sky (as God might have said to Job)?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
The notion that only through the Grace of Jesus' sacrifice can people be saved from their sins is (I'll fully grant) bizarre. Why should God create a world like that? But, then, why should God create a world where people die int he first place?
In all fairy tales (and many myths), there are strange rules which have inexorable, unnatural and constant results. "Blow this horn, and the walls of a castle will fall." "Look back at your wife, and she will return to the land of the dead." Of course we puny humans don't understand WHY these rules exist. Where were we when God hung the stars in the sky?
Still, if being able to go to heaven only through Jesus' sacrifice seems strange, going to heaven for ANY reason is even stranger and more miraculous. Why strain at a gnat? If heaven exists at all, why should we understand the rules about getting there?
(Of course the Fundamentalists who think they know who is "saved" and who is not weren't there when God hung the stars from the sky, either. For who can know the Mind of God?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
..and that's exactly where believers end up when the logical going gets tough. "Who can know the mind of God?" "God's ineffableness is beyond human comprehension." "Hey - beats me, but I'm sure God knows what he's doing...."
Well, in order to take that position - which you're absolutely entitled to do - you have to have a preceding belief in the existence of God that enables you to lend him that kind of confidence.
Me, I find it impossible to believe in a Supreme Being who appears either not to have thought things through ("....oh, hang on - there was no need for the whole redeemed-by-the-blood-of-the-Lamb thing. I could've applied the 'law unto themselves' technique to everyone...") or who has created a system of justice that, although it applies to me, is impossible for me to understand, but I'm expected to just trust him that it's all fair and consistent.
Neither of those deities - the woolly thinker or the capricious obscurist - has any business trying to run a Universe. In fact it's pretty difficult to see how he could.
Well, no leader has ever been perfect and none is ever really fit to run a country, a world, or the masses.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
If there is a God (which I highly doubt) he's just as fallible, vengeful, vain and irrational as the rest of us. After all, He invented us (or we invented him).
This seems like a very self-centered view of the universe. The idea is: I won’t “believe in” anything I can’t understand -- as if we are God and can't create anything we don't understand. I suppose we could apply this to Relativity, or Chaos Theory, or any number of scientific or philosophical ideas which are also difficult to understand. The question, though, is not whether you can “believe in” something, but whether the internal logic of the system is inconsistent. When Hades made the condition that if Orpheus looked back, Euridyce would return to the land of the dead was he capricious, or a wooly thinker? Perhaps he was – but that doesn’t ruin the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
If, of course, the key question about a story is whether we can “believe in” it, then we might examine every plot detail in terms of whether it adds credence to the story. I’ll grant that many Christians DO frame the Christian myth in these terms. Nonetheless, it seems silly for non-believers to frame it in these terms. After all, many of us DON’T “believe in” the Christian myth any more than we “believe in” the Euridyce story. Indeed, some of us (me, for example) see the historical “truth” of both stories as irrelevant. In order to grasp the story, some suspension of disbelief is required – just as it is when we read Anna Karennina. If every aspect of the story is contaminated by “I find it impossible to believe…” we will never see any truths that ARE embedded in the story.
Oh, I understand the story. If that's all God requires of me, I'm safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
i vehemently disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by PoeticPassions
my beliefs aside, God must be infallible to be God, right? if God is NOT infallible, then He is merely powerful. Castro was powerful, but is he God? the very nature of some "God" existing, is that the "God being" is superior to us, as we are humans. Gods, regardless of religious belief are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. if lacking is perfect, the god-like qualities fade and that being becomes of one us.
That's simply not true of - for instance - the Greek Gods, the Roman Gods, the Norse Gods, the Hindu Gods, the African pantheistic Gods, the Aboriginal Gods. In fact, pretty much every God except the Judaeo-Christian God has been other than omniscient (hence the intrigue and deceit), absolutely not omnipotent (because there are winners and losers in every encounter) and anything but omnipresent (because there's no story if everyone in it is everywhere all the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdean
Obviously, the Norse Gods are doomed to lose their battle with the Giants at Ragnorok. So they are not omnipotent (far from it). It seems to me that the Jewish God was CALLED omnipotent to compare him with the (lesser) Gods of other cultures. I mean, Odin might be called "the all-knowing and all powerful Odin" at some point, even though it's clear from the story that this is hyperbole.
Christians, Muslims and Jews will be a lovely bunch in Heaven. God is welcome to them.
Well, in that case you're one up on me, (and probably) the Pope, Thomas Acquinas, and Bishop Tutu. Most of us don't think we understand the story (at least not completely). Many of those who have studied it for a lifetime -- brilliant, dilligent men and great scholars -- don't claim to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
The Pope doesn't think that he is God's representative on earth or anything, does he? The Saint and Tutu also do a lot of talking for men without understanding, not to mention the lesser entities that infect Christendom with bombast and bluster. The story is that they get saved no matter what their atrocities against common humanity. It gives them a lot to talk about whereas otherwise they would be a complete blank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
No, the point was that if people who have actually studied the story don't understand what it means, how can MarkBastable. (Perhaps MarkBastable is a Treasure Seeker, and has worked as hard at understanding the Bible as the Bastable children did at restoring the fallen fortunes of the House of Bastable on Lewisham Road, in which case I apologize.)Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
What's hard to understand? Love doesn't get you into Heaven, righteousness does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
"There is none righteous, no, not one." -- Romans, 3:10.
(And, yes, the Bible is hard to understand. So is G L Wilson. So similar, and yet so distant.)
You come at me with Paul? Read on in Romans and see what there is to find. Nonetheless, Heaven is poorly populated. As Nietzsche said, "In Heaven, all the interesting people are missing." There will be a lot of good people down in hell, why should I be afraid to go there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
i don;t believe that's the message of the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
yes, righteousness is req'd.
no, we aren't righteous.
yes, Jesus was.
we get in, therefore, through Him.
no, we still aren't righteous.
this would be considered the christian belief in a nutshell, yes?
No, the Christian belief is that we are made righteous through faith in Jesus Christ. There is no other way into Heaven. The Catholics are wrong; even if the texts contradict, where is the Good in error? Nowhere, I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdean
GL, "the Catholic's are wrong" was thrown in quite randomly in my opinion. care to explain how that relates? i agree with your statement, but perhaps for different reasons...
i believe that what you say concerning the christian belief is true, but it is held that we are considered righteous, seen righteous, by accepting Christ's sacrifice. that still doesn't make us righteous. correct?
Catholicism attains that salvation by good works is possible. The doctrine is either incorrect or not depending on your point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdean
I would say so but I am not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdean
We're obviously talking about different levels of understanding then. You're talking about some level that no-one can understand - yes? So, we're back to my thing about believers citing the unknowable ineffableness of the mind of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
And, as I say, if this question of God's judgement does encompass a level of understanding that's beyond us, then God has broken a very fundamental rule of natural justice, which is that the judged should be able to understand the system of justice by which they are being judged. They shouldn't have to simply take on trust that it's fair.
If, on the other hand, you're saying that the very idea of God is beyond us all, then, again, I think God is being capricious. Having created children who are incapable of comprehending him, he has no one to blame but himself if they don't get it. If I were a bright orange god who smelled strongly of celery, it'd be pretty unsporting of me to create blind creatures with no noses, and then to blame them for not being able to find me.
:lol:
...celery...
My creation's got no nose.
Oh really? How does it smell? ...
I was Catholic the first 7 years of my life. I went to church every Sunday. My father was Catholic, and my mother was Protestant, so it was confusing. My mother contradicted the Catholic teachings to us. Still, I went to church every Sunday. My father was a very violent person; he tortured us in various ways. I remember one day, my father told me that God watched me all the time, that He could always see me. I remember saying in amazement, "He sees me now? Right now?" My father said "yes." I never understood too much about God or the church or anything, but I understood that God was watching me.
So, as I got older, I wondered, "Why didn't God ever speak to me, a small child?" He spoke to Moses in a burning bush. So why wouldn't He speak to a child who was terrified and in pain? I can see if He had given my father free-will, then maybe He wouldn't want to step in and interfere, but why not just speak and explain to me that although my father was being allowed to do what he did, it wasn't right, and that we children didn't deserve what we were getting, that God didn't approve, and that there would be a light on the other side for us. But we were just left in a very deep, very black hole.
God's love is supposed to be greater than any human love. I, as a human, couldn't stand by and just watch a child or animal suffer and do nothing, not even speak to him/her/it. So I don't know if there is some concept here that is so BIG I simply can't understand it. It's for sure that if there is a concept, I don't understand it. But I try to have an open mind about God, and just say that I don't know. I think whatever God is, we can never understand it with our human brains.
[QUOTE=G L Wilson;1054852]Catholicism attains that salvation by good works is possible. The doctrine is either incorrect or not depending on your point of view.
[QUOTE]
is that really a belief held by all Catholics or only a select few? does it even make sense for one to be saved by good works? due to varying definitions of "good works," salvation would never be assured.
did you pick one belief to follow or no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny