Virgil, How funny, you were writing your post same time as I was - only 6 mins between. You beat me to the post. I will go back and read that one I missed.
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Virgil, How funny, you were writing your post same time as I was - only 6 mins between. You beat me to the post. I will go back and read that one I missed.
I did not know about this word being an elocution of Lawrence's and used in his past works. Thanks for pointing that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
That is a good one and I can see he uses it several times so he is emphasising it obviously. I was unaware consciously of this Lawrencian lingo. Great - I am learning something.Quote:
But even before this, Lawrence uses another phrase he circulates in other works:
"Melt" is the word and it does signal a transfiguration in Lawrencian lingo. A charcter for L usually goes from hard to soft, from crystal to melt. That's the second time in the story that F's heart melts. The first is just after she sits up.
Did he actually use the word ripped or was that your word? I don't see it there? I might have missed it. Well, it is just that a 'transfiguration' with Fergusson seems less natural and more forced to me - ok, maybe because I see this scene more realistically. His 'transfiguration' does not seem so defined as Mabel's. She actually went unconscious and came back to a new born life. He was not unconscious and did not have to be rescued and new life breathed into him - remember on the shore he resusitated her? So there is the difference in my mind. He went under the water for such a short time, I don't see his full 'transfiguration', as I do hers.Quote:
Melts twice in the story, his heart ripped, and crosses the gulf. While it is not as clearly put as Mabel, I think Ferguson does also undergo a transfiguration. But here's the clincher:
A flame too. All Lawrencian language.
Virgil, what happened to this part of the story? Did it get skipped over?I don't think you quoted it before and I think there are some important things in it. Sorry if I am backtracking a little. Be sure and read my last post, also. Thanks, J
This scene is after they get back and he gives her a swig of whiskey to revive her and takes one himself.
Hope none of this repeats. I just wanted to discuss it before we go onto the last parts of the story.Quote:
The effect was instantaneous. She looked full into his face, as if she had been seeing him for some time, and yet had only just become conscious of him.
'Dr. Fergusson?' she said.
'What?' he answered.
He was divesting himself of his coat, intending to find some dry clothing upstairs. He could not bear the smell of the dead, clayey water, and he was mortally afraid for his own health.
'What did I do?' she asked.
'Walked into the pond,' he replied. He had begun to shudder like one sick, and could hardly attend to her. Her eyes remained full on him, he seemed to be going dark in his mind, looking back at her helplessly. The shuddering became quieter in him, his life came back in him, dark and unknowing, but strong again.
'Was I out of my mind?' she asked, while her eyes were fixed on him all the time.
'Maybe, for the moment,' he replied. He felt quiet, because his strength had come back. The strange fretful strain had left him.
'Am I out of my mind now?' she asked.
'Are you?' he reflected a moment. 'No,' he answered truthfully, 'I don't see that you are.' He turned his face aside. He was afraid now, because he felt dazed, and felt dimly that her power was stronger than his, in this issue. And she continued to look at him fixedly all the time. 'Can you tell me where I shall find some dry things to put on?' he asked.
'Did you dive into the pond for me?' she asked.
'No,' he answered. 'I walked in. But I went in overhead as well.'
There was silence for a moment. He hesitated. He very much wanted to go upstairs to get into dry clothing. But there was another desire in him. And she seemed to hold him. His will seemed to have gone to sleep, and left him, standing there slack before her. But he felt warm inside himself. He did not shudder at all, though his clothes were sodden on him.
'Why did you?' she asked.
'Because I didn't want you to do such a foolish thing,' he said.
'It wasn't foolish,' she said, still gazing at him as she lay on the floor, with a sofa cushion under her head. 'It was the right thing to do. I knew best, then.'
'I'll go and shift these wet things,' he said. But still he had not the power to move out of her presence, until she sent him. It was as if she had the life of his body in her hands, and he could not extricate himself. Or perhaps he did not want to.
It didn't quite refer to his heart but he does say ripped. Here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
After the kiss, her eyes again slowly filled with tears. She sat still, away from him, with her face drooped aside, and her hands folded in her lap. The tears fell very slowly. There was complete silence. He too sat there motionless and silent on the hearthrug. The strange pain of his heart that was broken seemed to consume him. That he should love her? That this was love! That he should be ripped open in this way!--Him, a doctor!--How they would all jeer if they knew!--It was agony to him to think they might know.
Yes, I agree, it's not clear as with Mabel. It's a question of judgement. I've gone back and forth myself, and I could be persuaded to either way.Quote:
Well, it is just that a 'transfiguration' with Fergusson seems less natural and more forced to me - ok, maybe because I see this scene more realistically. His 'transfiguration' does not seem so defined as Mabel's. She actually went unconscious and came back to a new born life. He was not unconscious and did not have to be rescued and new life breathed into him - remember on the shore he resusitated her? So there is the difference in my mind. He went under the water for such a short time, I don't see his full 'transfiguration', as I do hers.
No not a repeat. What would you like to say about it? The part I see significance is this passage:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The notion that he is in her power. She is the one charged with a special experience. I guess it's her power that causes his transfiguration, if he indeed has one.Quote:
'Are you?' he reflected a moment. 'No,' he answered truthfully, 'I don't see that you are.' He turned his face aside. He was afraid now, because he felt dazed, and felt dimly that her power was stronger than his, in this issue. And she continued to look at him fixedly all the time. 'Can you tell me where I shall find some dry things to put on?' he asked.
Virgil, I don't have time for this tonight. I will have to delay till tomorrow to comment on everything in last two posts.
Yes, I think it says ripped open....funny about the heart...L usually said it was not so much the heart he was concerned with but deeper/lower down. L sure is confusing sometimes. Wish he were here so we could ask him specifically just what he meant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, same here if we could conjure up L from the "bring them back from the dead" thread and ask him directly we would know for sure. I don't think we can ever come to a solid conclusion.Quote:
Yes, I agree, it's not clear as with Mabel. It's a question of judgement. I've gone back and forth myself, and I could be persuaded to either way.
I see him very much under a spell and her power. Right about his tranfiguration - "if he indeed has one".... at all. Maybe L means him to have one eventually, but he does not really by the end of this short story. Maybe she does, but he does not yet. Could it be one-sided now or could his transfiguration come later after they have been married or they consumated their love physically? I had this thought - her's happened and his was a potentiality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
But when we go onto the next section I am still doubtful as to their happiness in the future. Let's proceed with what comes next in the text. Soon we will get to the part where he she goes upstairs to dress and to find him something dry to wear. I find this part interesting, but there may be some lines of significance right before that.
Well, let's discuss the ending Janine. Perhaps that's what's giving you this uneasy feeling over their future. Here's the first thing I want to point out:
This is similar to several Lawrence endings. L is adverse to the happy ever after ending. To close with a kiss, which is quite possible here, implies that time has ended. L could hold them in that perfect moment, but in real life that perfect moment ends and needs dictate that we move on to the next thing. The need here is to get Ferguson out of his wet clothes. So the perfect moment must break. This is just the opposite of John Keat's poem, "Ode To A Grecian Urn" where the lovers on the urn are frozen in time, forever in passion. Mabel and Ferguson are not images or sculptures or any other works of art (actually they are, but L is trying to reflect reality) but flesh and blood people with human needs and not severed from time. This I think is the note you hear. You may be hearing it as a discordant note suggesting trouble to come. To continue the music metaphor here, Lawrence does not like to end stories on a closed cadence, but I think it's called a false cadence in music or is it open cadence.Quote:
She shrank, and dropped her head. The soft, penetrating grip of his hand on her arm distressed her. She looked up at him.
'I want to go,' she said. 'I want to go and get you some dry things.'
'Why?' he said. 'I'm all right.'
'But I want to go,' she said. 'And I want you to change your things.'
He released her arm, and she wrapped herself in the blanket, looking at him rather frightened. And still she did not rise.
Now take a look further on:
Here it gets even more complicated. The pull of society tugs on Ferguson. Remember we were discussing the wall between their internal selves and the requirements of society? Well it comes back. Earlier we were talking about individual selves versus society, but now it's their combined couple's world versus the outside social world. Again the perfect moment can't remain forever. Time and human needs (society is not always negative with L) must intrude. And they must move on. However, I think you're going too far by interpreting it as a troubled future. It is that the present can't remain ideal forever.Quote:
It was six o'clock on the clock. His own watch had stopped. He ought to go back to the surgery. He waited, and still she did not come down. So he went to the foot of the stairs and called:
'I shall have to go.'
Almost immediately he heard her coming down. She had on her best dress of black voile, and her hair was tidy, but still damp. She looked at him--and in spite of herself, smiled.
'I don't like you in those clothes,' she said.
'Do I look a sight?' he answered.
They were shy of one another.
'I'll make you some tea,' she said.
'No, I must go.'
'Must you?' And she looked at him again with the wide, strained, doubtful eyes. And again, from the pain of his breast, he knew how he loved her. He went and bent to kiss her, gently, passionately, with his heart's painful kiss.
Oh, this is perfect, Virgil. Really I mean it. I know, all so well, that L never leaves a story with a "happily ever after" ending. Yet unlike Hardy he rarely goes for complete tragedy with his endings. This all makes perfect sense to me now. You will laugh at me but several times I have read this ending and I mistoke this line:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
'I don't like you in those clothes,' she said.
as being said by Fergusson. I wonder why I did that (must need new eyes:eek2:been staring at this computer screen too long).
Now that would change
the whole context and feeling/mood and significance of that ending. Ok, now that I see this clearly and correctly, I understand. I thought he was criticising her for the clothes she had put on - "her best dress of black voile". By the way, odd that Lawrence picked a black dress after the whole death morning scene at the grave. Hard to conceive of a black dress being worn by such a transformed/radiant person. Do you see this having any significance? Perhaps just the fashion of the day but in other novels and stories L often points out colors of a woman's clothes such as bright yellow or white to indicate a lightness and gaiety or mood. Now at the end Mabel appears very proper with that black dress - it feels sort of forbodding or dismal to me, but maybe that too is signifying her return to reality.
The way that L seems to pull one back into reality and to the concrete is strange after seeing the whole set of events so symbolically, but as you pointed out, this is very effective in grounding us in the real world by the end of the story. Maybe one could say L is a combination of both "idealist" and "realist", but put into some type of balance with each other, or so it would be his personal goal at the least.
Everything you wrote here makes perfect sense - good job of thinking it out clearly.
I see you changed your avy? Now who is that? YOU? :D
I have no knowledge of women's clothing. ;) I don't have any thoughts on clothing significance. But isn't Mabel naked here, just with a blanket over her?
Signature picture is of the real Virgil. Not me. :lol: Am I that old? :p
Well, I am just into the "symbolic" significance of color....being the artist I am, and recalling L's use of color in other books. He so often paints a very vivid colorful picture of all kinds of things...he is quite an artist that way to I thought the black might have a significance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Answer to second (sign pic) question,
Yes, you're quite an ancient!:lol::D :lol:
PS: I liked the Phoenix better - more interesting and nice colors!
Oh what was the color, black? I didn't notice, to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
:lol: Yes, I'm ancient, but I wouldn't talk if I were you. You're catching up to me. ;) Just thought it is was time for a change on the signature. I am completely and forever locked into the wolf for my avy, so I have to alter something else. I'll bring it back.Quote:
Answer to second (sign pic) question,
Yes, you're quite an ancient!:lol::D :lol:
PS: I liked the Phoenix better - more interesting and nice colors!
Unless you have more to discuss, I think we are finished with "The Horse Dealer's Daughter." As you can see by the length and breath of this dicussion that this is a very rich story. It really contains many of the Lawrencian themes (although not all) that runs through much of his work. That's why I selected it. Anyone that wants to understand other Lawrence works would be wise to go through this thread.
Now on to "The Prussian Officer."
Catching up to you? - what do you mean, you will be catching up to me. I am older than you!:bawling: But anyway, I meant you had an ancient soul - like an old soul....very wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yeah, I thought of changing my avatar, but then I would find it harder to find myself and wonder, too, if others would pass me by knowing my old avy and it is bright and easy to recognise. But the Virgil relief is a little flat and colorless, compared to the other one that looked so interesting.Quote:
Just thought it is was time for a change on the signature. I am completely and forever locked into the wolf for my avy, so I have to alter something else. I'll bring it back.
Virgil, Can we go to next story tomorrow? But can we address the last few paragraphs of the story? There were a few things in there I wanted to discuss before we wrap it up completely. It won't take long....promise.Quote:
Unless you have more to discuss, I think we are finished with "The Horse Dealer's Daughter." As you can see by the length and breath of this dicussion that this is a very rich story. It really contains many of the Lawrencian themes (although not all) that runs through much of his work. That's why I selected it. Anyone that wants to understand other Lawrence works would be wise to go through this thread.
Now on to "The Prussian Officer."
"This is a very rich story" - yes, I was just thinking of this - you really picked a good story to study.
Ok, Virgil, humor me...I am just posting these last closing lines before we wrap this story up.
What I would like to know is why she seems to need so much reassurance? She seems to be very insecure? She keeps pointing out that she is 'horrible' and how can he love her? What do you suppose is the purpose of this ending? I felt this part of the story rather unsettling and strange. I think this is actually the part that makes me question as to whether they will be happy in the future.Quote:
'No, I must go.'
'Must you?' And she looked at him again with the wide, strained, doubtful eyes. And again, from the pain of his breast, he knew how he loved her. He went and bent to kiss her, gently, passionately, with his heart's painful kiss.
'And my hair smells so horrible,' she murmured in distraction. 'And I'm so awful, I'm so awful! Oh, no, I'm too awful.' And she broke into bitter, heart-broken sobbing. 'You can't want to love me, I'm horrible.'
'Don't be silly, don't be silly,' he said, trying to comfort her, kissing her, holding her in his arms. 'I want you, I want to marry you, we're going to be married, quickly, quickly--to-morrow if I can.'
But she only sobbed terribly, and cried:
'I feel awful. I feel awful. I feel I'm horrible to you.'
'No, I want you, I want you,' was all he answered, blindly, with that terrible intonation which frightened her almost more than her horror lest he should not want her.
It is strange, and a little mysterious. What I think is that another form of reality is settling in. By such love, the two have coupled as one unit, and in some heavenly sphere I believe Lawrence thinks they will be one, two halves of the male/female dualism. But that is in a heavenly sphere and they are still on earth and in the context of individual flesh and blood. Her insecurity is something that comes out of internal self (her ego I think L would say), a wall between her and him. I'm a little less certain on this that the other stuff I've explained.
Virgil, I buy all of this. I like your take on the dualism - two halves of the male/female. Yes, it fits well with L's ideas/ideals. He never really departs fully from reality, does he? Just when one things spiritually he yanks you back into the real world we all must live in. I think here he grounds the story in this final scene in reality with Mabel's insecurity. I had not thought of it before, but it is more evident to me now. It is a sort of device to pull one back to the actual physical world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Virgil, Now I am satisfied with this story. I think we can now wrap this one up and go onto the next one, what do you think?
Happy to report that last night I read "The Prussian Officer".
Wow, I liked it very much! I thought I had read it before, but now I don't think it at all familiar; if I did, I had forgotten it. I may have another read-through of the story tonight, but basically I have a good memory of the plot at this time, still quite fresh in my mind.
I don't know how we will treat this story, since we don't have the text online to cut and paste, as we did with the others. We will have to type out passages, I suppose.
I will leave the start to you - you are so good at it. Can we begin at the opening scene when the soldiers are marching toward the mountains?
I have a question, also. Is this a "frame story"? Doesn't it start at one point and return to it at the end? Or since it is all being told by one person with no set introduction, would it be considered something else? It is told in three distinct parts. This is quite different in format and subject matter than "HDD" or other L short stories. It will definitely make for a lively and enthralling discussion.
Afternote:I was going to read only one part of the story last night, but I could not put it down. I had to find out what was going to happen. A very good read!
I wonder if Asa has read it yet.
Great that you liked The Horse Dealer's Daughter and that you are satisfied with our interpretations. I say "our" because so much one arrives through a give and take.
I haven't read The Prussian Officer in many years. I'll read it tonight. Glad you liked it.
Virgil, Glad you saw this. Glad now to move on. I think we beat "HDD" to death don't you?....a l t h o u g h.....I probably could have said a few more things about it.....:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
.......happy to move on though....something new is definitely in order;)
Virgil, take your time reading; Asa may not have read it yet either. For once I am the first to read something - amazing:D
Yes, loved all the stories we did so far! And this one is great, too.
Havent read yet. Spending my free time pouring concrete footings for my blasted deck! A tree fell on it this weekend. :(
I will try my best to finish the story asap
Asa
Asa, take your time. Virgil and I are in no hurry; when we started this thread we figured we would go out our own pace and in-between other things like 'book of the month', etc. I just happened to be between books last night and read it. It was good, but a little longer than the last one I believe; has three parts. I will probably read it again. We can start a few days from now, or when we all have read it. No problem.
Sorry about your deck. Trees can be hazzardous - at least it did not fall on you!;)
Hey guys...sorry for the intrusion...a "little birdie" told me to come and visit the thread...and well...here I am ;) I just read a short story by Lawrence... Rocking-Horse Winner. As I was reading it, I realized that I had read that story a long time ago....back in my freshman (high school) English class...
Anyway...don't let me interrupt the flow of your discussion...just wanted to stop by and share that :)
Well, that is a good story, Malwethien. Would you like to join our discussion? Perhaps we can pick Rocking Horse Winner as an up coming story for discussion. Anyway, feel free to join any time you wish. You are not interrupting.
:wave: Hi malwethien, Could I have been that little birdie?;) I am trying to get word out about our great thread here and inspire some people to read some Lawrence.Quote:
Originally Posted by malwethien
Yes, "Rocking Horse Winner" is a very good story. I believe that at that point in his short story writing, L crosses over into a more surrealistic or magical world. My sister always loved that story. She still recalls it. Leaves an impression on one.
This story we are currently reading is different, but quite captivating. Given your keen sensitivity to people and characters, I think you would like it very much. Not a romance though;), but good interaction between characters.
Virgil has posted a link to the story online. I read it in one night, and intended to break it up for a 3 part reading, but then I read on - I wanted to see what was to happen at the outcome/end. It captivated me the way L wrote it.
Sure hope you come in and comment from time to time, or at least read the posts. I know you will enjoy them and learn something new here.
Yes, of course, who else would it be? ;) You are reading The Prussian Officer? If that's the one then I have already found a copy online and I am planning on reading it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Oh good, some one else joining!!
:wave: Hi malwethien, just realised the link is in email, but it is probably the same site. I will send the link to you. Virgil sent it to me and to Asa.Quote:
Originally Posted by malwethien
Great - so glad you can join us! The story is an interesting one to disguss. Later you might want to read the two we just discussed and read the posts to learn more about the stories. Those were a little shorter than this one.
hi you all !! so glad to see some enthusiasm for Lawrence here !! where do I sign ?? seriously, I would like to join your discussions? Thanks
"all his success was hers .........." (Sons and Lover)
Love your name Inspirangel. Welcome to lit net. You've already joined. Come along. We are in the middle of reading The Prussian Officer. No one has posted anything on it yet. If you go back in this thread, we've read two other stories, "Things," and "The Horse Dealer's Daughter." Feel free to comment on them, or you cqn start with "The Prussian Officer."Quote:
Originally Posted by inspirangel
I see you're a big Lawrence fan. Join the club!!
Thanks for the encouragement - will head for the City Library on Saturday in meantime would appreciate your critique of my helium article on "The Piano" - DH of course !!
Sure, where is that? Could you provide a link? I did my master's thesis on Lawrence, by the way. If you're interested I could emal that to you some day.Quote:
Originally Posted by inspirangel
Hi again - yes sure, for link - quickest way is to see it on MySpace www.myspace.com/inspirangels and then click on helium button - if this is ok to post link on here (dont want to break any forum rules!!) or I could message back with url when i have looked up - ALSO I just posted recommendation for this On -literature forum on my blog (so you can see I am impressed!)
Hi inspirangel, So glad to have you aboard! I like your name also. I too am a huge Lawrence fan. I am about to start my 4th biography - just my own independent life-time study/pursuit; also reading "Collected Letters" and some other related books. I am so happy to find another Lawrence enthusiast. You will love these discussions. So far they have been going very well. Two new people are joining in this month and now you, as well...great! It is good to see people finally surfacing who appreciate the great writer's works.Quote:
Originally Posted by inspirangel
Also, welcome to Lit Net - you will love it. I am totally addicted, by now. You probably will be, too, in no time.
Virgil has the link to this story available on a site online. This way we can copy and paste to discuss certain paragraphs and lines. I or he can send it to you in email; we were not sure about posting the link in here. Let us know.
I too will check out your review on the link you provided. Always great to read more about Lawrence.
PS:I just edited this to add something - I did not find the article you mentioned in your blog, but instead I did find the Wren's Nest. I must write you back and post another entry that is in L's very first novel "The White Peacock", which is a hard book to find; he began writing it when he was only 21, I believe. It referrs to something similiar about a nest in the field, and is wonderful. Maybe you could add it to your blog. Let me look it up and type it out to post later or send to you directly. You will love it. It is very heartfelt.
OK - Thanks for the welcome !! Let me know and I wil surely look up - I am pleased to have found this site - I deliberately have not read all of Lawrences work (like Jane Austen I am rationing them out over a lifetime so I can savour reading new ones for the first time), hoever I can read S and L and The R over and over !!
Yes - sorry I was not clear enough - recommendation to Online lit is on blog - press helium button on my profile for Article on "The Piano" - do you agree with my interpretation ?? (You can be honest ..............)
Ah, another lover of The Rainbow. My favorite Lawrence work.Quote:
Originally Posted by inspirangel
inspirangel,Quote:
Originally Posted by inspirangel
Next try "Women in Love" - it follows "The Rainbow", but very much stands appart from it. I loved that book, probably my favorite. Virgil's favorite was the R. I only recently read "Sons and Lovers" - loved it since now I appreciate how autobiographical it is. I too, have read L's works over much time - my whole lifetime so far. It is a fine pursuit indeed and great goal.
Hope you caught my added PS: on my last email. I was probably editing it when you were emailing me back. Sorry about that.
Sorry I did not read "The Piano" article yet, but I will later on. Virgil just came on to say what I had said - his favorite book is "The Rainbow". We all seem to be posting at once...how funny:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by inspirangel
How come I didn't see this thread before? lol
I love D.H. Lawrence and I always thought he only wrote novels, stuff like Sons and Lovers...till I came across a book called D.H Lawrence: Selected Tales..I was like what that....? so he DID write short stories. I haven't started in reading any of them...but I'm sure I'll enjoy them!
Nossa, welcome - yes, do join in our group discussions, too. Lawrence's novels overshadowed recognition of his great, and I mean great, short stories. Now more than ever he is noted for them. We have studied 2 so far on this thread and now we are doing "The Prussian Officer'. We are all in the process now of reading the story, but soon posts will start up discussing it from the beginning. I hope you can join in.
Let me know in PM mail if you want me to send you the link to the story. It is on a site online. Virgil found it. For you information, Lawrence wrote much and was a very prolific author. I have read 3 biographies on the man and Virgil did his thesis on him.
Sorry you had not seen this thread earlier, but so glad you have found it finally. Glad, too, that you appreciate Lawrence. Hope to hear from you soon. You will enjoy the stories emensely. Janine