Thank you for the background information, that is rather amusing
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Thank you for the background information, that is rather amusing
DM, it looks like it is just you and me in here for now. Should I post the next section of the poem?
Yes so it seems. I am ready for it. Sense no one else seems to be posting here, I say you can go ahead and post the next part
Ok, DM, later tonight then, if I am not too tired out. Did you see that ad on our page right now? "Who has a crush on you?" - haha - wonder who has a crush on me???? :lol:
I apologize for not participating yet. I will get into it tonight, I promise.
Virgil, good...Ok and ok on the other L thread. I will post in there later on - going out soon.
Ok, I've read the poem once and I need to read it again. But what does the title "Lui et Elle" mean? Is that a man's and woman's name? Are we doing this in sections too? We should post the entire poem in a solid block.
I did some research and found out it means He and It
Virgil, I did post the entire poem; look back a page, silly. How did you miss it? Now I am taking it by stanzas; but we have only talked about a few so far. So what should I do now that you popped back in here? Shall I wait until you comment on the poem and give your first impression to the theme and meaning, as in the other short story thread? I can easily wait; I just got home and I am tired out now. Read it over again and let me know when to post the next part - ok?Quote:
Ok, I've read the poem once and I need to read it again. But what does the title "Lui et Elle" mean? Is that a man's and woman's name? Are we doing this in sections too? We should post the entire poem in a solid block.
My friend was over last night and I showed her the poem and then I got my dictionary out - French/English and while I was trying to find the words, she looked them up online and finally we determined it means 'he and she'. Where did you get it from 'It' from Dark Muse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Who's Manny? :alien:
No go on with the poem, I'll catch up.
Oh I think it means He and She. That makes a lot of sense.
Yes, apprently the original source I used was mistaken, I did further looking into it, and it is He and She
Glad you enjoyed that. I like to dig up this stuff on L and his wife. Guess I am just naturally nosey. ;):lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
:rolleyes::cool:Humm...I don't know a 'Manny'...never heard of him, did you? Strange ...:alien:... Who is Janine? I think today she is a dunce. I humbly beg your apologises, Virgil...I realise I thought I posted the entire poem, but I did not, unless :confused: it got buried several pages back, I should check that now. I think I will go back and post it somewhere in my former post, if it is not there afterall. Sorry 'bout that - so much was going on here, with all the changes, I must have just missed that part. I will let you all know, which post I edit, to post the introduction/poem introduction. Talk about confused:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Ok, good, I will then - today.Quote:
No go on with the poem, I'll catch up.
Yes, it does, since the first part is about the female tortoise and the second part focus' on the male or her mate.Quote:
Oh I think it means He and She. That makes a lot of sense
UPDATE: Ok, just editing this - Virgil and Dark Muse, I placed the entire poem in post #102...I had originally only reposted your former link, Virgil, and then if you look at post #98 - I also reposted your introductory information on the entire series of 'Tortoise' poems.
So now I will go ahead and post the next part of the poem we encounter.
Here is the next few stanzas of the poem:
Quote:
O Mistress, Mistress,
Reptile mistress,
Your eye is very dark, very bright,
And it never softens
Although you watch.
She knows,
She knows well enough to come for food,
Yet she sees me not;
Her bright eye sees, but not me, not anything,
Sightful, sightless, seeing and visionless,
Reptile mistress.
Taking bread in her curved, gaping, toothless mouth,
She has no qualm when she catches my finger in her steel overlapping gums,
But she hangs on, and my shout and my shrinking are nothing to her,
She does not even know she is nipping me with her curved beak.
Snake-like she draws at my finger, while I drag it in horror away.
First of all I just have to say I loved these lines. It was one of my favorite parts of the poem, the way the verse is somewhat repeated, though the words are changed slightly, it begins the same.
It sounds like some sort of chant to me, which is why I liked it. An invocation to the reptile goodess.Quote:
O Mistress, Mistress,
Reptile mistress,
Your eye is very dark, very bright,
And it never softens
Although you watch.
I will come back later to post on the rest of this section of the poem
DM,I like that part, too...I think Lawrence used the repetition well and he establishes a nice rhythm; it is as you say - words slightly varied to make it work. It does indeed sound very much like a chant and I think that was his intention at this point in the poem. It is also very naturalistic. I feel he establishes a real connection here with himself, his wife and the natural animal world. Even in his contact of feeding the female, you feel a 'personal' connection and when you get to the part describing the male, you can't but help to see L's own personality emerge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
This part of the poem that you quoted could almost stand by itself as a short little poem with it's own significance and deeper meaning.
This I think is a bit of a comical look into the domestic life when the passion has dwindled out of the marrige. You get this picture of the dejected husband sitting at the table while his wife seems not to notice his existence any longer.Quote:
She knows,
She knows well enough to come for food,
Yet she sees me not;
Her bright eye sees, but not me, not anything,
Sightful, sightless, seeing and visionless,
Reptile mistress.
This makes me think of a sort of vacant stare. A glazed over look, of just going over the same routine day in and day out, but no longer truly living.Quote:
Her bright eye sees, but not me, not anything,
Sightful, sightless, seeing and visionless,
I still need to ponder over the last verse in this section a bit more.
Good points, Dark Muse and I would have to agree with you. I think that he must have written this poem later on when his own marriage had become a little hum-drum and telltale. It is quite amusing, at least to me.
Take your time mulling over the last stanza; I am a little tired and worn-out tonight anyway.
I found these lines to be quite comical. It makes me think of this woman/creature, whatever it is, just shoveling food in thier mouth when the poor unfornate husband happens to get his hand in the way and gets caught, and she/it does not even notice and just keeps eating.Quote:
Taking bread in her curved, gaping, toothless mouth,
She has no qualm when she catches my finger in her steel overlapping gums,
But she hangs on, and my shout and my shrinking are nothing to her,
She does not even know she is nipping me with her curved beak.
Snake-like she draws at my finger, while I drag it in horror away.
I think the use of the word "toothless" here further emphasizes the point that they have been together a long time and are in the later years of thier relationship.
I'm caught up. :D
I agree with everything that has been said. Of the Tortoise poems, this does seem different. Notice these lines:
This I think is the only one of the poems where the poet actually physically participates in the poem. The other poems I think focus soley on the tortoise.Quote:
She snaps the soft bread from my hand in great mouthfuls,
Opening her rather pretty wedge of an iron, pristine face
Into an enormously wide-beaked mouth
Like sudden curved scissors,
And gulping at more than she can swallow, and working her thick, soft tongue,
And having the bread hanging over her chin.
Also, this is a grown up Tortoise, though a young adult. This first of the Tortoise poems was of an infant Tortoise, the second of a child tortoise within a family, and now this as a sort of sexually aware Tortoise. There is the female, more experienced and our hero torotoise will follow and sort of get initiated :blush: into the sexual world. The female is matronly and experienced and he is a sort of youth learning about the birds and the bees. ;)At least this is how I read this poem.
Virgil, Glad that you finally got caught up and resurfaced; maybe like a tortoise digging his way back from the soil;). I think that Quark is having a similar problem; we have not seen him for days, since he has made his move into his new place. He will resurface soon, too.:)
I did a little more research on the poems. This poem was written around 1920 according to the timeline book: Sagar ~ "A Calender of his Works." I am reposting what you wrote sometime back, explaining Lawrence intentions for these poems as a group, representing the various stages of one's life:
I found this reference also in the same book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I did a little reseach on Lawrence's Tortoise poems and I wanted to share it with you. The Tortoise poems are a sequence of six poems that Lawrence wrote and first published as a small bookl called Tortoise (1921) and then incoproated into a much larger book of poems called Birds, Beasts and Flowers (1923). The Tortoise poems were actually written in September of 1920 while Lawrence was staying alone in Florence, Italy. The six poems are called "Baby Tortoise," "Tortoise Shell," "Tortoise Family Connections," "Lui Et Elle," "Tortoise Gallantry," and "Tortoise Shout." The movement of the poems goes from birth to adulthood to death. Thy span the life cycle.
So, he wrote all of these and the tortoise poem when he was 34, but considering he only lived to be 44, and had aged with his own illness and weakened state (just look at any photo of the two) he was an old 34; so was Frieda with her hefty weight, although she seemed to be healthy and lived to a ripe old age. I think what I am trying to point out is I think this poem reveals more the old married couple and the middle-aged stage L. This is actually the fourth poem in the sequence; we have discussed 3 prior to this one. Wait, we did do all three - right? I will have to check on that - I don't quite recall the "Tortoise Family" one.Quote:
September 1920 At Villa Canovaia,San Gervasio, Florence, until about 28, then to Vence.
SUMMARY: Lawrence, alone in Florence, wrote a little more of Aaron's Rod, America, 'Listen to Your Own', and a dozen poems for Birds, Beasts, and Flowers.
Rosalind Thornycroft Popham: 'While still in Sicily, Lawrence had hoped to come to Florence......Eventually he did come, and stayed two or three weeks before going on to Venice where later Frieda joined him en route to Germany. While there he wrote "The Evangelistic Beasts", the tortoise poems, "The Pomegranate", "The Peach," and "The Fig".
Yes, I do think that passage that you posted is a curious part of the poem but I think I read it a little differently than you do. I see both the male and the female as more equal and middle-aged, as Dark Muse has pointed out - this marriage has been around awhile. I add to that, that the two have become 'used' to each other in their little quirps and such. Isn't that how it is usually in a marriage - even the best of them?
Dark Muse, you bring up some other good points in your last post.
Virgil, I think one would have to say this poem represents a more advanced stage in life - middle-aged. Back then probably 34 was considered 'middle-aged'.
Here are the next 4 stanzas:
I think it is interesting that in the second stanza Lawrence states "I am almost frightened." Then in the next line the way he abruptly switches to the male description -"He is much smaller,"Quote:
Taking bread in her curved, gaping, toothless mouth,
She has no qualm when she catches my finger in her steel overlapping gums,
But she hangs on, and my shout and my shrinking are nothing to her,
She does not even know she is nipping me with her curved beak.
Snake-like she draws at my finger, while I drag it in horror away.
Mistress, reptile mistress,
You are almost too large, I am almost frightened.
He is much smaller,
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.
Her laconic eye has an earthy, materialistic look,
His, poor darling, is almost fiery.
His wimple, his blunt-prowed face,
His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled, striving legs,
So striving, striving,
Are all more delicate than she,
And he has a cruel scar on his shell.
Poor darling, biting at her feet,
Running beside her like a dog, biting her earthy, splay feet,
Nipping her ankles,
Which she drags apathetic away, though without retreating into her shell.
Agelessly silent,
And with a grim, reptile determination,
Cold, voiceless age-after-age behind him, serpents' long obstinacy
Of horizontal persistence.
I like what follows.
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.
This still seems to me that Lawrence is seeing the tortoise couple, as he would percieve himself and his wife Frieda - she being large and he being small, but dapper. He even goes as far as to say he is 'ridiculously small'. I notice he begins that stanza with the reptile reference, as though the female's reptile presence takes over the male and makes him small in comparison, subservient to this strong power of the female.
These lines are quite comical I think, and they make me think of the story The Shadow in the Rose Garden, I remember in that the man is said to be rather small, while they talk of how fine the woman's carraige is.Quote:
Mistress, reptile mistress,
You are almost too large, I am almost frightened.
He is much smaller,
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.
I find the use of the words earthy and materilastic together to be quite currious, usually those are two things that are set apart from each other.Quote:
Her laconic eye has an earthy, materialistic look,
His, poor darling, is almost fiery.
His wimple, his blunt-prowed face,
His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled, striving legs,
So striving, striving,
Are all more delicate than she,
For some reason this makes me think of a woman dragging her husband off shoping with her when he does not want to go.Quote:
And he has a cruel scar on his shell.
Poor darling, biting at her feet,
Running beside her like a dog, biting her earthy, splay feet,
Nipping her ankles,
Which she drags apathetic away, though without retreating into her shell.
Agelessly silent,
And with a grim, reptile determination,
Cold, voiceless age-after-age behind him, serpents' long obstinacy
Of horizontal persistence.
:lol: I am following you around DM, :lol: You are so swift, I just posted this and then checked the social groups...then your photo comment...
I thought so, too...very comical, as if Lawrence is laughing at himself. It does indeed recall us to that short story and the way the couple was described. I had not thought of that before you mentioned it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
That is curious as you say. We must think on that and just why Lawrence choose to place them in the same sentence and description and so close to each other - they certainly set up a kind of contrast or duality. Yet I think a person could be both - I think he may have seen his wife as being both earthy and materialistic, even though she did not live high by any standard; she did like fine things though, and she must have been earthy to marry Lawrence...;)Quote:
I find the use of the words earthy and materilastic together to be quite currious, usually those are two things that are set apart from each other.
Indeed it does and it reminded me immediately of a scene right out of his travel book - I think "Sea and Sardina", when Frieda spied a marketplace and Lawrence grumbled about her wanting to go off to buy some local items and some fruit. You could tell he was being playful, but somewhat typically male as well, as when a women says the dreaded word "shopping"! ;):lol:Quote:
For some reason this makes me think of a woman dragging her husband off shoping with her when he does not want to go.
I enjoyed this stanza, She holds the pwer in the relationship and the young male tortoise is so accepting of her. At least here. I love the word "dapper" here. :lol: It seems to say so much.Quote:
Mistress, reptile mistress,
You are almost too large, I am almost frightened.
He is much smaller,
Dapper beside her,
And ridiculously small.
I did, too.....the word 'dapper' is a sort of humorous word to me...when I see a dapper gentleman I think of someone a little overdressed with a fashionable hat and walking stick; but that is just me. I do think by using the word - Lawrence did interject a bit of humor in this poem and his timing for the word was perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I found this stanza more serious and more self-pitying in a way, contrasting her "laconic eye" with "an earthy, materialsitic look" with "His, poor darling, is almost fiery."...very curious words Lawrence uses here....what exactly do you think he means by her 'laconic eye' and his being 'almost firery'?Quote:
Her laconic eye has an earthy, materialistic look,
His, poor darling, is almost fiery.
His wimple, his blunt-prowed face,
His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled,
striving legs,
So striving, striving,
Are all more delicate than she,
He goes onto point to his 'wimple', 'his blunt-prowed face, His low forehead, his skinny neck, his long, scaled, striving legs'....
I count 6 times the repeated word 'his' in that stanza, sandwiched between the two lone references to the female - 'Her' and 'she' - first and last line. Interesting use of repetition to set up a rhythm and make his point about the male's weakness in relation to the power of the female tortoise.
Then he goes onto put further emphasis on the word 'striving',
'striving' being repeated 3 times, before the admission that he is " more delicate than she". Interesting discribing mostly the male in that stanza, but ending with 'she.'
Also, in separating the sentences, in that one stanza, the first half has the H sound prominent and in the second half, the S sound is emphasised.
Found a interesting photo of Lawrence I will post tonight.
Did I loose everyone here discussing this poem? Maybe we can resume soon since the L short story thread is on hold for this month. I would eventually like to get to all of the poems since the represent the various cycles of life in nature.
I am game if you wish to continue, I guess it just got forgotton with everything else that was going on.
Ok, with me. :)
Dark Muse and Virgil....haha...seems I only have to post and comment and your two arrive. I must have the magic touchtonight. Glad you two are game. We can go from where we left off. Let me review it tomorrow and see if it is time to post anymore of the poem; meanwhile, someone might want to comment on my post #146....please...someone....anyone....
I did not really get that impression. I felt the use of langauge kept up the slightly humurous tone of the poem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think it is a way that contrasts there two personsalites. I see her as being rather slow and lazy, with all her eating. While with the use of the word "firey" he seems to appear to be more high-strung, and anxious. He seems almost more frantic, while she is very slow, and low key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes I agree it gets more serious now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
What do you think the effect is of the repetitions? I don't think it's just for emphasis, though it's that too.Quote:
I count 6 times the repeated word 'his' in that stanza, sandwiched between the two lone references to the female - 'Her' and 'she' - first and last line. Interesting use of repetition to set up a rhythm and make his point about the male's weakness in relation to the power of the female tortoise.
I think the repetition of "his" coordinates with the repetition of "striving." I think the lines just move with the slow ponderous walk of a tortoise.Quote:
Then he goes onto put further emphasis on the word 'striving',
'striving' being repeated 3 times, before the admission that he is " more delicate than she". Interesting discribing mostly the male in that stanza, but ending with 'she.'
Glad to see you two back! I will be back tomorrow to comment on your posts. Too tired out now.....
shockingly starkly reminds one of slow and steady and winning and race and I feel hope and pity and awe and relief. in the context of the baby tort as a potentially fragile newborn, pure and uncorrupted and potentially vulnerable, I both marvel at all that virginity, naivety and purety, but given what I perceive regarding the longevity, steadfastness, disciplined dogedness, and perhaps arrogance, of tortoises, this poem, without reading it, must be a celebration of the diversity of life, the rejection of competition, the foolishness of panic, the bliss of ignorance.
Hi scaredoldunit, I see you are a new member. Welcome to the forum. Are you a Lawrence enthusiast? Before I answer the above, are you referring to the first poem we discussed of this series - "Baby Tortoise"? I posted a few times in this thread that Lawrence wrote this series of poems each representing different stages in life. We are currently on one near to the end of the series, but I would be glad to discuss with you the earlier "Baby Tortoise" if you so please. Also, it would benefit you to go back and read that first discussion on that particular poem. It is quite informative/enlightening, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredoldunit
The one we are currently discussing we are nearly done and it involves middle aged years. Soon we will start a new poem - it maybe the last in the series. I will have to check my references on that.
sometimes tardiness is judged to be weak, from what i've witnessed sure patience is sleek, designed for efficient avoidance of leaking, leaks are unsound not in line with our thinking,
time is the tyrant like thurston has said, thankful for rules without which all is dead. dead ain't no problem as much as it's true, truth's not so bad if you don't need no proof, points are cooridinates lost it is sure, nowhere is lost and right here to be sure, things that define themselves are quite a trip, finding it hard to evade their own grip?
Essence and purety cannot be taught, more slanted toward instinct, most wisely sought are the things that can point us towards faith thus from mind, difficult it is and ending to find.
scaredoldunit, excuse me for asking, but what does your poem have to do with this discussion on the Tortoise poem "Lui et Elle"? This is one in Lawrence's series on the cycles of life, about the 'middle-aged' years. I am not sure I can see that relationship in your poem above. Can you explain? Maybe I have missed something.
We do need to get back to the basic discussion in this thread, of the current poem; partly this is my fault, for not posting another section of text to discuss. I have been sick, but this week, I will do so and hopefully those discussing it before, will return to finish up this poem; so we can proceed to the next poem in the series.
Suggestion: either post your poem in another thread of it's own or start a blog of your
poems. Many people do so.
i'm purposely out of control and feel bad about corrupting your blog and it will end with this
Ok, thanks and this is a thread discussion, not a personal blog.Quote:
Originally Posted by scaredoldunit