The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

Example of correct translation of Bach's own (ahemm!) words

Guido De Winne wrote (January 30, 2004):

During 1720 Bach made fair copies of the works for unaccompanied violin, and must have been preparing the Brandenburg Concertos, whose autograph full score was dedicated on 24 March 1721 to the Margrave Christian Ludwig, before whom Bach had played in Berlin while negotiating for the new Cöthen harpsichord, between June 1718 and March 1719. What he played is not known; but he was invited to send in some compositions. As he himself said he took ‘a couple of years’ over this commission, and then submitted six works written to exploit the resources of Cöthen. Such resources do not seem to have been available to the Margrave of Brandenburg, and it is not really surprising that he did not thank Bach, send a fee or use the score
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert,

The correct translation of "schiks" is "sends" (alternatively "mails", "posts", "delivers by courrier").

"Presented" is wrong and misleading at best (its outright fraud imo but so is almost everything concerning Handel/Bach) whereas "dedicated" is, as already said, aestheticaly better but stil wrong, misleading etc.

The use of a wrong and misleading translation by two different british Handel/Bach scholars furthermore is indicative of a pattern, confirmed finally by ...

...your refusal to:

-address in detail (instead of "empty" -ie beside the point-answers, a sentence by sentence commentary, as I often did on your posts on Mozart) issues raised by me, such as Bach's systematic use of Handel's music (Brocke's passion, post #122)

-provide-previously asked for-british "original sources ple-e-ease"

-challlenge, as repeatedly asked, my timelines on Handel/Bach ie provide concrete and well sourced evidence (not by Bach's sons or Wieland) that at any specific date Bach was at a different place than Handel

-satisfactorily explain, much like all other musicologists, Bach's inherent influences of french-italian-bohemian music.

Regards.

Yanni has asked about -

''Bach's systematic use of Handel's music''.

Goodness, Yanni, you are really a glutton for punishment, aren't you ?

I will answer you (although it will show you have never examined this subject in detail, have you ?)

Bach's 'systematic use of Handel's music' ? LOL !!!!

You have no idea what you are talking about ! The Brocke's Passion is yet another work credited to Handel. The facts are that it is widely recognised to be very difficult to attribute it to Handel. It was first set to music not by GF Handel nor even by JS Bach but by Keiser (1712). Why not check this for yourself before you make a bigger fool of yourself ? And this was later set to music by another composer, Telemann (1716). This before Handel was ever remotely associated with it ! Keiser and Telemann were two different composers who, (just by one of those remarkable coincidences !!!!) were both closely associated with opera in Hamburg. But this too you do not know. It seems to have escaped you. Nor do you know 3 operas associated with the same Keiser had been stolen and used by G.F. Handel before he, Handel, ever came to England !! In fact before Handel ever left Germany. That has also escaped you. It is yet another chapter of musical history that seems to have escaped you.

And it gets worse.

It was in that same city (Hamburg) where the first of these 'Handel' works were first attributed to Handel at its perfomance (alleged) in 1719. Where ? At the HAMBURG cathedral !!!!! Are you getting the picture of what is happening yet ?

A 'Handel' work was first performed (along with dozens of other works over years) under J.S. Bach at Leipzig in 1746. A very common event. Because J.S. Bach often performed musical works of others. In fact Bach made many, many arrangements of works by other composers. He kept himself very well informed as everyone knows. The works of Antonio Vivaldi are only one such example. There are literally dozens of well known examples. They are even available as a list. Would you like a list of the different composers music students at Leipzig heard while Bach was Kapellmeister ? They are freely available and are openly published for everyone to see.

A pasticcio version of the same 'Handel' work (which means it was cobbled together from the work of various people) was STILL being attributed to the same Keiser and NOT TO HANDEL (as you see yourself above) when it was performed at Leipzig with the Brocke Passion (itself associated as said with Keiser from the start). This now being credited by others to GF Handel and used for a Mark Passion with 7 arias from the other 'Handel' work !

Thus, with growing evidence of Handel obtaining at each and every stage of his career (as repeatedly said) quantities of operatic and church music from numerous other composers - (even when these works have a history of being attributed to Keiser, to Telemann and others) we must blame this growing nonsense on the Kapellmeister of Leipzig, J.S. Bach !!!! And not on Handel !!!!!!!!!!!!

What a universe of confusion you seem to live in, Yanni !!! And the worst thing is it's really not your fault. I am giving you my considered view of these facts, having said from the start that composers of the 18th century, and specially those who have iconic status in the 'history of music' were being artificially manufactured. Of which the musical career of G.F. Handel is but one example. That 'machine' was operating in Bach's own lifetime and continued to operate in the case of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart, and even Ludwig van Beethoven. Since the evidence is already growing in the case of Handel it is for you to decide whether it has any relevance to your Bach/Handel theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg5-_...eature=related

Anyone going thru http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm can see that Handel's biography is but an unsuccessful effort to separate Handel/Bach into two individual persons.

Whatever Handel composed, created, copied or conducted, Bach did, so your attacks against Handel are in fact reflected on Bach (his own life story full of attempts to find a better paying master, just like Handel) and it was I who first mentioned the unknown Telemann.

But, do not interupt your attempt to keep you baloon up: Please proceed to answer whatever more you can afford from my previous.

Ta-ta!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni has asked about -

Bach's systematic use of Handel's music.

Goodness, Yanni, you are a glutton for punishment, aren't you ?

I will answer you (although it will show you have never examined this subject in any detail, have you ?)

Bach's 'systematic use of Handel's music' ? LOL !!!!

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about ! The Brocke's Passion is another work credited to Handel which was first set to music not by Handel or even by Bach but by Keiser (1712). Why not check this before you make a fool of yourself ? And it was later set to music by Telemann (1716). This before Handel was ever associated with it ! Keiser and Telemann were two composers who, (just by a remarkable coincidence !!!!) were both closely associated with opera in Hamburg. But this too you do not know. Nor do you know 3 of this same Keiser's operas were stolen and used by Handel before he ever came to England !! That fact also has escaped you.

And it gets worse.

It was in that same city (Hamburg) where the first of these 'Handel' works were first attributed to Handel at their perfomance (alleged) in 1719. Where ? At the HAMBURG cathedral !!!!! Are you getting the picture yet ?

A 'Handel' work was first performed (along with dozens of other works) under J.S. Bach at Leipzig in 1746. A very common event. Because J.S. Bach often performed musical works of others. Bach made many, many arrangements of works by other composers. He kept himself very well informed. The works of Vivaldi are only one example. There are dozens of such examples. They are available as a list. Would you like a list of the different composers music students at Leipzig heard there while Bach was Kapellmeister ? They are freely available and are openly published for everyone to see.

A pasticcio version of the same 'Handel' work (which means it was cobbled together from the work of various people) was still being attributed to the same Hamburg KEISER and NOT TO HANDEL (as you see yourself above) when it was performed at Leipzig with the Brocke Passion (itself associated as said with Keiser from the start as we have seen above). This now being credited by others to Handel and used for a Mark Passion with 7 arias from the 'Handel' work.

Thus, with growing evidence of Handel obtaining at every stage of his career quantities of operatic and church music from various other composers - even when it already has a history of being attributed to Keiser, Telemann and others we must blame this nonsense on J.S. Bach !!!! And not on Handel !!!!!!!!!!!!

What a universe of confusion you seem to live in, Yanni !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg5-_...eature=related

---

I am attacking nobody and nothing. I am presenting evidence after evidence that the musical career of G.F. Handel was massively fabricated before he ever left Germany. That this continued in Rome, in Venice, and in England. And that it was still continuing in Germany as late as the last years of Handel's life. I am presenting documentary examples of this fact. And letters saying so of the time.

You may believe what you like. You are free to do so. I have presented some of the evidence. And it seems to me that your theory has nothing in its support. Since Handel (and not Bach) was a major European musical celebrity. With a reputation built upon example after example of fraud, musical misattribution and downright dishonesty. Does that matter ? I think it does.

Best wishes

"Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived.
I would bare my head and kneel at his grave"
-- L.v. Beethoven (1824)

My compliments to http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

I am attacking nobody and nothing. I am presenting evidence after evidence that the musical career of G.F. Handel was massively fabricated before he ever left Germany. That this continued in Rome, in Venice, and in England. And that it was still continuing in Germany as late as the last years of Handel's life. I am presenting documentary examples of this fact. And letters saying so of the time.

You may believe what you like. You are free to do so. I have presented some of the evidence. And it seems to me that your theory has nothing in its support. Since Handel (and not Bach) was a major European musical celebrity. With a reputation built upon example after example of fraud, musical misattribution and downright dishonesty. Does that matter ? I think it does.

Best wishes

---

Yes, and if Beethoven said so, it must be true, right Yanni ? The same Beethoven who said Mozart must have written 'his' Requiem (although it was proved in 1825 to be by numerous other composers including Michael Haydn of Salzburg).

The same Beethoven who, in 1783, as a 13 year old boy, was recruited and cared for by the same fraternities who had patronised Mozart. Who patronised his family (courtesy of the British Empire). And the child prodigy described in the Illuminati publication 'Cramer's Magazine' (of that same year) as 'the next Mozart'.

With such 'evidences' we can only laugh Beethoven's standard endorsement of the legendary Handel. Must be Count Waldstein and his close association with occultists at Dux and elsewhere. Casanova must be laughing.

You really should listen to music by Beethoven's contemporaries - almost none of whom are recorded or performed. As usual.

Take George Onslow (1784-1853), for example. 'George...who' ?? As famous as Beethoven during Beethoven's lifetime in Vienna and in Berlin and across Europe but airbrushed out of the 'history of music'. With all the rest. What's new ?

http://www.mediafire.com/?nz2nommdm4b

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

"Handel is the greatest composer who ever lived.
I would bare my head and kneel at his grave"
-- L.v. Beethoven (1824)

My compliments to http://www.gfhandel.org/chron1.htm.

---

May I remind you that this thread (on Handel and JSBach being the same person) still awaits the rest of your answers as above (post#139)?

If you find this is too difficult to do, just challlenge, as repeatedly asked, my timelines on Handel/Bach ie provide concrete and well sourced evidence (not by Bach's sons or Wieland) that at any specific date Bach was at a different place than Handel.

PS For Beethoven I suggest you google for "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" and then laugh if you must.

Yanni,

Most who read this thread will see the sum total of your argument (saying G.F. Handel was J.S. Bach and vice versa !) is based on no musical evidence nor even a single musical manuscript but a coincidence of dates, these crushed and spun inside your brain with the added fact (strangely denied by you) that fraternities were controlling western music - a fact anyone can agree with. And which involved clans such as Cocchi's (and many others) of which I'm aware. Beyond all doubt the career of G.F. Handel was massively manufactured at every stage. For reasons that require us to know a little more of the history of those times.

This manufacturing of famous musical careers became very common in the 18th century. It was part of the control of music as an emerging cultural and academic industry. It was a feature of the so-called 'enlightenment'. It later involved the writing of 'music history' as we know it. With the assistance of many music editors, the works of other composers whose names and careers are today largely forgotten, corrupt patrons, publishers and the usual Vaticanised control of a now 'secularised' world. And those who were not part of this system were marginalised, forgotten and suppressed from the pages of what is read and taught. This is fact. And Handel, Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven are examples of manufactured composers. I think any fair minded reader can see this. Mozart is a prime example.

Anyway, thank you. You should do more on the Cocchi clan and on the role of other manipulators of reality. It's a subject now being increasingly studied.

Handel learned that he, as a 'protestant composer' could still depend on the full support of Rome and Venice (supported by numerous cardinals and popes) in an age of ruthless biogtry and prejudice. Which fact you find easy to gloss over, as usual. You should add the influence of Britain, Rome and Venice.

The difficulty is only of not seeing the wood for the trees. You might try reading more history of these times and starting again. Because although I find nothing at all in your Handel/Bach idea there is value in your research and I think you have some idea of the scale of deliberate misinformation that is ours to expose simply by being honest.

A composer of tremendous talent -

Jan Dismas Zelenka
(1679-1745)
"Missa Votiva" in E Minor ZWV18 - Mov. 7-9/20 (1739)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1bGV...eature=related


Best wishes

Hitting a number of walls has at least left intact your capacity to recite your usual verse, Robert.

You are always wellcome to accept my repeated challenge to prove wrong my Handel/Bach find.

Until then,

my best wishes.
__________________________________________________ _____________

CPE Bach wrote in 1775: “… Bach esteemed highly Fux, Handel, Caldara, Keiser, Hasse, both Grauns, Telemann …” and a nine year old Mozart included the following dedication to Queen Charlotte: “Le me live, and one day I will offer to her [the queen] a gift… will equal the glory of all the great men of my country, I will become as immortal as Handel and Hasse, and my name will be as famous as that of [JC] Bach.”

Any wall we survive intact makes us stronger.

We cannot prove a negative. But we can prove a positive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Hitting a number of walls has at least left intact your capacity to recite your usual verse, Robert.

You are always wellcome to accept my repeated challenge to prove wrong my Handel/Bach find.

Until then,

my best wishes.
__________________________________________________ _____________

CPE Bach wrote in 1775: “… Bach esteemed highly Fux, Handel, Caldara, Keiser, Hasse, both Grauns, Telemann …” and a nine year old Mozart included the following dedication to Queen Charlotte: “Le me live, and one day I will offer to her [the queen] a gift… will equal the glory of all the great men of my country, I will become as immortal as Handel and Hasse, and my name will be as famous as that of [JC] Bach.”

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica

As Mark Twain said: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure and just ain't so!"

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Händel's Oratorium Der Messias nach W. A. Mozart's Bearbeitung. Leipzig: Breitkopf & Hartel, [1803].

The so-called 'Mozart' arrangement of 'Handel's' Oratorium 'Der Messias' is not by W.A. Mozart. It is by Joseph Starzer (1726-87) and others including Andrea Luchesi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_pugilistica

As Mark Twain said: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure and just ain't so!"

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________

Händel's Oratorium Der Messias nach W. A. Mozart's Bearbeitung. Leipzig: Breitkopf & Hartel, [1803].

---

If only you could tell us who Starzer (closely linked to my Saint Germain and his story) really was !!

Imo, Starzer was Haydn (ie Casanove etc, ie C.L.Cocceji) and this crosschecks with http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...read.php?t=297!

Mozart himself, writing to his father in 1782(or a year later propably), advises that at Van Swieten's only Handel/"Bach" was played (the quotes placed to doubt he ever mentioned JSBach-as Tomita claims).

...and here is Robert's relative text on Handel/Bach's 1803 Messiah "by Mozart" (who, as already said, became a cover for all music controlled by "Koch" sometime between 1784-1791 and therefore had then to "die" to be used as such!):

Prior to the time when Mozart supposedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten was NOT your hero W.A. Mozart but the composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

there is lots of evidence of Handel 'Messiah' arrangements being made BEFORE that which is today attributed to Mozart. That of Hiller is one example. There are many others. There are even performances of arrangements of parts of Handel's 'Messiah' documented years BEFORE Mozart supposedly arranged the piece. And we even have Italian language texts by Salieri. We have performances of Messiah in Italy before the supposed 'Mozart' arrangement. And we have the plain fact that Mozart could easily have consulted the players in making 'his' arrangement - if he ever made one. (quoted from another site).

Yanni,

I am not in the habit of going round and round in circles. Starzer was Starzer. He was not Josef Haydn. Starzer died before Josef Haydn came to London. Josef Haydn was Josef Haydn. If Starzer was not Starzer you can waste your time in inventing the idea that he was Ronald Macdonald. Starzer was (I must tell you) Starzer. That is who he was. And Starzer was not Mozart. Nor was Mozart Starzer. He was Mozart. And Bach was Bach. Bach was not Starzer also. Nor was he Mozart. And, as for Handel, he was not Mozart, nor was he Starzer, and nor was he Bach or Haydn. He was Handel.

I am so glad we sorted that out !!

And, if not....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGRbOjqOSYs&feature=fvw

:driving:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

If only you could tell us who Starzer (closely linked to my Saint Germain and his story) really was !!

Imo, Starzer was Haydn (ie Casanove etc, ie C.L.Cocceji) and this crosschecks with http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...read.php?t=297!

Mozart himself, writing to his father in 1782(or a year later propably), advises that at Van Swieten's only Handel/"Bach" was played (the quotes placed to doubt he ever mentioned JSBach-as Tomita claims).

...and here is Robert's relative text on Handel/Bach's 1803 Messiah "by Mozart" (who, as already said, became a cover for all music controlled by "Koch" sometime between 1784-1791 and therefore had then to "die" to be used as such!):

Prior to the time when Mozart supposedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten was NOT your hero W.A. Mozart but the composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

there is lots of evidence of Handel 'Messiah' arrangements being made BEFORE that which is today attributed to Mozart. That of Hiller is one example. There are many others. There are even performances of arrangements of parts of Handel's 'Messiah' documented years BEFORE Mozart supposedly arranged the piece. And we even have Italian language texts by Salieri. We have performances of Messiah in Italy before the supposed 'Mozart' arrangement. And we have the plain fact that Mozart could easily have consulted the players in making 'his' arrangement - if he ever made one. (quoted from another site).

---

Unless you change your habits, Robert, you'll never manage to surface from underneath the already characterized Grove-ling pile.

Furthermore:

-You just can't quote and approve one day Dennis Pajot (http://www.mozartforum.com/VB_forum/...read.php?t=297! and http://www.talkclassical.com/1621-di...ly-master.html, ), on Mozart copying or borrowing Haydn's "Bach" adaptations, and next blame me for reaching the same conclusion following another road (my timeline, not music), while changing your own previous tune to "Starzer did it" just to contradict me. Awfully rude manners (or perhaps Dr Alzheimer is to blame)!

-Have you perhaps concluded in the meantime thru original research that Joseph Starzer adapted or arranged "Handel-Mozart's Messiah" of 1803? Have you ever published or announced even such discovery to your fellow musicologists? Do tell us, ple-e-ase!

Apart from his 1757-176?' service in Russia (a highly indicative and suspect period, a highly critical post) Starzer has practically no biography* and the few works attributed to him are not significant enough to qualify him as Handel/Bach's succesor ie arranger! He may have nevertheless existed and may even have participated in performances of said adaptations somehow, somewhere, but that's all I am afraid!

Moreover:

You have already graced yourself aplenty by not being able to provide a single date (well sourced) when Bach was someplace else than Handel and the fact that at van Swieten's only Handel/Bach was played "graces" your dogmatic obstinacy even more, again "musicaly"!

For van Swieten's relations to Mozart, Haydn, Waldstein, Beethoven, the Bonn circle, the "Koch" music archive etc etc, see "The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs" (http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=54106&page=8) and earlier threads.

Ta-ta!

*Starzer is also on record for his ballet works and cooperation with Angiolini (or Giuseppe Canziani): Google for them in last thread above!

Yanni,

We have to use what we have. The 'Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians' (with a few other sources) are the standard reference works of their kind in the English speaking musical world. They are at least the starting point of what is taught and believed. From them we can make a start. But nobody is more critical of them than myself on Handel, Haydn, Mozart etc. So I must disagree with you. We start with them and from them we can go elsewhere.

Denis Pajot was not only talking of 'Handel' works such as Messiah. None of whose oratorios were actually arranged by Mozart. He was also talking about various Bach arrangements which are wrongly attributed to Mozart. Both of these things are plain fact. Mozart did not make these 'Handel' arrangements. Nor did he make the arrangements of Bach. Though all of them are usually (and falsely) attributed to Mozart. Pajot is one of dozens of people who know these arrangements may not be by Mozart. There are numerous other people who say the same. And there are good reasons to say so.

On the subject of Starzer, there is no doubt at all that he was involved in the falsification of Mozart's career. That he was an important part of the 'music industry' of the late 18th century. And yes, his career ties in with all the rest.

I have many references to his career besides that of the 'Grove' dictionary - here is one from the Cambridge Mozart Encyclopaedia -

Starzer, Joseph (Johann Michael) (baptized Vienna, 5 Jan. 1728; d. Vienna, 22 Apr. 1787). A prolific composer of ballet scores, Starzer lived and worked in Vienna, aside from eight years at the Russian court (1759–67), collaborating with leading choreographers such as Franz Hilverding, Jean-Georges Noverre and Angiolini. In 1772 he became leader of the charitable organization for musicians in Vienna, the Tonkunstler-Soziezat, that he helped to set up a year earlier. He participated frequently in the society’s activities as violinist, composer and conductor and, acting on Baron van Swieten’s suggestion in 1779, arranged Handel’s 'Judas Maccabaeus' for the society’s concerts.

Like Mozart, Starzer participated in Baron van Swieten’s regular Sunday concerts, often singing tenor. Their paths crossed elsewhere too. In March 1781 Starzer invited Mozart to play in a Tonkunstler concert and had to persuade Archbishop Colloredo (who still employed Mozart) to allow him to do so. Starzer’s death in 1787 paved the way for Mozart’s court appointment as composer in the Kammermusik (6 Dec. 1787).

(p.491) etc.

//

So there is clear evidence Handel arrangements of 'Mozart' made in Vienna were those of Starzer and not any by Mozart. 'Judas Maccabeus' is only one example. (Starzer was not the only one involved in this). And, as usual, these were attributed to 'Mozart'.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1004420

Why was all this intrigue in the production of 18th century music ? The answer is simple. There was something real. And what was real was music of what is called the late baroque. Which, for decades involved men discussing the subject freely across the religious and social barriers of Europe. But that was not welcomed. For many reasons. It exposed certain weaknesses amongst the works of the time. So the elites tightened up by producing a string of their own manufactured heroes. Throwing away achievements and ignoring others. Manufacturing in its place the input of many of their own fraternity members. Wholesale. And to achieve it they even wrote their own official version of musical history. That's what we now call the music industry.

But Bach was not Handel. The thing is, Yanni, you have to hear it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LoW_...eature=related

I will post some more details of Starzer later.

Don't bother, I am not interested for another bucketfull of empty words.

Stick to your pile and good luck!

Thanks Yanni,

Starzer is certainly an elusive character.

Josef Starzer - 4 Dances

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiv01Kp7TI4

Also -

http://books.google.com/books?id=6Ye...TARZER&f=false

Autobiography of Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf.

http://books.google.com/books?id=c3w...tarzer&f=false

Wikipedia

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Starzer

There is no doubt that Starzer's career was closely associated with the circle of Mozart. As was that of Dittersdorf and so many others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Don't bother, I am not interested for another bucketfull of empty words.

Stick to your pile and good luck!

---

Music was highly valuable then( as a tool for controlling the masses or royalty) and hence under much stricter control than it is today. With Haydn present in Vienna, the suggestion that Starzer adapted Handel's Messiah instead of him (who is known today to have been inspired by Handel during his first stay in London-oratoria) is but a proof of ignorance.

Let alone Haydn's true identity, diplomatic influence and propable blood relation to Handel/Bach (JSKoch)!

Furthermore, between 1784 and 1815, everybody had something to hide (biographies, letters, diaries etc) and after that everybody had his own national reasons to use such lies as deemed "apropriate" for their interest.

Its not just Grove who is full of "it"!

I hope you two are getting paid for this double-act. It's hugely entertaining,.

Yanni,

Josef Haydn did not visit London until Starzer was already dead. (Starzer died in 1787 and Haydn only visited London twice (1791-2 and again between 1794-5). As for Handel/Bach/JSKoch/Cocchi and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all, I think this is sheer fiction.

No, it's not just 'Grove' which is full of fiction. That is why we must dig very deeply to know how this control of art and culture could ever have arisen, and how. Haydn could hardly hold a pen in his hand when he was in London (both times) and if you examine the facts you will see this is true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Music was highly valuable then( as a tool for

controlling the masses or royalty) and hence under much stricter control than it is today. With Haydn present in Vienna, the suggestion that Starzer adapted Handel's Messiah instead of him (who is known today to have been inspired by Handel during his first stay in London-oratoria) is but a proof of ignorance.

Let alone Haydn's true identity, diplomatic influence and propable blood relation to Handel/Bach (JSKoch)!

Furthermore, between 1784 and 1815, everybody had something to hide (biographies, letters, diaries etc) and after that everybody had his own national reasons to use such lies as deemed "apropriate" for their interest.

Its not just Grove who is full of "it"!

---

The theory that Starzer was behind Handel's Messiah adaptation by Mozart is all yours and all wrong. What "you think" is irrelevant.

Bach genealogists/researchers may be pleased to know that a Theophylact Bache is on record in Philadelphia-New York (where Handel's Messiah was first performed 1770-Burns Coffee shop) among the "rebels". He married Ben Franklin's only daughter Sarah, herself highly praised by french general and composer Chastellux, visiting Philadelphia.

Handel genealogists/researchers may be pleased to know it was not 'Philadelphia/NewYork' 'Burn's Coffee Shop' where Handel's 'Messiah' was first performed in America in 1770. Nor do coffee shops or taverns perform sacred oratorios. (Unless they are 'Handel' oratorios, of course ! ;)

The actual venue for a (partial) performance of 'Messiah' that year (1770) appears to have been New York City's Trinity Church.

('Burn's Coffee House' in New York became (before 1780) known as 'Cape's Tavern'. And in 1783 'Cape's Tavern' in New York held a party for the French Minister. There are, today, in most major cities of the world men and women with the name Bache/Bach and other variants of the same. Indeed, here is the known distribution of families named Bach in the USA in 1920 - from which you will see there were several hundred).

http://www.ancestry.com/facts/bach-family-history.ashx

You are wrong, as usual!

Yanni,

I am always wrong. And you are always right. The difference between us is that I produce evidence but you, always being right, need to produce none. Infallibility has its privileges and its purgatories, yes ?

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

You are wrong, as usual!

---

Yes Yanni. I will tell this to the editors of 3 music publications who have all said Starzer produced the Vienna version of 'Messiah', one of them alive during Mozart's lifetime. But that too will be irrelevant, of course ! And a further publication which even says Mozart did NOT do an arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah'. This too will no doubt be irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

The theory that Starzer was behind Handel's Messiah adaptation by Mozart is all yours and all wrong. What "you think" is irrelevant.

---

http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/new...-the-new-world

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

I am always wrong. And you are always right. The difference between us is that I produce evidence but you, always being right, need to produce none. Infallibility has its privileges and its purgatories, yes ?

Regards

---

When you do decide to grace us with passages, name and dates of sources, do let us know in advance !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yes Yanni. I will tell this to the editors of 3 music publications who have all said Starzer produced the Vienna version of 'Messiah', one of them alive during Mozart's lifetime. But that too will be irrelevant, of course ! And a further publication which even says Mozart did NOT do an arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah'. This too will no doubt be irrelevant.

---

Yes Yanni, and if you decide to post us proofs of Mozart making an arrangement of the 'Messiah' please let us know of them. In Halifax, England, is an 18th century arrangement of another 'Handel' work 'Judas Maccabeus' which has on its title page the name of 'Mozart'. But it is definitely not an arrangement of Mozart. It's yet another example of the same familiar story. Does this in any way convince you we are dealing with false musical attribution. Still another example, that is ?

Which brings me to other 'arrangements' attributed to Mozart - amongst them some by Bach.

In the Köchel Catalogue of Mozart's works listed under K404a are six 3-part Fugues arranged for String Trio. By J.S. Bach (and one by W.F.Bach) Fugues -

Nr.1 Anon.Adagio Fugue= WTC I, Nr.8 D# minor (transposed to d-minor).

Nr.2 Anon.Adagio Fugue= WTC II, Nr.12 in F#major (transposed to F)

Nr.3 Anon.Adagio Fugue =WTC II Nr.14 in F# minor (transposed to g minor).

Nr.4 JS Bach Adagio (BWV527) Fugue from Art of Fugue Contrapunctus 8

Nr.5 JS Bach Largo and Fugue from Organ Sonata BWV 526

Nr.6 Anon.Adagio Fugue=WF Bach Fugue in f-minor (Falk No.31/8)

Mozart's authorship of these Fugue arrangements and of the 4 anonymous Adagios was only first suggested by Wilhelm Rust first in 1860, nearly 70 years after Mozart's death ! It must be remembered these arrangements are all anonymous, not in Mozart's hand, not once refered to in the 18th century and were made in the 19th Century. Nor does anyone mention Mozart's name in connection with them. Let's credit them to Mozart anyway, right ? I mean, Yanni will accept them as genuine Mozart, right ?

In 1903 Ernst Lewicki described the special character of these pieces and thought it would be a great idea publish the pieces even though Mozart's authorship was as fragile as usual. So the Mozart industry complied. Well in to the 20th century Einstein (1936) followed this monkey business with his special line of reasoning to attribute these pieces to Mozart. To Einstein the only other composer besides Mozart who could have written these pieces was Johann Georg Albrechtsberger. ''As able and estimable Albrechtsberger was, a glance at the prelude (quoted in the article) is sufficient to show that no other master than Mozart could have written it". So editor Einstein placed these arrangements in the next version of the Mozart catalogue as K404a. These pieces were next published by Johann Nepomuk David (1938) as Mozart's work. And so it goes on.

'Mozart's' Bach arrangements were not, in fact, by Mozart (but by others of the van Sweiten circle in Vienna and much later wrongly attributed to Mozart ).

Prior to the time when Mozart allegedly made the arrangement of Handel's 'Messiah' the man in charge of musical arrangements at the Vienna meetings of Baron van Sweiten (and responabible for making arrangements) was NOT W.A. Mozart (although that too is of course irrelevant, right Yanni) ? but composer and arranger Joseph Starzer.

'Sonnleithner reported other views from Vienna. Court Capellmeister Eybler stated the full score in the Royal Kaiser archive was "credited to Starzer". Abt. Stadler and Mosel commented "to their knowledge only Starzer had instrumented Handel's Judas Maccabeus". In addition many musical people (including Aloys Fuch) assured him there had never been any such Mozart arrangement. Weigl told Sonnleithner that Mozart (as well as Joseph Starzer) had participated in these concerts, but Mozart had never at any time arranged Judas Maccabeus. Weigl stated the Tonkünster-Widow Society only performed the piece in Starzer's arrangement which was "rather good and effective". He stated his copy was that of Starzer's. Weigl concluded "I can with complete conviction declare that a Mozart arrangement or instrumentation of Judas Maccabeus never had existed".

Welcome to the circular world of Mozart attributions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxzlXodc7_E

Would you care to comment also on my #167 above to allow me then to answer both of your posts?

A single "gulp" would do (although I would prefer, because of your religious charisma, your brief description, snapshot like, of events in New York at the time leading Tuckey to give priority to Burns Coffee-House rather than Trinity Church.)

PS I only see one "Yanni" in this thread but you seem to be conversing with another one!!

Yanni,

You believe an entire oratorio (scored for orchestra, soloists and choir) was staged in a coffee shop.

Sorry, but common sense says differently. And common sense is right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Would you care to comment also on my #167 above to allow me then to answer both of your posts?

A single "gulp" would do (although I would prefer, because of your religious charisma, your brief description, snapshot like, of events in New York at the time leading Tuckey to give priority to Burns Coffee-House rather than Trinity Church.)

PS I only see one "Yanni" in this thread but you seem to be conversing with another one!!

---

As the same Mr Tuckey was managing both events (taking place within a week of each other) whatever was included in "Handel's Messiah" first New York performance at Burns Coffee Hall, was also performed during the second, at Trinity Church.

So says common sense combined with available online evidence, in disagreement alas, with falsities, propaganda, dogmatism, evasion, distortion, shamelessness and...stupidity!

There is much more on the subject, including Theophylacte-Richard Bache's own involvement in the event, but I let it be for now!

Same for your #169, another demonstration of same qualities as above and more:

The discussion was on Mozart's Handel/Bach's Messiah of 1803, NOT Judas Maccabeus.

Unable or unwilling to name your "editors of 3 music publications who have all said Starzer produced the Vienna version of 'Messiah', one of them alive during Mozart's lifetime" you instead introduce a "Halifax Messiah" by Mozart without naming the source to then copy, for the second time, the same text as before by Dennis Pajot on Handel's Juddas Maccabeus and other works by Handel/Bach, NOT including Messiah however!

Why did you fail to provide the source of the Halifax Messiah?

Because it confirms my conclusion that Haydn/Casanova etc was in control of music at the time, Mozart included, as it was first performed at the Palffy Palace, home of Count Johann Baptist Esterházy ie Haydn's playground wherefrom Mozart got it to then "cover" for Haydn in 1803.

Enough with your nonsense!

I'll continue this thread when recovered from this serious fit of deep disgust you have caused me, hoping in the meantime you'll have disappeared!

Dear Yanni,

Can you imagine an elephant sitting on a branch of an apple tree munching apples ? Nor can I. And there's more. I cannot imagine a performance of 'Messiah' in a New York coffee shop in 1770 (or any other at any other time).

Speaking of that very coffee shop in New York, it was the venue for a celebratory visit by the French Ambassador. In 1783. A big year in USA history. You might check that out also.

I mention this because you need to research more on the family of a certain Baron Bagge (Bache) de Ennal, Charles-Ernest (b. Fockenhof, Kurland 1722 - d. Paris 24th March 1791).

'Bagge'. (The same Baron 'Bagge' of Paris music impresario fame). His family date all the way back to 1066 and the papally approved invasion of England in that year. Since Baron Bagge (Bache's) ancestors came to England with William the Conqueror also. Ask the Jacobin supporter Theophylacte-Richard Bache.

But there was no relation to J.S. Bach of Leipzig. One was a scoundrel and the other was the real article.

Anyway, best wishes

Johann Philipp Kirnberger
Sinfonia B-Dur
(1721-1783)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTNJH...eature=related

And here is some music by his teacher -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clCZg...eature=related

And, as usual, best wishes.

Robert

As for 'Mozart's' arrangement of Handel oratorios -

"LOST" MOZART PIECE HEARD FOR FIRST TIME ON TRIO
World Premiere of "Mozart Lost & Found," An Original Special

To Air On Trio on October 7 [sic -- reairing 1/16/05]

New York, N.Y. — September 17, 2002</B> -- On Monday, October 7, popular arts channel TRIO will present the world premiere of Mozart: Lost & Found, an original special which presents the discovery of the long-lost manuscript of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s adaptation of G.F. Handel’s oratorio "Judas Maccabaeus". The documentary traces the discovery of the work and is followed by the full orchestral performance of this manuscript for the first time in over 100 years. This special airs exclusively on popular arts channel TRIO, it was announced by Lauren Zalaznick, President, TRIO.
"We’re proud to present this groundbreaking discovery exclusively on TRIO," said Zalaznick. "We will continue to bring TRIO audiences ‘never-before-seen’ programming across different genres that truly reflect our popular arts programming mission."

Hosted by actor Stephen Fry (Gosford Park), Mozart: Lost & Found begins with a 30-minute documentary covering the fascinating story behind the discovery of the music manuscript. Leeds University music scholar Dr. Rachel Cowgill, who found the manuscript, is among the experts interviewed. The history-making piece, dating back to the 1780’s, is presented in a 90-minute concert performed by the Halifax Choral Society in England and conducted by John Pryce Jones.

(Comment - Hogwash) !

//

2. http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

3. The idea of writing an arrangement of Handel’s Messiah was not Mozart’s. He was in fact commissioned to do this by Baron Gottfried van Swieten. Van Swieten had founded the "Society of Associates" (Gesellschaft der Associierten) in Vienna, an exclusive circle that organised private performances of oratorios during Lent and at Christmas. Because of the reforms introduced by Emperor Joseph II, church music had suffered from drastic changes to the liturgy that had almost brought about its total demise. For this reason, the emphasis shifted to private performances. The Viennese aristocracy was part of van Swieten’s circle and its members also acted as patrons. For quite some time before he worked on the Messiah, Mozart been part of these concerts – he played cembalo under the direction of the court theatre composer, Starzer, [U]who had already arranged Judas Maccabaeus.[/U]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

//

Well, we can't be too harsh, can we ? The Mozart industry loves such stuff !! It's not 'Mozart's' arrangement at all, is it ? Nor was the 'Messiah' arrangement. It was also by the same Starzer. But the name of Mozart is definitely on the title page of Judas Maccabeus at Halifax. Wonder why ? Must have been another case of musical amnesia ! Quick ! Let's auction it fast for more Mozart festivals !!!

:nopity:

You don't get it, do you?

The limits of your imagination is not the subject of this thread, so please stop sacrificing yourself exhibiting them.

It was Handel/Bach's own choice to avoid anglican churches for his Messiah and Tuckey followed.

http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/messiah.shtml

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Can you imagine an elephant sitting on a branch of an apple tree munching apples ? Nor can I. And there's more. I cannot imagine a performance of 'Messiah' in a New York coffee shop in 1770 (or any other at any other time).

---

But I DO get it, Yanni. I DO !

Why not examine the family history of the fraternity recruit Baron Bagge of Paris and his role (and those of others of his clan) in the careers of Haydn and Handel ? You do know of him in Paris, don't you ? Why not check out the relationship of Baron Bagge of Paris with composer/violinist Viotti (that employee of the British Empire) ? Or the faking of 'Haydn's' symphonies in Paris ?

The history of music, so-called, is of course a counterfeit of historical reality. It has been for over 200 published years. Run by fraudsters, fraternity ghouls, and professional liars. And to suppose it is more clean, more honest, than the history of governments, or kings, or bankers, or any other part of human existence is simply naive.

It's not your fault. It's simply that Music deserves better.

Vassili Kalinnikov (1866-1901)
Symphony No. 1
1st Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROtADTN8cuA


Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

You don't get it, do you?

The limits of your imagination is not the subject of this thread, so please stop sacrificing yourself exhibiting them.

It was Handel/Bach's own choice to avoid anglican churches for his Messiah and Tuckey followed.

http://mymerrychristmas.com/2005/messiah.shtml

---

Richard Bache (1737-1811) (Bagge). Known in New York 1770 as ‘Theophylacte Richard Bache’. Had arrived in USA in 1761 and set up a successful business in marine insurance with a colleague in London. Finished that business in 1767 after many financial irregularities. By one of those amazing coincidences he was able to marry Benjamin Franklin’s own daughter, Sarah (1743-1808) and then became head of the American Post Office. This after a period when he had served on many committees in the American War of Independence, including committees of the Board of War.

Knew as much of music as our next door neighbour’s cat. And closely associated with the usual Romanist/Holy Roman Empire fraternities who (with the ‘investment’ of King George) had effectively bankrolled both sides of the American War of Independence - through the ‘King of France‘ - (none other than King George himself and the usual feudalist elites). Baron Bagges in Norfolk (England) and elsewhere date their ancestry back to 1066, as previously said. You may also wish to check out the history of the Bagge family in Sweden and in Holland. One of whom (in the 16th century) was an admiral in Sweden.

Bache in 1770 knew zero of Handel or Bach’s music.

In fact the first published score of Messiah had appeared 3 years earlier, in 1767, (London - Randall and Abell) and a copy came to New York around 1770 with Bache, (this music having undergone major changes before it was first published).

Excerpts of this work were sung in New York in 1770.

As for Richard Bache (who appears to have been born in Yorkshire, England and was related to the Barons Bagge of Norfolk, England) neither he nor they ever showed the slightest interest in Bach’s music. Nor did Baron Bagge of Paris (whose priority was to oversee final production of ‘Haydn’s’ symphonies there prior to them being attributed to Josef Haydn - another story).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjqn...eature=related

//

January 1770: Handel's Messiah performed (first at Burns Coffee Hall) New York

September 28, 1772 From the musical instruments [Musicalischen Instrumenten] which belong to the Community, Brother Utley has got an inventory from Brother Heinrich Stoehr. It would be good if we had a separate closet for the instruments in the Brothers’House. If the instruments have to be repaired, the leader of the Community Chest should know about it.
http://www.amis.org/publications/new.../34.2-2005.pdf

Thomas Paine 1774 -- Leaves England, arriving in New York, then to Philadelphia in the fall; 1774 – Calls on Richard Bache, Ben Franklin's son-in-law ...
http://www.cooperativeindividualism....e-presentation.

July 4, 1780 The musicians should be asked to take good care of the instruments, mainly because there is nobody installed to look after them.It was suggested to collect some money that is necessary for the music because right now we could buy strings [Saiten] for a right good price in the Store. Since Brother Bagge, however, promised to keep as many strings as are necessary for us, we thought that it may be as well for us to defer the collection for awhile..

August 9, 1780: Upon Brother Peter’s request Brother Bagge mentioned that the violin strings [Violin Saiten] which he has right now are too strong for the hot weather, and that if possible he is going to get some that are finer from the Store. We all agreed that he should get as much from the Store as he needs for the present time very urgently, until we have talked about the contribution for the music [account]with the Community Council.
http://www.amis.org/publications/new.../34.2-2005.pdf

Franklin -Bache: Immediately on arriving in Paris, Franklin took up his ... 'A. H. Smyth, "The Life and Writings of Benjamin Franklin" (New York, 1907), .... celebrated and singular baron de Bagge, a violinomaniac whose ..... 1781. Apparently it was in the month of April, 1781, that Frank- ...
mq.oxfordjournals.org/content/IX/2/245.full.pdf

July 4, 1788: First came twelve axe-men dressed in white frocks, with black girdles, Then there were, at intervals, companies of the City Troop, horsemen who bore banners with the dates of the original Independence Day, of the coming of the French allies, of the definitive treaty of peace with Great Britain, and of the completion of the Constitution. Richard Bache, on horseback, attended by a herald, proclaimed the new era.

For Ben Franklin’s fraternity(Nine Sisters) bro “baron Bagge” see http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home...abs1=standard& p205 (and forget about the Oxford Journal and their censors)

For the rest of (this part only of) the Bagge-Bache-Bach story see...

http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=51451&page=9

....to be now corrected: The Salem, New York german speaking brother Bagge, violin chord expert, storekeeper-merchant, Ben Franklin's son in law, is not to be identified anymore as an alias of general Chastellux or Franklin's Paris Baron Bagge (aka Haydn,aka one of the brothers Cocceji-Kochs, Carl Ludwig or Johann Friedrich). Their portraits clearly show two different persons and so do their known life details.

Readers wishing to further expand their Bach-Koch knowledge are advised to research the history of Ronneburg as related to Philadelphia, Calvin, JSBach and "a" Johann Wilhelm Koch, cantor there.

For further expansion on the same subject see "Two works by Poe decoded.Announcement"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get down from that tree Robert, else you risk another accident!

Yanni,

I have the strange belief that nothing at all is accidental.

Every good thing has its counterfeits. Which, when compared, only make both obvious. But what is real speaks for itself. It asserts itself. With authority. It always has. It always will. I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYjqn...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mn1i...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS1Ko...eature=related

///

Listening to JSBach(?), Robert, we are all thanking the Lord, who has protected you from the helicopter accident and, more recently, Starzer's Messiah, Handel/Bach's first "over coffee" performances in Dublin/London, the tree climbing elephant, the american Bache scoundrels and their relatives promoting Handel/Bache later on, all leaving you speechless unfortunately.

Fret not, you are not alone!

This last symptom is shared by many of your british colleagues eversince the publication of "The English Bach awakening: knowledge of J.S. Bach and his music in England" by Michael Kassler" (english version publ 2004) that has clearly affected the industry's servants, many silently asking for Lord's mercy together with you!

"Reach out and you'll all be reached" I say!

Until then, however, let me point out how interesting note 24 of page 6 of this publication I found to be:

It concerns a "JH" who, coming from Vienna, allegedly visited JSBach in Leipzig 1749 and was given some parts of the Goldberg Variations-or so he claimed. The same JH supplied John Hawkins with particulars of JSBach's biography for his History of Music(1776) and, following Hawkin's death in 1789, gave(?) his Variations copies to a Mr Glen(?) who then sold them to a William Reeves who had them for sale in 1893.

I leave it up to you, Robert, to tell the music loving world who, to the best of your recently expanded knowledge, this "Austrian" JH who "introduced" (attempted but failed really) JSBach to british music scholars, sometime between 1750-1776, could have been!

Kassler,you see, was kind enough not to mention the most likely candidate but rejected all others!

Ta-ta.

Yanni,

Thank you for your continual reference to accidents. It was no accident but by design that scumbag, occultist fraternity interests and their lackies over the centuries stole, defrauded, and invented a version of the 'history of music' (so-called) which finally arrived with its pre-selected idols only in the early 19th century - requiring the input of patronising elites of fake Christian and fake Jewish antiquity across much of Europe, Britain and beyond. By using the music of others and totally ignoring 99% of actual musical achievement. Why, the musical fakery of Handel, his managers and publicicists is matched only by the fakery and inventions associated with W.A. Mozart and Josef Haydn. A real 'inside job'. Why not buy out a few more music publishers, broadcasters and textbook writers, and have total control of what is taught and believed on the subject in the name of musicology ? You can then publish it without criticism and generations of the faithful will believe it. Then we can all be 'cultured', 'educated' and 'well informed' at the same time.

As for allegations, these rank very low in my priorities.

You should consider going into the whitewash business. Or at least becoming a sales agent for the Packard Institute for replica 'autographs' of the operas of W.A. Mozart.

http://mozartfacsimiles.org/mf/FigFM.pdf

http://www.harrassowitz.de/music_ser...Facsimile.html

JH, "unknown" for 260 years now and no freaking C.R.A.P*musicologist has dared look in his direction!

BUT

Don't leave the whitewash business on my behalf just yet,Robert, an amateur can never take the place of a professional.

Should your performance in this here forum result to the unthinkable I'll gladly give you a reference letter to your next employers and I'll generously never list all other "accidents" you suffered during our encounter.

I hear Berlin has an awfull lot of washing up to do too.

Ta-Ta!

*Coordinated Research Association's Production

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

Thank you for your continual reference to accidents. It was no accident but by design that scumbag occultist fraternity interests and their lackies over the centuries stole, defrauded, and invented a version of the 'history of music' (so-called) which finally arrived with its pre-selected idols only in the early 19th century - including the input of patronising elites of fake Christian and fake Jewish antiquity. By using the music of others and totally ignoring 99% of actual musical achievement. Why, the musical fakery of Handel, his managers and publicicists is matched only by the fakery and inventions related to the mythical achievements of W.A. Mozart and Josef Haydn. A real 'inside job'. Why not buy out a few more music publishers, broadcasters and textbook writers, and have total control of what is taught and believed on the subject ? You can then publish it without criticism and generations will believe it. Then we can all be 'cultured', 'educated' and 'well informed' at the same time.

As for allegations, these rank very low in my priorities.

You should consider going into the whitewash business. Or at least becoming a sales agent for the Packard Institute for replica 'autographs' of the operas of W.A. Mozart.

http://mozartfacsimiles.org/mf/FigFM.pdf

http://www.harrassowitz.de/music_ser...Facsimile.html

---

You might also consider the red herring business.

Can you tell us when the first public concert of music by J.S. Bach was in Vienna ?

a. During his lifetime ?

b. The century after his lifetime ?


Don't bother answering. The answer to the puzzle of Bach's variations is............ Yanni ! It's inventor.

Here is some music -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6PhU...eature=related

:rolleyes5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Zs2...eature=related

Also see JH at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen (the original of previous composition by unknown composer said to have impressed JH so much that he copied it- or so claims the exact science of musicolgy).

What a rewardingly broad recognition to a life-long resident of Austria!