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YesNo - your in depth analysis of the causes for suicide (a term that covers a wide spectrum of methodology and causality) as all being due to someone telling them to do it in a story. . . unbelievable. And I thought cacian was the only delusional one in our midst.
H
Here is a thought I think is worth pointing out and it is this:
why write about complex tragic things about life with such an ease in stories when one knows they are so not easy to talk about or do in real life?
suicide is a tragedy in real life and we all know that if it could be avoided by banning it tomorrow we will. Yet we seem to write about it in such a manner a blaze way perhaps that it does come across as if it was a futile everyday thing which we know it is not.
It is just an observation and I may well be interpreting in this way because there is so much of it in literature. Of course one does what one feels right about and yes it is up to the writer to decide.
Here is a thought I think is worth pointing out and it is this:
why write about complex tragic things about life with such an ease in stories when one knows they are so not easy to talk about or do in real life?
Ummmm...
1. Because artists feel the need to be able to confront issues from life that are complex and not easy to talk about.
2. Because only creating art about that which is easy and pleasant can become tiresome and lacking in drama.
3. Because it is ART and not LIFE.
There are good books and bad books, boring and intriguing ones, but it´s definetely not the fact of dealing with the suicide subject which determines the qualitiy of a book.
If literature -as a form of art- isn´t allowed to visualize the depths of human nature, the things people avoid talking about openly, where is the sense in writing/reading?
Not a very tempting thought...
By the way, is it more reasonable to stay alive than to kill oneself?
If one doesn´t find a reason to rather live than die, suicide seems to be quite sensible and consequent, although it is a catastrophy for the bereaved. No question about that.
Glamorizing suicide (or violence/crime) is quite a different thing. Bad taste. The mere fact of commiting suicide won´t give a character substance.
So you are saying there is no one telling a story to justify the suicides, making them seem glamorous, or giving them a bogus, irrational, self-righteous justification? Then what is causing these people to commit suicide and doing so in a similar way in their respective cultures? What triggers these copy-cats?Quote:
Originally Posted by hillwalker
Regarding cacian, she is not delusional, nor is she a troll.
What is the truth regarding suicide and literature--or language in general?Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
Suicide didn't suddenly come about because someone wrote a story about it. Writing stories in which suicide features is not going to cause an epidemic of suicides any more than writing about vampires suddenly turns everyone who reads such stuff into vampires.
Suicide is a life v death choice - presumably dying is preferable to living in the mind of the person who decides suicide is the only option they have left.
To suggest suicide (presumably from the times of Boudicca, Nero and Van Gogh to Hemingway, Sylvia Plath and Kurt Cobain) is a copy-cat crime motivated by having it written about in 'stories' is a bizarre conclusion to reach. There have been instances where teenagers have entered some kind of suicide pact following on-line glamourisation of such behaviour - but censoring the exploration of the human condition in literature will not suddenly change the human condition.
And for the record, cacian is delusional because she believes a world where Art and Literature are sterilised, bowdlerised and Disneyfied would make our lives more rewarding and meaningful than this dreadful world we currently inhabit where everything is laid open to discussion.
H
Yes, but couldn’t you say that about almost anything? Why focus on such a limited range of religions, such a limited scope of circumstances?Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
Where do those soldiers get the idea that it’s honourable to kill or be killed for the honour / love / glory of their country? Maybe someone told them a story.
Where do those Christians get the idea that it is better to die than renounce their faith? Maybe someone told them a story.
Where do firemen get the idea that it’s right to throw themselves into a burning building to save another person? Maybe someone told them a story.
Where do men get the idea that a girl wearing a short skirt is asking for it? Maybe someone told them a story.
Where do the nationals of one country get the idea that it’s righteous to bomb civilians going about their business in another country, because someone unconnected to them put a bomb in a building? Maybe someone told them a story.
Ad infinitum. And eventually it gets you to wondering: which came first, the belief or the story? And maybe ‘culture’ is merely the summation of a people's stories that most compellingly represent their beliefs? And maybe the story exists not to glorify or glamorise the belief, but merely to lay it bare, to lay it open to scrutiny.
Agreed I think substance and determination is what these characters committing suicide lack. The reason for this is that suicide is a real thing and for it to be dismissed in this way as a fait du jour just because it is a story makes it all the more dismissive of its intricacy. No one should slip away from life in these circumstances because humans are more then capable. Suicide tells the opposite that humans are failing to address such gravity. It is to me unjust to throw suicide at a character just because it is there and we can.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaethe
More thoughts into recovering such character ismore interesting in my views then telling me he or she committed suicide. I feel there is more to a life then ending it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
I'm sure US La La land is filled with enough morons to educate you about the rest of the world. I was told a story where it warned against engaging in discussion with morons because their view isn't relevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
I don't think writers go into a story with an end result of suicide already in mind. At least I wouldn't, I can't speak for everyone. And even if so, that doesn't mean the character would lack substance. Your presuming there's better paths characters can take, other than suicide, which if you feel that way fine. But if you set out for every character to end happy and blissful, then you'll probably lack more substance than the former. Conflict is key to a story: some characters overcome it, some don't. Even in fairy tales, some characters don't end well. Why couldn't Cinderellas step sister's find prince's like her? Why couldn't Gaston survive?
It seems your advocating fairness on the behalf of fictional characters, which is a bigger attack on reality than suicide.
I'm not interested in censoring any story justifying suicide. I prefer to see the story on display so it can be examined. I would call any justification of suicide "delusional", to use your term. That's where I think I agree with what I hear cacian saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by hillwalker
The stories that I am referring to need not be classic literature, but just the narratives that go through the mind of the person trying to justify suicide. Where do these justifications come from? Too many of the sources for these justifications are treated with too much respect.
Yes, it could, but we are talking about suicide here. I only picked a few circumstances that came to mind that had little to do with my personal life. Regarding suicide, the most interesting case for me personally has to do with the elderly or those who are crippled.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
Not all stories are toxic.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
Another good example.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
I think the belief is the story. Stores that open beliefs to scrutiny are better than those that do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
You mentioned stories about whether a girl is asking for it if she wears a short skirt. How do you compare stories justifying rape with stories justifying suicide? I would put them on the same level.
You're over-simplifying this to quite a large degree. It seems that you're suggesting that suicide is written into books out of laziness or as an easy way out of developing a character further. What book have you read in which the author has a minor character up and off him/herself for no reason at all, as though at random, as though an arbitrary act?Quote:
Originally Posted by cacian
Well I am not suggesting a happy and blissful end to each character of course not in life that is not even close let alone prose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman_Raman
What I am trying to say is that instead of giving suicide the heroic upper hand, the justifier of the act, that a character is not able to cope because his or her lover does not want them, I am trying to look at other better justifiable alternatives.
Reality is twisted in stories when it comes to suicide because on a one hand a story copies life harmonies and harrows and on the other hand twists it as if to try and say well I am not sure now so I will throw in the towel and my character get the suicide he or she deserves. To me it comes across as that.
I would rather as a writer conduct endurances with words and instead of a character terminating their lives I would suggest new way outs. A character would resumes life by trying to solve disasters or pains he or she is exposed. This to a substantial benefit is a new story to be written.
By subjecting a character to suicide one has weakened words and in a way advocated assurances that life is nothing but despair. One has also let readers down because one has simply cut someone's life short and that in itself signals the end to a story. From a reader's/writer's point of views this is a clichés and clichés are what they are no longer serving when time is up for them to run out. The other thing is that the reader learns quickly to predict how stories will end. This in itself is tedious. Suicides occurs at the end of the stories and that is predictability. I would not be interested in reading anymore because I can predict what will happen before I even finish the book.
So to a writer this means one has reached their capacity of words teller and have no more surprises to pull of the bag. Suicide is obvious and I the writer more obvious then it.
A writer 's talent is advocated by words of knowledge heroic pacificism intricacy as well as credibility of thoughts but if suicide is one to be had then his or her stories no longer prescribe to longevity. In fact one has closed themselves in so he or she is much rather seek other avenues to get the credit deserved.
There are plenty of books I have read where suicide was thrown it as an act to defy heroism as the only option. It comes across as blasé and that the writer has either given up or cannot predict ways out to the plots they have digged themselves in. It feels as if one has plotted themselves a task where they no longer see how or when to end it so suicide comes in handy . A bit like an exam where does not understand the question so scribbles out whatever in the hope of getting it right but in fact one is showing off lacks of skills in dealing with the question and therefore gets a zero at the end of it. A zero here is compared to a suicide act in a story.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
I personally think it says a lot about a writer's ability to conjure up life expectancies with plausible concepts. It gives perhaps a view on how they would or would not cope if faced themselves with the same dilemmas. This is my opinion and of course you are to disagree with it.