Is Our Culture Ready for the Trashcan?

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I wonder if it's because they see it as a skill that the kids develop themselves?

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Perhaps, but that is hardly a solid foundation to take out into a competitive world. Being able to use Facebook/My Space and all the rest of it, is hardly going to carry much weight with potential employers. Instead, actually, I just think that it's another backwards decision from the Etonians.

Oh, and to throw out another wasted anecdote (otherwise known as an empirical observation of the world which holds weight in many philosophical or political contexts but not on Lit Net) that comes back to me from the IT department and English, many of these whizz students at 13/14/15 do not know the very basic things like copy and paste, how change the font on Word etc, etc. Yes, they can manage their Facebook accounts and are brilliant with phones, but many struggle more than people might think with the basic stuff.

For me leaving IT to chance is not the way forward.

I agree with you Neely. I was just wondering what the rationale for it was back then. We get young adults who are rubbish with IT too. I bet it was the money.

Absolutely it is all about the money I suspect. But is it not a question of cutting the nose off?

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Originally Posted by Neely

Absolutely it is all about the money I suspect. But is it not a question of cutting the nose off?

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Maybe. The propsals were pre-credit crunch, but it might have had lots of hardware implications even so.

I agree about not teaching IT, but what about other stuff? How about a class for teaching everything a person needs to know when they get out into the "real world." Things like buying a house (when, where, how, why? Buying versus renting) paying a mortgage (what a mortgage is, why you get one, benefits of having one, how to pay one off, etc.), paying taxes (sales tax, income tax, yearly taxes), getting a job (this is sometimes addressed, but not enough--usually it's just how to do an interview), and the numerous other things that I can't think of that one has to do to be an adult.

We teach kids plenty of things that they will never use, and neglect giving them essential knowledge which leaves most of them lost when first encountered.

How about a mandatory class every morning about the importance of respecting other people so you have millions of friends - and the importance of independent reading so that you always have something to talk about, and philosophy so they see both sides of an argument, and how to spot a con - and cause and effect so they avoid doing anything ridiculous, and and and...

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Originally Posted by MystyrMystyry

How about a mandatory class every morning about the importance of respecting other people so you have millions of friends - and the importance of independent reading so that you always have something to talk about, and philosophy so they see both sides of an argument, and how to spot a con - and cause and effect so they avoid doing anything ridiculous, and and and...

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I assume you're mocking me? Or others? If so, I'm not sure to what end.

You might laugh at kids going out into the real world without any idea of how to do that stuff, but it's kind of a big issue. Hell, I can barely do my own taxes and mine are very uncomplicated. It's stuff that parents should be teaching, but a lot aren't.

Also, considering most people don't read independently or see both sides of an argument...I mean...

Mutatis - not mocking anyone, just got tired of the line I've been towing for years (thus the and and and...)

Hurricane - state schools just need an internal agenda on the fundamentals of education's aims - I mean we're way past the Gradgrind stage of facts facts facts - right now with all the open thought amongst teachers would be the perfect time to try something that will stick

Discuss openly the modern media culture in forum groups involving the students and they'll soon adapt to the concept that their ideas and contributions are as valid as anyone's, if they initially don't feel like talking, they'll soon learn to when they see their mates doing it, and perhaps also discover a new element to their self-esteem, and that it's fun

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Originally Posted by Hurricane

Hell, I can barely do my own taxes and mine are very uncomplicated.

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Me, neither. And unfortunately I procrastinate.

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Originally Posted by MystyrMystyry

How about a mandatory class every morning about the importance of respecting other people so you have millions of friends - and the importance of independent reading so that you always have something to talk about, and philosophy so they see both sides of an argument, and how to spot a con - and cause and effect so they avoid doing anything ridiculous, and and and...

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This begins in primary school and is taken all through the school system. I'm not saying it works in every school, but they're all trying it in the UK.

How do you do a class on spotting a con? A con is a new short scam that, by it's very nature, will work until enough people are warned about it.

I also don't see how cause and effect can halt the experience of being ridiculous occaisionally. And anyway - there's no better way to learn. Humiliation is a powerful memory tool... I find...

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

How do you do a class on spotting a con?

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By teaching simple logic - if A -> B, then C.

A few simple aphorisms like "if it's too good to be true..." might help as well.

Also, not a kid in the developed world doesn't know what spam is and most of them are scams, so there are lots of relevant examples to hand. They know that they haven't really won 89.4 Euros in a lottery.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

By teaching simple logic - if A -> B, then C.

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What kind of logic is that?

[QUOTE=The Atheist;1019672].

A few simple aphorisms like "if it's too good to be true..." might help as well.QUOTE]

Alot of people are guided by 'if it walks like a duck....' Some of these scams are very good. There are entire call centres dedicated to the cause. They prey on the penny wise pound foolish population (which is often the older generation!) They are very difficult to investigate.

here is one such example:

http://www.ato.gov.au/onlineservices....htm&page=6&H6

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

By teaching simple logic - if A -> B, then C.

A few simple aphorisms like "if it's too good to be true..." might help as well.

Also, not a kid in the developed world doesn't know what spam is and most of them are scams, so there are lots of relevant examples to hand. They know that they haven't really won 89.4 Euros in a lottery.

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I agree about the internet scams etc. I was thinking - rather narrowly about the cons that people do on you face to face, where other factors can affect events like distraction, or false confidence.

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Originally Posted by billl

What kind of logic is that?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Alot of people are guided by 'if it walks like a duck....' Some of these scams are very good.

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I'm not so sure that they're as good as they appear on the surface - I've busted dozens of them They all have a common theme of appealing to greed, but even the well-designed ones almost always direct to an obviously incorrect url. They're slowly getting there - I received a tax refund one the other day that directed to something like: http/ird.govt.nz.scammingbastards.com

No doubt a few people never read further than the ird.govt.nz.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I agree about the internet scams etc. I was thinking - rather narrowly about the cons that people do on you face to face, where other factors can affect events like distraction, or false confidence.

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I think you can carry the same ideas into real-life situations though. My kids are bombarded daily with rumours, urban myth and downright baloney from their friends at school. Despite their age - 11 & 8 - they seem to be able to spot the stupid pretty easily.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic



I'm not so sure that they're as good as they appear on the surface - I've busted dozens of them They all have a common theme of appealing to greed, but even the well-designed ones almost always direct to an obviously incorrect url. They're slowly getting there - I received a tax refund one the other day that directed to something like: http/ird.govt.nz.scammingbastards.com

No doubt a few people never read further than the ird.govt.nz.



I think you can carry the same ideas into real-life situations though. My kids are bombarded daily with rumours, urban myth and downright baloney from their friends at school. Despite their age - 11 & 8 - they seem to be able to spot the stupid pretty easily.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

How do you do a class on spotting a con?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

By teaching simple logic - if A -> B, then C.

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Originally Posted by billl

What kind of logic is that?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

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I'm pretty sure you must've been in a rush (or something...), but my best guess is that you meant to represent the modus ponens argument in symbolic form.

That would be,

A -> B
A_____
B.

Your hasty example actually mixes English (if... then...) and symbolic logic ( -> ), and reads (when fully tranlsated into English):

IF (if A then B) then C.

This translated statement could possibly represent a useful assertion, but it does not stand on its own as an example of logical deduction.

It might represent a con of some sort, of course. More likely a way to rule out a con, perhaps... How about:
A = using the product
B = life gets better
C = buy the product

:thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by billl

I'm pretty sure you must've been in a rush (or something...), but my best guess is that you meant to represent the modus ponens argument in symbolic form.

That would be,

A -> B
A_____
B.

Your hasty example actually mixes English (if... then...) and symbolic logic ( -> ), and reads (when fully tranlsated into English):

IF (if A then B) then C.

This translated statement could possibly represent a useful assertion, but it does not stand on its own as an example of logical deduction.

It might represent a con of some sort, of course. More likely a way to rule out a con, perhaps... How about:
A = using the product
B = life gets better
C = buy the product

:thumbs_up

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Someone just got logic pwned. :lol:

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Originally Posted by billl

I'm pretty sure you must've been in a rush (or something...),

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Just lazy.

:)

Similar reason, sort of--anyhow it was of course a valid point being made.

Regarding the education of kids against *online* scams, I remember seeing a website about how to avoid phishing and dangerous urls, etc., and really I think there's a lot of adults (esp. the elderly, like Paul mentioned) that need that sort of education, as well.

Also, I remembered that when I was in high school (the eightis) there was a class called Civics, in which we learned about our government, the stock market, drug abuse, probably checkbooks, and even spent an hour on deceptive advertising and retail shopping scams. I remember "bait-and-switch" was one of the scams, but that's it.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Instead, actually, I just think that it's another backwards decision from the Etonians.

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Neely I have come to respect your opinion on the forums, but I cant let a comment like that go. Why is it that that comment of yours is accepted and unchallenged, yet if I were to say

"education is being ruined because it is no longer designed for the elite, but instead it panders to the working class masses; thereby lowering it's intellectual and cultural teachings"

This comment would be heavily opposed and people would find it offensive. (not that I particularly agree with the comment I made, merely using it as a hypothetical example of an opinion of mine)

The stereotype that the upper classes are unscrupulous and only care for the augmentation of their wealth is as true as the stereotype that all lower class individuals are thick-headed simpletons.

So I see no reason to pander to stereotypes.

( I have a close friend who studied at eton, so I found your remark to be insulting to me and him)

Well firstly sorry for any offence caused, that was never my attention and it would not sit well with me if I have done that, so apologies there if that is the case.

I have absolutely nothing against the well-off or privileged. Neither do I want to issue forth stereotypes of any kind. My comment was aimed at one particular prominent Etonian and his side-kick Robin (who didn't go to Eton) who I don’t particularly admire, shall we say? It’s not that I even dislike him (them) as people, (though I don’t particularly like them either) but rather it is the effect of their actions that bothers, and at times, angers me – if I let it. It was this in this aspect that my comment was made.

Maybe saying "Etonian" was not helpful though, I suppose. Though hopefully not as vindictive as saying something like "we do not want people from places like Sheffield affording holidays abroad" as one muliti-millionaire advisor uttered this week. I can't say I was impressed with that one.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Though hopefully not as vindictive as saying something like "we do not want people from places like Sheffield affording holidays abroad" as one muliti-millionaire advisor uttered this week. I can't say I was impressed with that one.

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Who said that? AlthoughI too don't like stereotypes, I have heard things like that from some priviledged people.

I can't remember his name. A classmate was telling me about it the other day. I know he's some sort of government advisor though, if I find out I'll get back to you.

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Originally Posted by Neely

I can't remember his name. A classmate was telling me about it the other day. I know he's some sort of government advisor though, if I find out I'll get back to you.

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Thanks.

Here we are Paul, Oliver Letwin.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/most-po...5875-23033993/

Of course, the irony here is that this "person" went to Eton!

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Originally Posted by Neely

Here we are Paul, Oliver Letwin.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/most-po...5875-23033993/

Of course, the irony here is that this "person" went to Eton!

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Hilarious to see two old Etonians scrapping over another airport for London. Despite his silly remark about Sheffield, Letwin does have a point though because if we go on building runways, we will end up looking like Airstrip One as Orwell (another old Etonian) suggested.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Well firstly sorry for any offence caused, that was never my attention and it would not sit well with me if I have done that, so apologies there if that is the case.

I have absolutely nothing against the well-off or privileged. Neither do I want to issue forth stereotypes of any kind. My comment was aimed at one particular prominent Etonian and his side-kick Robin (who didn't go to Eton) who I don’t particularly admire, shall we say? It’s not that I even dislike him (them) as people, (though I don’t particularly like them either) but rather it is the effect of their actions that bothers, and at times, angers me – if I let it. It was this in this aspect that my comment was made.

Maybe saying "Etonian" was not helpful though, I suppose. Though hopefully not as vindictive as saying something like "we do not want people from places like Sheffield affording holidays abroad" as one muliti-millionaire advisor uttered this week. I can't say I was impressed with that one.

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Ahh ok I see you comment was addressed at a particular individual there is nothing wrong with that, just the way i read it it seemed a generalization against all etonians.

Wow I can't believe someone actually said "we do not want people from places like Sheffield affording holidays abroad" actually I can believe someone said that, but I can believe that they had the idiocy to get caught saying that.

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Originally Posted by Neely

Here we are Paul, Oliver Letwin.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/most-po...5875-23033993/

Of course, the irony here is that this "person" went to Eton!

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Although I, like Alex III have met really nice people from all levels of society - I think it just gives a snifter of the attitudes of a certain echelon. You take the odd instances of comments over the years and you realise - as I have experienced - that whereas racist and sexual slurs are now frowned upon by most, class prejudice is still there in the attitudes in some of the most priviledged in society. And this bloke has got a big influence in running the country. Annoying and frustrating.

It might be wiser to restrain one's comments on 'toffs' given that a number of public figures either went to Eton or were members of the Bullingdon club.
They look like the kind of people who would cut up rough and it would be most undignified to have members of Litnet debagged. That blond guy in the front row looks decidedly dangerous.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3...ingdonclub.jpg


Andrew Gimson, biographer of Boris Johnson, reported about the club in the 1980s: "I don't think an evening would have ended without a restaurant being trashed and being paid for in full, very often in cash. A night in the cells would be regarded as being par for a Buller man and so would debagging anyone who really attracted the irritation of the Buller men."

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

It might be wiser to restrain one's comments on 'toffs' given that a number of public figures either went to Eton or were members of the Bullingdon club.
They look like the kind of people who would cut up rough and it would be most undignified to have members of Litnet debagged. That blond guy in the front row looks decidedly dangerous.

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3...ingdonclub.jpg


Andrew Gimson, biographer of Boris Johnson, reported about the club in the 1980s: "I don't think an evening would have ended without a restaurant being trashed and being paid for in full, very often in cash. A night in the cells would be regarded as being par for a Buller man and so would debagging anyone who really attracted the irritation of the Buller men."

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They are posing as if they were in Duran Duran. They don't look so tough.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

They are posing as if they were in Duran Duran. They don't look so tough.

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Nevertheless, I would hang on to the trousers just in case. People who go around trashing restaurants are usually quite capable of debagging their opponents. I'm wouldn't mind betting that Dave and George are just waiting to jump young Miliband in one of those darkened corridors of the House of Commons.

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Originally Posted by Emil Miller

Nevertheless, I would hang on to the trousers just in case. People who go around trashing restaurants are usually quite capable of debagging their opponents. I'm wouldn't mind betting that Dave and George are just waiting to jump young Miliband in one of those darkened corridors of the House of Commons.

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:lol:

Yes, my money's on the Bulls for that one.

Perhaps Milliband would get all nostalgic for it.

:lol:

I hear our friend (second top from the left) is surprised and outraged that not many "blacks" (i.e. one) have gone to Eton in the last 100 odd years. I mean, as if he's really shocked at this?

Boris really is such a clown, just had to say that - he's a big daft bear (but at least he defended "Northern folk" in the outburst with that scum chap.

I think you raise an interested point Paul regarding class prejudice. I think the UK has made great strides in terms of attitudes to homosexual and ethnic minorities over the last 20 years or so, but for me at least, there still seems to be plenty of class prejudice about.

I look forward to the day when a person is really judged (if people have to be "judged" by others) by the "content of their characters" and not by the intonation of their accents...we can hope.

Much of the "vulgarity" involves commercialized mass entertainment. One should consider, though, that such entertainment requires increasing levels of industrialization and mechanized agriculture, which in turn requires an abundance of oil and other resources.

The U.S. military, Lloyd's of London, the IEA, Morgan Stanley, and other organizations have reported that we may experience a permanent drop in global oil production by 2015, likely 2013. Since much of what we have requires a lot of oil (esp. petrochemicals) then that drop will lead to the destruction of a middle class lifestyle, which includes commercialized mass entertainment, and in the long term, problems ranging from food shortage to lack of medicine. Since other sources of energy cannot provide petrochemicals or have low energy returns, then we will experience much difficulty attempting to use these to replace oil. According to the IEA, at best, we will only be able to raise global energy production by around 9 percent during the next three decades. Meanwhile, demand may rise by around 2 percent each year.

Worse, this problem is accompanied by two others: debt-driven economies and the effects of pollution, including environmental damage and climate change.

Given that, we can probably argue that we may see a return to earlier forms of entertainment in the near future and in the long term.

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Originally Posted by Neely

:lol:

I hear our friend (second top from the left) is surprised and outraged that not many "blacks" (i.e. one) have gone to Eton in the last 100 odd years. I mean, as if he's really shocked at this?
I look forward to the day when a person is really judged (if people have to be "judged" by others) by the "content of their characters" and not by the intonation of their accents...we can hope.

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Given that it costs £26,400 a year to send a boy to Eton, it's unlikely that things will change radically in respect of its intake. The occasional token black
pupil may be there for window-dressing but this extract from a Daily Telegraph
article highlights the kind of people who actually go there.


..... the sheer number of Old Etonians prominent in all areas of life is a new phenomenon. Boris Johnson, David Cameron, Johnny Boden, Hugh Laurie, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, Zac Goldsmith, Damian Lewis, James Palumbo … the list goes on.

And last summer, a smattering of reports drew attention to the fact that no fewer than 14 Tory front-bench spokesmen were educated at Eton.

The headmaster of my prep school, a man of royalist leanings, was fond of a story, dating from the mid-1960s, about a young boy who was stopped by an American tourist on Eton High Street: "Tell me, son," said the Texan, "is it true that you have to be a lord to go to Eton?"
The boy considered this strange question: "Well," he replied, "you don't have to be. But we all are." :lol:

Brilliant.:lol:

What annoys me is the blindingly obvious outcome from a priviledged and well supported education, with all the positive reinforcement and the connections that are nurtured, is that they turn out to be well educated people in well paid jobs running the country. Anyone given those kinds of priviledges would be hard pressed not to do well. Yet you can smell the attitude some of them have to those of us who didn't have all that. And then there are those who have a positively debilitating upbringing and education, not just a so-so one. Such inequalities have ever been there. It does make the achievements of those who didn't have all that all the more impressive.

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Given that it costs £26,400 a year to send a boy to Eton, it's unlikely that things will change radically in respect of its intake.

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Absolutely, good point, though the costs have gone up a little (for some reason I looked last week?) now it costs a few pounds shy of £30,000 a year - not that money is an object for the top classes.

(Again, I don't hate those who have it, rather, I feel sorry for those millions who are good enough but never get the opportunity.)

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Brilliant.:lol:

What annoys me is the blindingly obvious outcome from a priviledged and well supported education, with all the positive reinforcement and the connections that are nurtured, is that they turn out to be well educated people in well paid jobs running the country. Anyone given those kinds of priviledges would be hard pressed not to do well. Yet you can smell the attitude some of them have to those of us who didn't have all that. And then there are those who have a positively debilitating upbringing and education, not just a so-so one. Such inequalities have ever been there. It does make the achievements of those who didn't have all that all the more impressive.

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Yes, true. It is all about those contacts if you ask me. It's like the local pub team trying to beat Man Utd on a 70 degree uphill pitch with a bias linesman. When someone does succeed in spite of all the odds, it is great and all of that, however it doesn't help in the long-term because they then become the exception to the rule and glorified, selling the system as truly socially mobile (think John Prescott if you must). The reality though is pretty obvious.