Mrs Dalloway (and anything from V. Woolf) I think.
However, Lighthouse keeping by Winterson deserves to be mentioned.
Oh...Anything from Jane Austen, she's an amazing writer.
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Mrs Dalloway (and anything from V. Woolf) I think.
However, Lighthouse keeping by Winterson deserves to be mentioned.
Oh...Anything from Jane Austen, she's an amazing writer.
It's not so much a question of favourite novels but of novels that say something about British culture (though perhaps it would be more accurate to say English).Quote:
Originally Posted by Seasider
After all, he ordered his shirts from London.
Or any of the Ian Fleming James Bond novels.
I would have to go with Le Morte d'Arthur. I can think of nothing more English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilde woman
"Oliver Twist" maybe? Other candidates: "Gulliver's Travels", "Pride and Prejudice", "Wuthering Heights", "Tess of the d'Urbervilles", "Great Expectations", "Of Human Bondage"...
Is that meant to be a good novel? I heard that the novel was quite minor compared to Dickens' other stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by wordeater
I prefer "A Tale of two Cities" myself, but a novel about the French Revolution can hardly be called typically British. That's why I also suggested "Great Expectations".Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
Still, I do like "Oliver Twist" as well because of the way the dark parts of London are portrayed, and because the innocent and pure Oliver is surrounded by some of the most gruesome literary characters.
I'm reading Hard Times at the moment. It's pretty good actually.
It's worth reading I think, full of social commentary and relatively short, too. What I didn't like about it is what I don't like about Dickens in general: his morally perfect characters, of which there are a lot. Perfect Oliver who swoons at the thought of evil-doing, perfect Rose, perfect, benevolent Mr Brownlow and their condescending attempt to 'save' the fallen Nancy. The flawed characters: Sikes, Fagin, Nancy, Dodger, Mr Bumble etc, are far more interesting and far more entertaining. The fate of the Artful Dodger was tragic.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
This has probably already been mentioned but I think Vanity Fair would be a good candidate for Great British Novel. It's an epic, satirical, all-encompassing slice of early 19th century English life. It looks at poverty, gender, social mobility, the aristocracy, the Napoleonic war. It's also an excellent read.
Vanity Fair is a good choice :)
I believe no British novel could parallel The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Moby Dick or The Great Gatsby as an iconic book in the popular culture and literary tradition of its nation. Charles Dickens and Jane Austen composed several classics which are even today immensely popular and widely influent, but even their most famous works such as David Copperfield and Pride and Prejudice aren’t as effective in constituting a national myth as any of the three books previously cited, even though the complete works of Dickens may be able to surpass any competitor to the title of Great American Novel in that respect. Middlemarch, Tom Jones, Clarissa, Tristram Shandy and Vanity Fair are narratives of great scope in their own particular ways, but none of them is equal to Austen’s and Dickens’ works in that sense.
Perhaps the concept of a nation’s great novel is more intrinsically related to a cultural inclination of the American reading community than to a general literary pattern. Since the US began as an expansive country, but had no consistent literary tradition before the nineteenth century, the “great novel” may have been an American substitute to the national epic. As there is a certain preoccupation in the US about defining a national identity and creating popular icons, other works have been suggested in their respective periods as possible candidates to this title probably because of this.
What is the definition of the Great American Novel? I associate the term with American literature from around 1920 to 1970, but there is more to it than that, I suppose. If I knew the criteria of the Great American Novel, I would be better able to suggest a British equivalent.
Got to be Shakespeare related.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
I won't pretend to be all that familiar with British literature, but I'm surprised that there's been such little reference to George Orwell, specifically, 1984. If we define a great -insert country- novel at something that is reflective of the culture at the time of writing and still holds influence over the culture of today, then 1984 is certainly a good place to start. (Brave New World too, but I see someone's already mentioned that) Orwell took what he saw as issues in his time... Nationalism, class stratification, etc. and translated them into a book (1984 is allegedly a cultural translation of We by Yevgeny Zamyatin) that would have a near-global influence both in Britain and around the world. It's an important work I think, and presumably reflects the direction which Orwell thought British society would take in the centuries to come.
The Great English novel should say something about English society and culture, in the way I promessi sposi does about Italy or the Great American novels do about America.
Jane Austen is a wonderful writer but she is far, far too limited in her canvas for consideration.
No doubt some would say Middlemarch, but my choice would be Bleak House - a great vivid range against a passionate condemnation of the British legal (and class) system.
The Great Scots novel will be something different - early Sir Walter Scott, probably - Old Mortality?
The Great American Novel is a novel written by an American that contains themes and concerns that are particularly American. Whilst it may speak to people of other cultures, it profoundly speaks to Americans. Many novels have had the term applied to them, such as Moby Dick, The Great Gatsby, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by kev67
Why would Moby Dick be a Great American Novel? Most of the action takes place at sea, while whaling was not a uniquely American activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
The epic scope I guess. Wiki explains a bit:Quote:
Originally Posted by kev67
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moby_dick
ruggerlad, I think you've got an interesting point here because the difficulty in establishing a great British novel, where the criteria is that it reflects in some way the national 'identity' is that the 'British' identity doesn't really exist. You might suggest a great 'English' novel or a great 'Scottish' novel or a great 'Welsh' novel, but what constitutes a 'British' novel? Even under the title of 'English' novel, you would have quite a dispirate range as the 'identity' of someone in the North of England can be quite different to someone in the South or Cornwall, to someone who is British-Asian etc, etc. In the absence of this cohesive identity (or even an illusion of such) how can a novel reflect it in its themes and concerns?Quote:
Originally Posted by ruggerlad
With this in mind, does a novel like Cloud Atlas which is a series of quite different stories, loosely interconnected, more accurately reflect the 'British' identity?
It's a fun question to ask and discuss here.
I wonder about the term "The Great American Novel". I don't know where it was first used, but I get the feeling that it is a bit defensive, as though wanting to say "we can do just as well".
I think part of it is because America is comparatively young to some of the European countries. The Great American Novel is America asserting itself, trying to form a literary identity separate from European influences.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruggerlad
I also agree about the impossibility of being able to represent every country in Britain in one book. So maybe The Great English Novel would be easiest. However, I wanted to leave it open so people could discuss other GB countries as well (and what about Cornwall?).
The Great Cornish Novel is of course Rebecca.
I'm not convinced that the cultural boundaries between the bits of the UK are that firm. I don't feel I'm reading a foreign novel when I'm reading Scott (which I don't do that often) but some Scots would put that down to English cultural imperialism on my part.
What Ho, Jeeves!
How Green was my valley. For Wales
How Green was my Valet. For the upper class Welsh.
I've got Richard Usborne's Plum Sauce beside me and can confirm there is no such title. I take it you meant Right Ho! Jeeves.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I saw it in translation when on holiday in Italy. It was irresistible to buy Perfetto! Jeeves.
The Remains of the Day
I think you mean Plum Source.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruggerlad
...fair call though.
And, actually, I wish I'd gone with my first thought which was Leave it to Psmith.
If you mean what is the greatest novel written by a Brtish novelist, I'd say perhaps Tom Jones, Middlemarch, Great Expectations, Women in Love, Sons and Lovers, To The Lighthouse...difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
But if you mean is there a British novel which has got the essence of Britain in the way that Huck Finn or the Great Gatsby have nailed the USA, I'm not sure there is one. It's an interesting question. Some would say PG Wodehouse, but he wrote about the upper classes. The majority of Brits (English, Scottish or Welsh) have more in common with the kinds of people you find in Orwell's 'Road to Wigan Pier' or Down and Out than Wodehouse or Waugh.
There isn't a British 'War and Peace' with characters from all social classes and all parts of Britain (private soldiers from the backstreets of Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, Cardiff etc, Scottish aristocrats and suburban Londoners and so on).
However, I would say that PG Wodehouse expresses and very British humour. If you want to know why the British never fell for Fascism or Communism in the way many other Europeans did, read Wodehouse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WICKES
Wodehouse and the Nazis! Let's not go there.
Why not? Wodehouse was interned after being captured by German troops in France. Being fully aware that there were a great many people who were afraid for his safety, he made a broadcast, at the Germans' behest , that he wasn't being ill-treated in any way. Of course the Germans knew he was a famous author and used it as a propaganda exercise, but what else could he do but tell the truth?Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
According to his MI5 file, recently released, he was in the pay of the Nazis and would've stood trial for treason had he returned to England.
However I agree with WICKES, he conveyed that essence of English humour that makes us such poor material for dictatorships.
In fact if you were looking for the Great British Character, rather than Novel, a mixture of Jeeves and Bertie would do.
A more unlikely spy it would be difficult to find. I attach as much importance to that file as I do to the British intelligence report of WMDs in Iraq.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
In one of his pre-war novels he lampoons Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists, just as he did to communism in another when one of his silly-*** young gadabouts falls for the daughter of one of the 'Heralds of the Red Dawn' who's an orator at Speakers Corner in London's Hyde Park.
On balance, I think I agree with you.
It was the irony of WICKES' post - that he used Wodehouse to make his point - when the man himself became embroiled with the nazis, that struck me.
The facts surrounding Wodehouse and the Nazis are almost as farcical as one of his own stories. When his internment was over and he was free to go, he couldn't get out of Germany as it was still at war. So he put up at the Adlon, the best hotel in Berlin. He could easily afford it as he was a very wealthy man.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
This led some over zealous MI5 personnel to assume that he was being paid by the Germans, but he was using his own money that could only be transferred to him through German channels because of the war.
Even after the war, his life continued to be like something from one of his books if this extract from his Wickipedia entry is anything to go by:
Wodehouse's characters, however, were not always popular with the establishment, notably the foppish foolishness of Bertie Wooster. Papers released by the Public Record Office have disclosed that when Wodehouse was recommended in 1967 for the Order of the Companions of Honour, Sir Patrick Dean, the British ambassador in Washington, argued that it "would also give currency to a Bertie Wooster image of the British character which we are doing our best to eradicate."
Much as it pains me to agree with Emil, I agree with Emil.
Another candidate: London Belongs to Me
Wodehouse was no Nazi. He was completely uninterested in politics and bewildered at all the fuss. Everyone who knew him thought him extraordinarily unwordly. He was a product of a more innocent age- an Edwardian stranded in a world of screeching dictators. The world that shaped Wodehouse might have been insular, smug, complacent and so on, but it was not a place that fostered extremist thinking. It was a place that took peace, liberal democracy and scientific progress for granted. Nazism was so alien to Wodehouse that I don't think he was able to really understand it. I very much doubt he took it (or communism) seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
My point was that when the Fascists marched in some countries there were arguments and street battles. When they marched in Britain, people laughed (alright, a generalisation, but there is a lot of truth to it)
One of the things that has long puzzled me is how Wodehouse, being from an ultra English gentleman's background, could have worked in American show business during it's most raucous period, that of the 1920s. Writing songs for shows among cigar-chomping producers and the denizens of Tin Pan Alley seemed to have left him completely unchanged whereas one might have thought 'unhinged' would have been the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by WICKES
He learned at Dulwich College - as any bright kid will learn at an English public school - that you work with the system and thrive, or you oppose the system and strive, or you ignore the system and do what you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Miller
Wodehouse went for the last of the three, his entire life - though his diaries suggest that he thought he was doing the first of the three.
There's an argument that any artistically and commercially successful writer owes his success to failing to resolve those two approaches.
Well, the English are in good company. What's the great French novel, in the above sense? Or German? Italian? Spanish? There isn't one. The notion seems peculiarly american, and even there, there is little consensus. Or maybe the notion is fundamentally only possible in a demoratic culture, which really only the american has been for the whole length of its existence?Quote:
Originally Posted by namenlose
Good post. I would suggest the Russians have such a novel in War and Peace...maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjetil
In a way, although Britain is a much smaller and less populous country than the USA, it is more complex. For a start it is a very old culture. England has an unbroken culture going back to at least Chaucer, 700 years ago.
I do think anglo saxon literature (Beowulf, the Battle of Maldon etc) captures something of the British, and especially English, national character: a pessimistic, cynical, dark (but also cheerful) willingness to endure. It's extraordinary how that attitude lingers even to this day.