---- it, you've converted me.
Now I will recieve my rewards.
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---- it, you've converted me.
Now I will recieve my rewards.
I've stayed off this thread on purpose, but in reading over the posts I wonder if I made the right decision. Most of you seem to be genuinely interested in discussing things. Psyche, sadly, many people do feel that way about religion. My two cents: It's not to be used as a fire escape. Christ went to the common man and woman, those society had kicked out, and the established church of His day jumped all over Him. But who needs the love of God more, the people in the church or the ones who may never darken a door? Remember the story Jesus told of the shepherd with 99 sheep in the fold and one lost. He will go after the one. I say to you that there is much difference between religion and salvation! Not everyone who attends church really has God working in their life. That makes it hard on people who are trying to use Christ as an example, and show the love of God to everyone, regardless. If I cannot feel for someone, if I have no compassion for what they go through, if all I do is stand around and condemn them, how can I ever expect them to trust me to help them? The best sermon you'll ever preach is the way you act and the way you live; the way you treat others.... :angel: :nod: :wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycheinaboat
Agreed, Pen.... :thumbs_up:
Thanks for the support, Adelheid. Always appreciated. :thumbs_up :angel:
Don't know why I'm chiming in, again, but I am. I would first like to say to Ancestor that I have great respect for you, and each one of your posts is beautiful and kind and wise, even when you get frustrated. You have not said anything I would consider offensive, in fact I wish I was as patient with others as you.
I also believe that everyone's belief is right. Not "right" meaning "correct," but "right" meaning "valid." Until I was 16 or 17 I was a very spiritual person, and felt in my heart a deep connection with God. And that was right, because it was a belief that I honestly felt in my heart, and I did charitable things and tried to love others and to appreciate all the beautiful things in the world. Now I no longer feel in my heart that there is a God, and no amount of prayer or reflection or church attendence is going to change that, but that is also right, because it is what I honestly feel, and I am not a worse person for it. I just lost faith, and now I wish I could be agnostic and say, "Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't"—in fact, I'm striving toward that kind of acceptance,—but I can't truthfully say I'm agnostic, because I can't help believing that God just doesn't exist. I can't help it anymore than I could once have made myself not believe. It's just something that is either there or it isn't. And you know what? I still do charitable works, and I try not to hate others and to appreciate all the beautiful things in the world, and to do my best to make the bad better again. I do it because that, to me, is the purpose of life.
I did lose my faith when I became depressed, and I am still very depressed, for over five years now, but it was not because I felt God had wronged me somehow. Declaring oneself an atheist because "God would not allow such suffering in the world" seems like a very shallow argument to me. I think there is suffering in the world because human beings are the way we are; people will always misunderstand and hate one another, things will not always go the way we wish, viruses and bacteria and genetics will cause some people to be diseased, and endless other reasons, none of which have any basis in whether or not a higher power created them. I am depressed because the chemicals/electro-magnetic impulses in my head don't work right. I'm grateful for all the good things I have, I care deeply about other people, I am hopeful for the future, but the chemicals in the brain that trigger happiness in other people just don't work in mine. *shrug* It's not God's fault, and it's not a result of not believing in God; just is.
When people say they don't believe in God "because he let this bad thing happen to me," it is, to me, the ultimate example of belief. You can't hate something if you don't believe it's there. It is an example of refusing to worship God out of feelings of revenge, but is in itself a very sincere expression of faith.
How did I let another post of mine get so long? :confused: Sorry, folks. I'll conclude. Oh, afterlife: No, I don't believe there is such a thing as a spirit, so I don't believe it can continue on after the body is dead. I think what we feel as consciousness is the result of electro-magnetic activity in the brain, and when the brain dies, consciousness disappears, and that is the end of that. It doesn't make me sad; it makes death in general less sad to me, actually, I don't know why. It's less like someone leaving, and more like something being over and done.
Okay, so that's what this atheist is like. I hope it's helpful, somehow.
EDIT: I'd like to comment on how respectful and peaceful this area of the forum has become since the last time I was here. :) It seems it used to be all fighting and name-calling and no one really listening, and I love it this way. Thank you, everyone, for the effort and respect it takes to keep such discussions peaceful, even when some people try to turn it into a fight. I love and respect all of you!
I am an atheist and believe completely in nothingness after death. Surely it's the most likely outcome. "Preposterous"...how so? I think that it's quite arrogant of humans to be unable to accept that we're not part of some great scheme.
If you believe your time alive is limited to that on Earth then you certainly want to make the most of it!
ME
The most of it ...in what way?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-eustace
I finally found out the difference between these 2 words. They are not the same, even though people link them to go hand in hand.
agnosticism means ignorance, the belief that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
atheisticism is really the belief that there's no God.
That's the difference.... you get it?
I don't know that I would word it that way, the word "ignorance" is such a harsh word. Beside the agnostic person believes that he or she is right. The word I would use is "doubt". The agnostic doubts the existence of God. It's a grey area. Maybe. Maybe not. I believe the Hebrew word is "timshel" meaning "it may be". An atheist has made his/her mind up that God does not exist, but the agnostic is still thinking, leaning towards the "not" camp, but with enough doubt to not go there. I put it like this sometimes: There are three, perhaps four, kinds of believers. Unbelievers--those who choose to believe there is no God. Believers--those who choose to believe in God. Make-believers--those who try to fool people into thinking they believe in God. And doubters--those who are genuinely unsure. :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adelheid
I would say "ignorance" is a harsh word, it has many negative connotations, someone here is bound to take exception to it :)
Emily, I am sorry you have been dealing with depression. Have you read The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon? It was published in 2001, but I think it is still relevant today as one of the most respected books ever written about depression.
I haven't read that, Logos. Thanks for the suggestion! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Logos
Atheism is the lack of a belief in a deity. Agnosticism is the belief that the presence of a deity can neither be proven NOR disproven. At least, that's my take on it. There is therefore some overlap, in which I fit.
It's ironic that, to hear some people tell it, the world is divided into Christians and Blasphemous Heathens (in which case, I have a BHA meeting next weekend). Even more ironic is how it took a Christian to make me a confirmed atheist. To use a mildly bizarre metaphor: I was standing on the Dock of Indecision, dipping my toes in the Sea of Atheism. It was a Christian who put me in concrete overshoes and pushed me off.
It's kind of a long story, but the main point is that a Christian missionary/youth group leader was speaking, and referred to Buddhism/Judaism/Confucianism/Islam/any non-Christian religion as "fairy-tale religions." Of course, this rubbed me the wrong way--what was worse was when, upon finding out I was an atheist, he promptly sought me out afterwards and began questioning my (non-)belief as if I'd entered the room through a smoking hole in the ground.
I came into this thread kind of late, so I apologize if what follows is somewhat haphazard and hackneyed.
Atheism is more a category than a specific form of belief. Trying to ask "What do atheists believe?" is no less ludicrous than asking "What do theists believe?"
What really busts my buttons is when people assume that atheism precludes morality, or worse, when people ask an atheist, "So nothing matters and I can do anything I want, no matter how immoral, and I won't ever be punished?" as if they think that asking the question will provoke instant conversion. One of my favorite phrases to use is, "It's not like I decided to be an atheist so I could sleep in on Sundays after Saturday night orgies"--for some reason, that conveys the desired message quite nicely, if I do say so myself.
Okay, that about does it for me for now. If anyone has any questions about my personal beliefs (and I stress "personal"), please feel free to ask, although I imagine it's somewhat egocentric of me to assume that people will significantly care.
Maybe this sounds rough, but have I not said time and again that the best sermon you preach is how you live and act, and the way you treat others? Attitude counts for a lot. As in sales, presentation counts for a lot. Sharing and caring means more than trying to force things down people's throats. :angel:
Well I became an atheist for the very reason that I would be able to have endless orgies (preferrably with Christian girls) and live an otherwise debauched lifestyle. Also, when you're an atheist you get to be smart and have your own opinions.
I can't tell--is he kidding?
If not, I'm guessing his anthem is "Only the Good Die Young" by Billy Joel.
It is expected that we have disagreements on various issues but please keep these disagreements within the bounds of common courtesy and respect each other's views.
If you find it to hard to do these, please feel free to ignore this section of the Forum.
Hmm...I'm not sure which poster Scheherazade is referring to, but as my post seemed curt in retrospect:
My apologies if my post offended, but I was hoping to make a light-hearted point of referring to the lyrics of the song, which seemed to fit astonishingly well with ChuckBukowski's described lifestyle.
This is the Atheist forum, correct? Of course I cant talk, I probablly posted some less than friendly remarks on the Christianity forum. I like Christians, usually. But Im from the south, our Christians are quick to make derogatory comment about gays, minorities and whoever we happen to be at war with. And you ever notice that Atheists never get mad when someone criticizes their atheistic views, thats becasue they are secure in their beliefs. We only get mad when Christians try to prove their point by pulling some ambiguous bible verse outta their...bible instead of supporting their ideas with facts. Atheist : "I dont think God cares if gays get married". Christians : "And who so ever drinketh from the cup of another man will suffer unto the waves of the river Canan". Atheist : "Oh, I never thought of it that way, I think you're right, pardon me while I blow my freegin brains out". Ok I made up that bible verse, but you get my point.
Um, Mr. Bukowski, you're not only making generalizations about Christians, you're also making generalizations about atheists. That's generally not a good combination.
Whats so wrong with generalizations? If I said , "generally Americans like french fries", would I be wrong? In the south Christians are genreally right leaning and conservative.
The problem is that, in your post, you didn't use "generally"--you simply gave the categorization "Christians" or "Atheists," which has an all-encompassing implication. You say that atheists never get mad when criticized, which I seriously doubt is true. You also suggest slightly that atheists are left-leaning, which not only approaches the political arena but is not without substantial exceptions, myself included.
And I'm almost afraid to ask: were you serious in your motives to become an atheist, as stated in your earlier post?
Yes, thats correct, I became an atheist so I could have orgies with christian women. Its kinda like joining a rock band so you can get chicks. Because we all know that girls love it when you say, "hey baby, I dont believe in God, Im a souless cynical heathen, Ill take you staight to hell." C'mon...are you serious. Being an atheist is way harder than being a Christian in modern society. You know of any self-proclaimed atheist presidents? Or any politicians for that matter? And Im sorry but in a converstaion about Atheism and Christianity how can you not bring up politics, religion and politics are two sides of the same coin. "But the post says....", ya I know what the post says, calm down, I'm not getting into politics, just reality. As far as my generalizations are concerned, If anyone reading this had to place their money on whether or not atheists were generally more left leaning or right leaning, where would you place your money? Generally, I would like to know the answer, but dont bother to respond because I already know.
Well I have never heard of that reason for being a athiest and guess there is nothing wrong with unless your hurt someone's feelings. I find it hard to believe though that a women Christian or not would fall for such a terrible line. No offense intended towards you but you gave the impression women with beliefs are naive when faith or not that is not the case. I felt that people always have the wrong ideals when it comes to the opposite sex. Besides you do not have to be atheist to have a orgies.
Um...I think he established that he was kidding.
Just because it's harder to be an atheist doesn't mean that it's fair to demean the arguments of Christians. Yes, they're ludicrous upon occasion, but in such cases, I find it best to at least try and help the other person understand that any generalizations that are made about atheists (and as I'm sure you probably already know, they are varied and plentiful) are not necessarily founded in reality. I know well enough not to expect to convert anyone by talking about my atheism, and I don't want to. It's against my philosophy to try and qualify myself as absolutely, undeniably right in anything beyond factual basis.
I'd say I'm more agnostic-leaning than atheist because I don't negate the possibility (not probability) of a God existing, but I'd definitely agree with that definition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay
Atheists have many beliefs, they just don't happen to be theistic in nature. I do not believe in any God for the time being because no such entity has proven itself to be real to me, however I do believe the existence of such a God is possible. In addition, I do however respect the beliefs of others who happen to have faith in such an entity. I believe we all have the freedom to choose and that is something we should definitely cherish.
Furthermore, I do not believe (oh, there goes that word again) that one must submit to religious doctrine or tenets in order to be a moral and upstanding person in this society. I've all too often heard from religious people that you need God in your life to be a good person because only the Bible or other religious doctrine can provide you with morals. I think that's not representative of the truth. I've seen religious people as well as atheists say one thing and do another, so being religious doesn't dictate your morality.
Above all else, I believe works, not faith alone, proves one's self to be a good person.
Just my two cents. I did subscribe to Pascal's wager at one point, but I feel that it wasn't an honest acceptance of God so I decided not to subscribe anymore until I was assured that such a God existed. If He is real as He says He is, He will show me the "light".
I'm responding anyway. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ChuckBukowski
Left, my friend, and usually against the death penalty. What did I win? :thumbs_up
I am an atheist and I believe that:
"The good I do is to my credit,
The evil to my shame,
No praise is due to God in heaven,
Nor Lucifer to blame."
And I hold this belief just as strongly as anyone of a religious persuasion holds theirs (and with just as many doubts, I dare say).
An agnostic doesn't believe in God but an atheist believes there is no God - it's an act of faith (believe it or not!)
Actually, an agnostic takes a neutral stance towards the presence of a deity. But yes, I'd say that pretty much sums it up.
I must disagree. Not with what you say but with your implication that this contradicts me, which it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
An agnostic takes a neutral stance on God's existence, agreed - but this is not in contradiction to my point above - the agnostic does not believe - this is the key phrase - , either in God, or in the lack of a God, instead preferring to sit on the fence until such time as a convincing case is made either way. Neutrality on the point of God's reality is incompatible with any belief regarding the subject.
The atheist has been convinced and actively believes, albeit in God's non-existence. My whole point in responding to this thread was the initial premise (backed up by smilies) that any belief on the part of an atheist was laughable. I believe (there's that word again) that you cannot be an atheist without belief, merely an agnostic with pretensions.
You may well have gathered that I have a lower opinion of agnostics than I do any religious group! I hate people that can't make up their minds - lol.
Ehhh...I guess I can agree, but only when they're standing in line in front of me trying to decide on whether to get chicken or fish. Some agnostics might have the right idea in that they do not necessarily try to qualify themselves as absolutely right, which would be one of the first mistakes when debating religion.
...and by far the commonest - lolQuote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
We all doubt. Such is Humanity's lot. We just don't all admit it. Of course, it's easier for an atheist to admit that he may be wrong - there's no fear of DIVINE RETRIBUTION. So perhaps we can forgive the rest for their dogmatism.
...Nah - let's not!!
those who live like animals..
JUST eat....drink.....play....
eat....drink.....play....
and sin for ever ...ignoring Hell..!
What do you mean, "no fear of divine retribution?" If we're wrong, divine retribution is exactly what we end up with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
If you don't believe in a divine being, then how can you be subject to divine retribution? Religion extends no farther than one's mind, and to call something a "religious truth" is merely to find a group with a similar theological belief who concur with each other. Athiests rely on the nonexistence of belief, and collectively they then believe a divine being doesn't exist. Can you have punishment without a punisher?
I am an athiest depending on how you choose to define the term. I do not believe in a religious being. I do, however, believe in something. My dad, however, is a classic athiest.
Well, that's what atheists believe. That's why they're atheists; no point in behaving as if there's a God if you think it's all in your head, is there? People who do believe in God honestly think there is someone there to punish them. And, if they're right, and atheists are actually mistaken, then the souls of athiests may or may not be in real trouble when they die (depending on what sort of guy God happens to be).Quote:
Originally Posted by XXdarkclarityXX
...and that risk is as great through choosing the wrong religion as from choosing none! In fact, any catholic will tell you that all other 'so-called' christians are damned because 'theirs' is the only 'true' faith. You can't follow every religion (and I have yet to come across any that is more convincing than any other) so I prefer to follow none.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinHood3000
In my opinion (and lacking any concrete evidence from a certifiably divine being, that's all we have to go on, a bunch of opinions) there is no reason to believe in anything that we cannot experience with our senses, or which we can deduce from those experiences.
Any deity that seriously wanted us to believe without question would (given his/her/its absolute infallability) provide incontrivertible proof to base that belief on (unless he/she/it is just toying with us, in which case they are guilty of a sick joke and not worthy of praise).
Instead, all we have are a selection of ambiguous, self-contradictory texts, all obviously penned by far less sophisticated and wordly-wise people than ourselves. I expect that when I die, I die. I have no soul, only a brain, and I will use it to analyse everything for as long as I am able, the existence of god included.
If I'm wrong, I will argue the toss with whatever deity I find in the 'next world'. And I will be wanting some pretty good explanations!
Something to add to this as well....it doesn't take a religious person to be a moral person. Do we need a god to tell us we shouldn't kill people, or can we be civil and understand that doing so is not in the best interests of everyone involved? Of course, morality is also just in someone's head...look at all the murderers who have thought that killing was the "right thing to do".
Regarding religion, I equate it to a bottomless cup. Why? A bottomless cup is still empty after you have put everything you have into it. A bottomless cup leaves you with what you started with when you are done with it...nothing. Both of these things I have found true of religion. How many times have people asked theological questions only to be given more questions just because religion cannot be "proven" ? Why can't we prove religion existent? Is it because some god doesn't want us figuring it out, or because we're supposed to be on some "quest for the truth"? If I'm going to go on a quest, I want an end and some sort of tangible answer. "Feeling" the call of a certain god is nothing more than someone convincing themselves that their god is real, and the reason people say they feel peace in doing so isnt because they've been invaded with all-pervasive grace....it's because they've decided to stop rationalizing. Religion is just an intellectual drug that uses the unknown to addict people. Just my thoughts.
...I'm guessing XxDarkClarityxX is an atheist, as well.
It's a result of Catholicism being shoved down my throat as an augmentation to my education...I wasn't always an athiest, but I've turned out to be that way. Too much of a good thing, or should I say SOMETHING, will cause a reversal of the desired effect.