I just had veal parmesan for dinner. ;) Boy was that good. Mmm, mmm. :D
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I just had veal parmesan for dinner. ;) Boy was that good. Mmm, mmm. :D
Got any leftovers you might share?
I have an honest question that's been bugging me for a while. It might have been adressed by this thread or one of the other threads about vegetarianism before, but I don't feel like scrolling through all that text.
It's just that, we're living things. As such we have to eat other living things in order to absorb their energy and continue living, therefor our life depends on us killing something else that was once alive (blah blah blah, obviously, but bear with me here, I have a point). Animals are living things. Plants are living things, too. Why, then, is killing an animal a crime, but killing a plant isn't? I don't see why eating something that was once alive but was in plant form is any better or somehow more moral then eating something that was once an animal. What's the difference? Plants move like animals, I've seen that myself. They move slowly, but they do move. They respond to touch. I have a lot of examples (eg. they strain for sunlight). Who are we to say that they don't have feeling and emotions, like animals? If they do have emotions and the desire to survive, isn't it "wrong" to kill them for food? And if it's immoral to eat plants, and it's immoral to eat animals, then what the heck CAN we eat without the constant guilt trip?
One part is the capability argument, we have the capability not to eat animals. The second part is that we can be absolutely sure because of neurological similarity that animals feel pain. If it is wrong to cause deliberate pain in humans, then it must be wrong to cause deliberate pain to animals. Given that we can't show that plants feel pain, and we aren't capable of living without them. It seems that the favored option is to not eat animals. I'm not a vegetarian though, that's just the argument usually made for it.
There are other opinions though, like people who think animals have a right to life or not to be exploited. I don't really think those arguments are worth discussing.
It's a question of sentience. Plants don't have nervous systems, though they do react to the environment through hydrostatic pressure etc. (I'm sure some of the science bods on this forum could explain it much better than this). As such they don't feel pain, so they don't suffer. I don't think you're "who are we to say they don't have emotions" doesn't stand up as they lack brains.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
Animals clearly do suffer, and if you're not sure on this point, have a look at a slaughterhouse to see their mental fear, before the real pain starts.
There are other opinions though, like people who think animals have a right to life or not to be exploited. I don't really think those arguments are worth discussing.
Why not Orphanpip? I knew a Nun once who wrote a paper drawing similarities between the oppression of Women and the oppression of animals. It's not so far fetched if you consider how close we are genetically to other mammals. The rights of the voiceless and oppressed and all that.
_______________
My boyfriend is a Hindu. I myself work accordingly to the Hindu Philosophy but do not practice the religion. Let`s go vegetarian. :-)
Srimad Bhagavatam 10.22.35: It is the duty of every living being to perform welfare activities for the benefit of others with his life, wealth, intelligence and words.
I am a pure vegetarian. I don't even have eggs.
Often people asked me, why do you eat plants when you don't eat animals, though they both are living beings.
Now, after reading posts above me, I think I got my answer.
Whatever we eat....lets us plant more trees..avoide using vehicles, plastic...save paper
The Earth needs it!
As far as the eating is concerned....even yoga recommends diet of fresh fruits and veggies ... and I have experienced the difference.....on the other hand .... if evryone eats veg ...we do not have enough food on this earth.... considering the reducing no of farmers and fertile farmlands
Honestly, considering that the physiognomic, or even broader - biological, disparity between humans and animals (particularly mammals) is far less than that between humans and plants, one might be justified in countering such a question by asking why it’s a-ok, morally speaking, to feast on cow meat for gastronomic satisfaction but not that of, say, a fellow human being, who we would have no reason to presume would taste at all inferior. Keep in mind, it’s a question of morals, not pragmatics (morality, imo, should not hang on those choices which happen to be most convenient); obviously society would be in an uproar if some people just up and decided that cannibalism was the way to go. But what if it was done systematically, and to a widely marginalized ethnic/racial group who, from our privileged perspective, doesn’t really have much of a life worth living anyway, and, moreover, fails to contribute much to the global community, like all those starving Africans (who would, of course, be duly fattened up before facing the chopping block)? Why do so very many people turn up their noses in (alleged) disgust at such an idea, but not that of factory farming and its products?Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf
And, by the by, I don’t buy the “it’s natural” argument; if every proponent of said argument was really so in-tune with the whims of nature then I don’t suppose they’d be inclined to view, for example, burping/farting/nose-picking ,etc, in public as flagrant acts of classless crudity and would, it is logical to assume, happily add their own bodily contribution to the campy cacophony themselves.
Just some food for thought, so to speak. ;)
I think you have to argue your points in other terms than the Hindu Texts you are quoting. How can posters understand your position unless they are versed in your beliefs themselves, and is this valid anyway to non-Hindus?Quote:
Originally Posted by Radha Krsna
I have ever thought like that when I was child. But, when I grow up I know that plans can't feel pain because they don't have stimulus receiver like we and animals have...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhar
In Vedic sastra mentioned:
Tri Premana (three kinds of living skills):
1. Plants have only bayu (tenaga)
2. Animals have only bayu and sabda (power and voice)
3. Humans have bayu, sabda and idep (power, voice and mind)
Because plants do not have voice, they must be can't feel pain...
I'm sorry, this thread originally in Religious Texts so I quote Veda text.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
So, if we shoot up the animals we eat with morphine before slaughter, that makes it all better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Radha Krsna
Is consumption of morphine was good for your body?Quote:
Originally Posted by skib
Harvey Diamond: Enter an apple, a rabbit and a baby into the bassinet. If the baby is eating the rabbit, then playing with the apple, then I'll buy you a new car ...
http://www.ecorazzi.com/wp-content/u...8/03/tobey.jpg
Daftar Seleb Vegetarian:
Pamela Anderson
Natalie Portman
Bryan Adams
Tobey Maguire
Kate Winslet
Naomi Watts
Paul McCartney
Richard Gere
Orlando Bloom
Chris Martin (vokalis Coldplay)
Carrie Underwood (jawara American Idol 4)
David Duchovny
Joaquin Phoenix
Prince
Andre 3000
Josh Hartnett
Reese Witherspoon
Joss Stone
Avril Lavigne
Alicia Silverstone
Shania Twain
Faye Wong
Maggie Q
Amitabh Bachan
Kareena Kapoor
Kristen Bell
Barbie Hsu
Jarah Mariano
Jenna Jameson
Nadya Hutagalung
Sophia Latjuba
Dewi Lestari
Titiek Puspa
Ria Warna
Ray Sahetapy
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http://keetsa.com/blog/wp-content/up.../06/celebs.jpg
http://pabuc.files.wordpress.com/200...b__430x305.jpg
Christian Bale in Batman Begins
Vegetarian and Vegan Elite of the World
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0002.jpg
Albert Einstein
German theoretical physicist; 1921 Nobel Laureate in Physics
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0012.jpg
Aung San Suu Kyi
Myanmar (Burma) nonviolent pro-democracy activist; 1991 Nobel Laureate in Peace
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0015.jpg
Sir Isaac Newton
British physicist, mathematician, astronomer, alchemist, inventor, and natural philosopher; father of physics
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0017.jpg
Leonardo Da Vinci
Italian Renaissance polymath: architect, anatomist, sculptor, engineer, inventor, geometer, musician, and painter
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Benjamin Franklin
American author, journalist, scientist, inventor and statesman
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Thomas Edison
American inventor and businessman
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Nikola Tesla
Serbian-American inventor, physicist, mechanical engineer and electrical engineer
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0027.jpg
Steve Jobs
American founder and CEO of Apple Computer
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Carl Lewis
American track & field star, nine-time Olympic champion
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0041.jpg
Plato
Greek saint and philosopher
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0042.jpg
Pythagoras
Greek mathematician and philosopher
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0044.jpg
Socrates
Greek saint and philosopher
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Christian Bale
British actor, star of the hit movie "Batman Begins"
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0052.jpg
Dustin Hoffman
American actor, two-time Oscar winner; Emmy and Golden Globe Award winner
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Leo Tolstoy
Russian novelist, pacifist, moral thinker
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0072.jpg
Manmohan Singh
The 14th and current Prime Minister of India, known as India's most respected politician
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0075.jpg
Mahatma Gandhi
Indian political leader and humanitarian
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0079.jpg
Confucius
Chinese saint and philosopher
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/v...mages/0084.jpg
Zoroaster
Iranian founder of Zoroastrianism
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Ashley Judd
American actress
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Brigitte Bardot
French actress
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Demi Moore
American actress
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Steven Seagal
American actor
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Brooke Shields
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Michael Jackson
American pop singer and songwriter; has won more music awards than any other artists
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Sinead O'Connor
Irish singer
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Pink
American singer
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Justin Timberlake
American pop singer
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Tina Turner
American pop star
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Vanessa Williams
American pop singer
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Christy Turlington
American supermodel
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Martin Luther
German theologian, Augustinian monk and ecclesiastical reformer
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LaToya Jackson
American pop singer, sister of Michael Jackson
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Des'ree
British pop singer
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Gillian Anderson
American actress
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Willem Dafoe
American actor, playing as Green Goblin in Spiderman 1
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Muhammad Al-Ghazali
Iranian Islamic scholar and Sufi saint
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Muhammad Rahiim Bawa Muhaiyadeen
Sri Lankan Islamic author and Sufi saint
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Princess Diana
British Princess of Wales and animal rights advocate
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Samuel L. Jackson
American actor, Academy Award nominee
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Chengyen
Chinese Buddhist master and founder of Tzu Chi Foundation
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Ashoka the Great
Indian emperor of the Maurya Empire, 273-232 BC
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Jacky Cheung
Hong Kong singer
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Harun Kolcak
Turkish singer
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Brooke Johnston
Miss United Kingdom Universe 2005
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Kabir
Muslim Master
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Bulleh Shah
Muslim Sufi Saint
Sumber:
http://al.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/vg-vip
http://swaramuslim.com/images/upload...h/Kartini5.jpg
R.A. Kartini:
“Vegetarian adalah Doa Tanpa Kata ke Hadirat Yang Mahatinggi”
"Aku adalah anak Buddha, dan sebutan itu saja sudah cukup jadi alasan bagiku untuk tidak makan daging.”
@Radha Krshna
Would like to know your opnion on what I already posted earlier:
Whatever we eat....lets us plant more trees..avoide using vehicles, plastic...save paper
The Earth needs it!
As far as the eating is concerned....even yoga recommends diet of fresh fruits and veggies ... and I have experienced the difference.....on the other hand .... if evryone eats veg ...we do not have enough food on this earth.... considering the reducing no of farmers and fertile farmlands
Hey Mrig, I have a tiny back and front yard and 2 yrs ago when we built our 13square unit, the council made us plant 150 trees (most indiginous plants) Out of all them, 8 died.
That's not bad considering. However things are so strict here that if we didn't plant our trees, we were told we couldn't move in. A little tough I thought, but very good for the Earth. Not only that, they visited one year later to check the plants were still there. They didn't overlook the 8 plants that had died. Instead they suggested we replant them with any plant of our choice, but they must be replaced regardless. Which suited me, as I am a rose lover and will plant some thornless roses.
I also have a tiny green house. (Will be planting lettuce plants this week) Love my salads.
So I believe I am doing my little bit for the Earth.:wave:
HEy, Mary .....that's great infact I am delighted to hear that! Keep up the good work!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrig
I just wanted to introduce the love for all living creatures, especially animals because we and they both could feel the pain.
I do appreciate your intention. And you will be glad to know that I am a complete veg even no eggs!
:)
Enter an apple, a rabbit and a baby into the bassinet. If the baby is eating the rabbit, then playing with the apple, then I'll buy you a new car ...
I'm not sure what that's supposed to suggest - but try it with a baby, some chicken nuggets and a parsnip. I suspect under those circumstances you wouldn't offer a car if the kid decided to eat the nuggets.
Quite.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Even the most carniverous of us don't chow down on fluffy things that are still wriggling. I mean, I like my steak rare, but there are limits...:lol:
[QUOTE=Radha Krsna;815034]Is consumption of morphine was good for your body?
[/center][/QUOTE
Well, it is one of the most highly utilized painkillers in the (western) medical profession, so I would take that as an indication that it isn't TOO terribly awful. I mean, they inject it directly into your bloodstream, so why would ingesting be any worse? There may be some chemical reactions I am overlooking, but it can't be any worse than the rest of the crap we put in our bodies like pesticides used to protect our fruits and veggies.
[B]I'm sorry, this thread originally in Religious Texts so I quote Veda text.[/B][/QUOTE]
I see Rhada. No worries. It's certainly prompted lots of posts!
Only the language of literature.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
...Huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Radha Krsna
I'm sorry, but you initially attributed that quotation to Harvey Diamond - that really does not qualify it as the 'language of literature.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Radha Krsna
Oh, I thought that by 'language of literature' he meant that the proposition was a rhetorical device. (Though not a very robust one, which was what I was trying to demonstrate.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
But maybe you're right - he means he's quoting a book. Not that I'd heard of Harvey Diamond - so I looked up his website which, perhaps unsurprisingly, extols Mr Diamond's virtues as a guru of health and beneficial diet.
Mr Diamond makes great play of his common touch. "I don't write for doctors and scientists. I write for folks. You won't need a dictionary by your side in order to understand what you read."
There are those of us who would interpret this as, "I have no real authority or qualifications, but I'm a pretty convincing salesman and I have very even teeth."
At the bottom of the page, it says this:
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to treat, cure or prevent any disease. The information presented on this site is for educational purposes only; this information is not meant to be a substitute for the advice from your own physician or other healthcare provider.
..which is a bit of a giveaway really, isn't it?
Elucidate them on the matter and see if the little lieblings don’t reconsider – “Remember all those cute little chickens we fed at the zoo today? Well, now they’re feeding you!” :brow:Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame X
I think the point of the original proposition was that the baby - uninformed and innocent - would eat the apple, which would somehow demonstrate the 'natural' state of affairs, unclouded by the learned behaviours of blah-de-blah and so on and so forth.
If we're to accept that as the proof of something, then my uninformed baby would demonstrate the natural human preference for chicken nuggets over raw parsnip.
As it happens, following a visit to a farm, I did explain to my kids that the piglets they'd seen were destined to become sausages. The seven-year-old immediately demanded to become vegetarian, which we allowed. She got bored with it in about three days. The five-year-old was utterly unconcerned, and demanded a bacon sandwich as soon as she got home.
Oh, I think we can agree that we aren’t born into this world with pure hearts and princely purpose. Meantime, I’m willing to bet most people’d be pretty upset about seeing, say, their neighbour beating his dog, or some farmer kicking the crap outta his cow on the side of the road, heck, some of these nice folk would probably even take steps to try and get these aggressive gentlemen to cease and desist from all such appalling behaviour, feel fairly good about themselves for ‘saving’ the day, tell all their friends about it…and then go home to their nice steak dinners as if it were the most consistent thing in all the world. I certainly don’t presume that not eating meat makes me some sort of angel, not by any means, but, go ahead and call me naďve (and, indeed, perhaps I am :nod:), this type of moral capriciousness I tend to observe in the behaviour of others is nonetheless quite baffling to behold.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
But if uninformed baby's never been introdused to chicken nuggets before most likely the result for baby's apetite would be "nuggets = raw parsnip". :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I wish I was never been introduced to meat meals, or was allergic to it. I'm not doing any better than your seven year old while trying to take animal dishes out of my diet. But I still don't dare try this with my 3 year old child. she doesn't like beef, i blend it into her soup. :brickwall
These kind of threads are so banal... posting animal pictures..
however, It was Thomas Hardy who made me think over my eating. I wonder how much Hardy himself was enjoying pork chops. :nod:
I couldn't even finish the chapter but it was enough to get one more point (one less eater) for cows and chicken; my record is half clean; I've never eaten any other animals, including sea food :nod:
"Jude the Obscure" Chapter 10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The time arrived for killing the pig which Jude and his wife had
fattened in their sty during the autumn months, and the butchering
was timed to take place as soon as it was light in the morning, so
that Jude might get to Alfredston without losing more than a quarter
of a day.
The night had seemed strangely silent. Jude looked out of the window
long before dawn, and perceived that the ground was covered with
snow--snow rather deep for the season, it seemed, a few flakes still
falling.
"I'm afraid the pig-killer won't be able to come," he said to
Arabella.
"Oh, he'll come. You must get up and make the water hot, if you want
Challow to scald him. Though I like singeing best."
"I'll get up," said Jude. "I like the way of my own county."
He went downstairs, lit the fire under the copper, and began feeding
it with bean-stalks, all the time without a candle, the blaze
flinging a cheerful shine into the room; though for him the sense of
cheerfulness was lessened by thoughts on the reason of that blaze--to
heat water to scald the bristles from the body of an animal that as
yet lived, and whose voice could be continually heard from a corner
of the garden. At half-past six, the time of appointment with the
butcher, the water boiled, and Jude's wife came downstairs.
"Is Challow come?" she asked.
"No."
They waited, and it grew lighter, with the dreary light of a snowy
dawn. She went out, gazed along the road, and returning said, "He's
not coming. Drunk last night, I expect. The snow is not enough to
hinder him, surely!"
"Then we must put it off. It is only the water boiled for nothing.
The snow may be deep in the valley."
"Can't be put off. There's no more victuals for the pig. He ate the
last mixing o' barleymeal yesterday morning."
"Yesterday morning? What has he lived on since?"
"Nothing."
"What--he has been starving?"
"Yes. We always do it the last day or two, to save bother with the
innerds. What ignorance, not to know that!"
"That accounts for his crying so. Poor creature!"
"Well--you must do the sticking--there's no help for it. I'll show
you how. Or I'll do it myself--I think I could. Though as it is
such a big pig I had rather Challow had done it. However, his basket
o' knives and things have been already sent on here, and we can use
'em."
"Of course you shan't do it," said Jude. "I'll do it, since it must
be done."
He went out to the sty, shovelled away the snow for the space of a
couple of yards or more, and placed the stool in front, with the
knives and ropes at hand. A robin peered down at the preparations
from the nearest tree, and, not liking the sinister look of the
scene, flew away, though hungry. By this time Arabella had joined
her husband, and Jude, rope in hand, got into the sty, and noosed the
affrighted animal, who, beginning with a squeak of surprise, rose to
repeated cries of rage. Arabella opened the sty-door, and together
they hoisted the victim on to the stool, legs upward, and while Jude
held him Arabella bound him down, looping the cord over his legs to
keep him from struggling.
The animal's note changed its quality. It was not now rage, but the
cry of despair; long-drawn, slow and hopeless.
"Upon my soul I would sooner have gone without the pig than have had
this to do!" said Jude. "A creature I have fed with my own hands."
"Don't be such a tender-hearted fool! There's the sticking-knife--
the one with the point. Now whatever you do, don't stick un too
deep."
"I'll stick him effectually, so as to make short work of it. That's
the chief thing."
"You must not!" she cried. "The meat must be well bled, and to do
that he must die slow. We shall lose a shilling a score if the meat
is red and bloody! Just touch the vein, that's all. I was brought
up to it, and I know. Every good butcher keeps un bleeding long.
He ought to be eight or ten minutes dying, at least."
"He shall not be half a minute if I can help it, however the meat may
look," said Jude determinedly. Scraping the bristles from the pig's
upturned throat, as he had seen the butchers do, he slit the fat;
then plunged in the knife with all his might.
"'Od damn it all!" she cried, "that ever I should say it! You've
over-stuck un! And I telling you all the time--"
"Do be quiet, Arabella, and have a little pity on the creature!"
"Hold up the pail to catch the blood, and don't talk!"
However unworkmanlike the deed, it had been mercifully done. The
blood flowed out in a torrent instead of in the trickling stream she
had desired. The dying animal's cry assumed its third and final
tone, the shriek of agony; his glazing eyes riveting themselves on
Arabella with the eloquently keen reproach of a creature recognizing
at last the treachery of those who had seemed his only friends
"However unworkmanlike the deed, it had been mercifully done. The
blood flowed out in a torrent instead of in the trickling stream she
had desired. The dying animal's cry assumed its third and final
tone, the shriek of agony; his glazing eyes riveting themselves on
Arabella with the eloquently keen reproach of a creature recognizing
at last the treachery of those who had seemed his only friends.
"Make un stop that!" said Arabella. "Such a noise will bring
somebody or other up here, and I don't want people to know we are
doing it ourselves." Picking up the knife from the ground whereon
Jude had flung it, she slipped it into the gash, and slit the
windpipe. The pig was instantly silent, his dying breath coming
through the hole.
"That's better," she said.
"It is a hateful business!" said he.
"Pigs must be killed."
The animal heaved in a final convulsion, and, despite the rope,
kicked out with all his last strength. A tablespoonful of black
clot came forth, the trickling of red blood having ceased for some
seconds.
"That's it; now he'll go," said she. "Artful creatures--they always
keep back a drop like that as long as they can!"
The last plunge had come so unexpectedly as to make Jude stagger, and
in recovering himself he kicked over the vessel in which the blood
had been caught.
"There!" she cried, thoroughly in a passion. "Now I can't make any
blackpot. There's a waste, all through you!"
Jude put the pail upright, but only about a third of the whole
steaming liquid was left in it, the main part being splashed over
the snow, and forming a dismal, sordid, ugly spectacle--to those who
saw it as other than an ordinary obtaining of meat. The lips and
nostrils of the animal turned livid, then white, and the muscles of
his limbs relaxed.
"Thank God!" Jude said. "He's dead."
"What's God got to do with such a messy job as a pig-killing, I
should like to know!" she said scornfully. "Poor folks must live."
"I know, I know," said he. "I don't scold you."
Suddenly they became aware of a voice at hand.
"Well done, young married volk! I couldn't have carried it out much
better myself, cuss me if I could!" The voice, which was husky,
came from the garden-gate, and looking up from the scene of slaughter
they saw the burly form of Mr. Challow leaning over the gate,
critically surveying their performance.
"'Tis well for 'ee to stand there and glane!" said Arabella. "Owing
to your being late the meat is blooded and half spoiled! 'Twon't
fetch so much by a shilling a score!"
Challow expressed his contrition. "You should have waited a bit"
he said, shaking his head, "and not have done this--in the delicate
state, too, that you be in at present, ma'am. 'Tis risking yourself
too much."
"You needn't be concerned about that," said Arabella, laughing.
Jude too laughed, but there was a strong flavour of bitterness in
his amusement.
Challow made up for his neglect of the killing by zeal in the
scalding and scraping. Jude felt dissatisfied with himself as a man
at what he had done, though aware of his lack of common sense, and
that the deed would have amounted to the same thing if carried out by
deputy. The white snow, stained with the blood of his fellow-mortal,
wore an illogical look to him as a lover of justice, not to say a
Christian; but he could not see how the matter was to be mended. No
doubt he was, as his wife had called him, a tender-hearted fool.
Oh, I agree. I'm against neighbours beating dogs - and I'm not even very fond of dogs. On the other hand, I have no qualms about eating beef. Would I be prepared to kill the cow myself? Probably not. But I don't have to. I pay someone else to do it and that's fine by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame X
In exactly the same way, I'm not prepared to treat sewage, but I'm glad someone does. I have no idea how my car works, but I know a man who'll fix it when it goes wrong. I am not about to tackle burglars and drug dealers, but I'm very grateful that my brother and my dad wanted to become policemen. And nothing on God's earth would persuade me to go to the opera, but I think it's important to subsidise the arts out of government funds to which I contribute.
It's not possible to live life under the theoretical threat of 'what if you had to do it yourself?' We live in a society in which tasks are divided up and handed out to specialists. If I gave up meat on the basis that I couldn't bring myself to kill a cow, I'd have to give up wine too, on the basis that I'm not about to tread grapes, and I'd have to give up driving, on the basis that I'm not prepared to drill for my own petroleum.
That's not a strong argument Mark. I don't think the idea is that someone would be asking you to make a career at it, that sort of vegetarian argument asks only IF you would even once do it, hypothetically. Nothing about careers, whether you would be skilled at it, or it being an actual necessary ticket to receiving the service of others doing it. Just, would you be fine with it, morally, after having done it.
For me, it is good food for thought, but I think there are hypothetical (survival-type) situations in which a lot of vegetarians would kill and animal and eat it. And I can't say I see any compelling case against those who hunt or raise animals to eat, or even "sportsmen" who manage to clean and consume what they kill, etc.
I think the hypothetical that I have in mind is: Could I hang out in a factory farm and/or modern slaughterhouse and eat what I had witnessed. And I don't doubt that, through the magic of forgetting (and paychecks) or whatever, some people could, and in fact do.
I think it's a very strong argument, otherwise I wouldn't have made it.Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
But - okay - no. I wouldn't slaughter a cow.
Somehow, even having admitted that, I still don't feel persuaded not to eat meat.
However, what if I'd said I would? Would that entitle me to eat meat?
Yes, I think it would. (Although I am not talking about "entitlement," I'm just saying you'll have made a solid and consistent case, instead of simply turning a blind eye out of convenience).
I am sorry if it seemed I was criticizing your argument-making ability in general (I have seen enough of your posts not to do that, and I'll try to be more indirect in my disagreement in the future), I just thought that, in this case, there was no way to really parallel opera-singing, cleaning waste, and killing (in particular profit-driven slaughter). Certainly, cleaning and entertaining are morally different than the infliction of suffering for profit, and I think this is what the vegetarian argument is getting at. Whether the suffering is worth it for the level of meat-availability that it provides is, I think, something that a person that has actually witnessed/participated in it (or would be willing to, hypothetically) can reasonably claim to have considered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Okay, bring me the stun-gun and the machete. I'll kill a fricking cow. It'll be worth it just to trot out the experience every time a vegetarian tries to trap me in the 'would you wield the knife' corner.
But I'll be killing the cow simply to please vegetarians - which is an interesting unintended consequence. For myself, I have no trouble turning convenient blind eyes.
Albert Levi in the book The Meat Handbook: More than 70 kinds of livestock diseases known, can be transmitted to humans.
In the UK, every year there are 40 million chickens piece that die from the disease ...
Journal of the American Medical Association: 97% from a variety of heart disease, there are actually 90% of them can be prevented through vegetarian diet.
Senator George McGovern said: In America, of the 10 leading causes of death, there are 6 main causes associated with eating meat.
Here's another interesting statistic: 100% of vegetarians die. Unless you're proposing that vegetarianism is a route to immortality?Quote:
Originally Posted by Radha Krsna
I'll take my chances. Just out of curiosity, what are the six out of ten causes of death?