Is there Truth?

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Originally Posted by cacian

Reality seems to drag the idea that it is linked to truth.
I say there is no truth because there is reality. It is either one or the other.
I am real and so whether I am true or not is up to me.

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Respectfully I disagree. They both exist. There is reality and there is truth and lack of truth. Then aside from truth there is the concept of being true which is up to you, eg., are you "true" to your wife? (This may not be how you meant the word "true" but I will use it this way to make my point) If your vows to your wife leads her to expect you to be true to her by not fornicating with other women and you actually do then the objective truth is that you weren't "true" to her. Then if you go to her and tell her "Baby, I've been true to you." You would not be telling the truth. Truth like reality is a discernable thing that exists objectively. Let's say that if you exist then you are "real" and then it would be the truth to say that you are real. So there you have both reality and truth. Expressing your argument during the voir dire of a jury panel may be a good way to quickly get excluded from a jury.

"I think, therefore I exist" -- Rene Descartes. The only thing we know for certain is that we exist. That is the truth. Anything else is subject to misinterpretation, opinion, viewpoint, and indoctrination.

To say that there is no truth is an absolute statement. It is one thing to say that you believe there is no truth, and another thing entirely to say there is no truth.

Without truth, I'd rather die. I would be frightened out of my mind to live in a world where no one believes in it. What you get is moral relativity, where no opinion or belief is better than any other, and only the strong survive. Forget the lame, mentally deficient, women, and children. They would suffer and face death in such a world.

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Originally Posted by papillondemai

Respectfully I disagree. They both exist. There is reality and there is truth and lack of truth.

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to go with this one would think one lives a complicated juxtaposed life.

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Then aside from truth there is the concept of being true which is up to you,

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one is what he or she is and depending on time and experience on may go on changing because that is the nature of man.
he or she is up beat and continuously changing. so I would say there is not true but what there is, is circumstantial.

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eg., are you "true" to your wife? (This may not be how you meant the word "true" but I will use it this way to make my point) If your vows to your wife leads her to expect you to be true to her by not fornicating with other women and you actually do then the objective truth is that you weren't "true" to her. Then if you go to her and tell her "Baby, I've been true to you." You would not be telling the truth.

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yes up to a point. if she does not ask then she won't get an answer, meaning if she has not asked are you having an affair then she won't know whether you are telling here the truth or not. in her eyes you are with her and not with others too. therefore the way you are addressing her is simply a delusion, a different reality you are in from hers.
for the concept of 'true' to be, both parties must ensure that their circumstances are equal and if when they are then there is no need for truth. truth is to counterbalance of wrong but when it does it is no longer wrong. and so it is a catch 22. in this case the wife does not know but the husband does and therefore she is not being lied because she does not know.
two conflicting thoughts.

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Truth like reality is a discernable thing that exists objectively. Let's say that if you exist then you are "real"

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I would say that I am real because I exist. and not the other way. a reality would not be with an existence concept.

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and then it would be the truth to say that you are real. So there you have both reality and truth.

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I respectfully disagree. I have a reality. truth is circumstantial and therefore prone to dissolving as soon as a circumstance is in accordance with the latter.

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Expressing your argument during the voir dire of a jury panel may be a good way to quickly get excluded from a jury.

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interesting. I have never come across a 'voirdire' until now. one is tempted to say it is 'seesay' which means one relies on witness in order to say. hence the 'voir'. but wihout a witness there is no juries. and without a jury there is no saying and without saying there is no judging.
so to express an argument I am not sure I understand. do you mean a jury is in conflict with an other jury about what the opinion is?

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Originally Posted by NedSiegel

"I think, therefore I exist" -- Rene Descartes. The only thing we know for certain is that we exist. That is the truth. Anything else is subject to misinterpretation, opinion, viewpoint, and indoctrination.

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that is not the truth that is reality. there is reality because we exist and not the other way. take reality out of the man and the man does not exist.
the other way round does not work. take the existence out of reality which one can because one dies but does reality goes on existing yes. it does because there is one reality 'that someone has passed away'. this reality is known/confirmed by another existence.

another way:
I think therefore I say.
I say therefore I exist.
I exist therefore I am.
one has to say it first in order to confirm it and in order to confirm it one has to hear it.
to think is silent.
to say is active.

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Originally Posted by Evan Shaw

Hard to say, but probably truth: for instance, the laws of physics were there/true before we started to discover them, ...

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No they were not, physical reality was there, but laws of physics are models, and as with model airplanes they do not exist before someone designs them.

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Hard to say, but probably truth: for instance, the laws of physics were there/true before we started to discover them, ...

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interesting because one thing about physics is that word law that I find almost dictating if not lecturing.
there is no law what there is intention. in other words what is intended is defended.
physics is a collective studies of makes the universe ticks and how it draws upon to stick. in other words physics needs its mathematics to join one line to another without it it means nothing. space is everything and maths is its it. the first time I went to a physics class I thought boredom draw itself to wind me up.
and I so exited from it as quick as I saw it. never looked back.
and so and as mal4mac says we did not discover physics we made it up. the truth is somewhere in between and the need to catch it by all means necessary is what physics does. it is to justify something that is already established a long time ago. time is the biggest rival to physics you can understand why I exited it so not to offend time. time is money physics is economically duped.

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

To say that there is no truth is an absolute statement. It is one thing to say that you believe there is no truth, and another thing entirely to say there is no truth.

Without truth, I'd rather die. I would be frightened out of my mind to live in a world where no one believes in it. What you get is moral relativity, where no opinion or belief is better than any other, and only the strong survive. Forget the lame, mentally deficient, women, and children. They would suffer and face death in such a world.

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ok well here is a question:
do you know better then god?
and if not then why not because you should.
that is to me a question with an answer that provides a reason for it to be asked.
here I did not tell the truth or lied I asked a question and to which the answer is the reason.
there is no wrong or right what there is a purpose a reason.

I'm a little confused about what you are asking.

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

What you get is moral relativity, where no opinion or belief is better than any other, and only the strong survive. Forget the lame, mentally deficient, women, and children. They would suffer and face death in such a world.

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Atheist doctors certainly don't forget the lame or mentally deficient. I don't go about strong-arming the lame, mentally deficient, women, or children. I don't know an atheist who does! You don't need an absolute standard of morality to encourage people to behave decently to each other; you don't need a big sky-daddy, or a guy in a funny hat in Rome, laying down the law. We can make our own laws, and have done so in many countries (not perfectly, absolutely, well, but "very well" in liberal, secular, democracies.)

Most atheists are kind people and care for others. I perfectly acknowledge that. But if someone doesn't have an absolute reason why they should be selfless, they're not obligated to care for the sick and dying and the most vulnerable. That doesn't mean people wouldn't do so without a reason anyway, but what's stopping someone from throwing their mom suffering from dementia in a nursing home when they no longer want to take care of her and they have the money to do so? What answer will they have to face? Why should they take care of her if they're sick and tired of her? Because it's the "nice" thing to do? Try convincing someone with that answer.

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

Most atheists are kind people and care for others. I perfectly acknowledge that. But if someone doesn't have an absolute reason why they should be selfless, they're not obligated to care for the sick and dying and the most vulnerable.

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So what? As long as the doctor does his job I'm happy. I don't need to imagine that there's a sky-god with a big stick ready to smite him if he does something naughty. There are enough social & professional reasons for the doctor to be a good doctor. Are the health services collapsing under the weight of atheist neglect? There's no evidence for that.

Some would argue otherwise...

Most of you should consider what a thread is about before you open your mouth. This thread is about whether or not there is truth.

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Originally Posted by cafolini

Most of you should consider what a thread is about before you open your mouth. This thread is about whether or not there is truth.

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Oh, come on - Fetal Bovine Serum is extracted from bovine fetuses; Horse Serum is extracted from horses, and Calf serum is extracted from calves. If truth didn't exist, where the heck would we have gotten truth serum from?