I think that we should start our adventure with literature from the very beginning. In this way, we could understand better many things.
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I think that we should start our adventure with literature from the very beginning. In this way, we could understand better many things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Deleted. point already made.
Do fellow readers of Old Greek and Roman, find there is some corralation between the term "Barbarian" and "Nigger"? I mean in the journey the word takes. (there really is nothing new in this world.) It began as an onomatopoeia for the sound foreigners made when they spoke :- ba..ba..ba.., but became derogatory, meaning uncivilised and inferior. Then ( as with St Luke's nigga ) it alters slightly again and can mean untamed and strong.
There are other words of a similar ilk, like the biblical "Philistine."
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah_arendt
Yes, I was trying to point out that some people were imposing their recent meaning on the word, while it has a different meaning in Huckleberry Finn. And we especially shouldn't expunge words just because we don't happen to like the words.
Yes, have you read the Enuma Elish in some form? The Gilgamesh Saga is an excellent exanple ot heroic literature, but I think that narrative technique has improved since then, but I can't be sure, because I have never read it in the original.Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah_arendt
Sure, the process is very similar in all slangs, even modern like Warsies and Trekkies.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
Unfortunetaly, I haven`t read it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterL
There's still time. It's only been around for more than 4200 years, and there are a number of related stories in the Gilgamesh Cycle. The earliest known account of the Flood is in there. If you don't like the base original (a free download) , then you might look for Robert Silverberg's version that he put into a single organized novel. (Gilgamesh the King.Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah_arendt
http://manybooks.net/titles/anon1100011000-8.html
http://archive.org/details/audio_poetry_101_2006
and there are others
Do fellow readers of Old Greek and Roman, find there is some corralation between the term "Barbarian" and "Nigger"? I mean in the journey the word takes. (there really is nothing new in this world.) It began as an onomatopoeia for the sound foreigners made when they spoke :- ba..ba..ba.., but became derogatory, meaning uncivilised and inferior. Then ( as with St Luke's nigga ) it alters slightly again and can mean untamed and strong.
You find such evolution of the impact of terms quite frequently in the visual arts. "Gothic" was an insult in the time of Giorgio Vasari. He employed it in a manner meaning "like the Goths"... "Barbaric" and crude. "Baroque, "Rococo", "Impressionism", "Fauvism", "Cubism" etc... were all terms originating with critics intending to denigrate a new direction in art. The terms were rapidly co-opted by those artists that the critics intended to insult, and by today, all the terms are rather neutral... simply denoting a specific style. Currently there is an interesting painter, Odd Nerdrum, who has written several manifestos proudly proclaiming himself as a "Kitsch" painter. His intention is to declare that if that certain questionable aspects of Modernism are "true art" while other more conservative aspects of art are merely "Kitsch"... then he proudly proclaims himself a member of the latter camp.
Thank you very much for the links:)Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterL
You are more than welcome. One of those is just someone reading a few paragraphs from the Enuma Elish. I didn't follow the other link, ut there are copies of translations of it online.Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah_arendt
I will read it when I`ll have more free time:)Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterL
It seems to me that unless you have some understanding of the mores of the time the book/play/treatise was written, you will not fully understand the work.[/QUOTE]
I don't completely agree with that. When reading Hamlet I enjoied the main character pretended craziness as well as his great speeches about life and dead, his acrid or cynical analysis upon his perfidious uncle, Ophelia or the Queen, without having to think in which time that masterpiece was written or even if Shakespeare could have been influenced by Humanism. I enjoy the main text, the juice of their messages contained in brilliant written lines without paying to much attention which English King held the scepter between fifteenth and sisteenth centuries and what kind of wars he put up.
Actually, the real events are the same all the time: good times, bad times, crisis in each and every area, recuperation, splendorous times and falling again. The same items, the same paths, with arrows or gun pistols, with plough or tractors, using firewood to heat the water or gas from the pipes. Adding some extra information you may know, the New Critics and New Criticism School focused on the text of a work of literature and tried to exclude the reader's response, the author's intention, historical and cultural contexts, and moralistic bias from their analysis. The fact is the fortune not to be lack of cultural references which ennobles us and enlarges our minds by the grace of this old literarian documents.
Well, now I can read more than ever, what makes me shout for joy. Yes, I read 'Odyssey' by Homer two months ago and I was delighted. I am reading Shakespeare by the time. That will be my fifth drama after 'Hamle't, 'The Tempest', 'MacBeth', 'Midsummer Night's Dream' and, at the moment a comedy, 'Twelth Night'. This English writter has meant a change in my taste and my point of view in literature, definitely. It's a pleasure to read it, to enjoy every line of his characters which in most cases can be taken as quotes, aphorisms and real pearls of wisdom. Answering your last question, I think the reader could find all the ideas contained and well explained through all the figures of speech you wish. Yes, it's great to see things when getting on the back of those giants.Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah_arendt
I don't completely agree with that. When reading Hamlet I enjoied the main character pretended craziness as well as his great speeches about life and dead, his acrid or cynical analysis upon his perfidious uncle, Ophelia or the Queen, without having to think in which time that masterpiece was written or even if Shakespeare could have been influenced by Humanism. I enjoy the main text, the juice of their messages contained in brilliant written lines without paying to much attention which English King held the scepter between fifteenth and sisteenth centuries and what kind of wars he put up.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayat
Actually, the real events are the same all the time: good times, bad times, crisis in each and every area, recuperation, splendorous times and falling again. The same items, the same paths, with arrows or gun pistols, with plough or tractors, using firewood to heat the water or gas from the pipes. Adding some extra information you may know, the New Critics and New Criticism School focused on the text of a work of literature and tried to exclude the reader's response, the author's intention, historical and cultural contexts, and moralistic bias from their analysis. The fact is the fortune not to be lack of cultural references which ennobles us and enlarges our minds by the grace of this old literarian documents.[/QUOTE]
I agree that you don`t have to know everything about the epoch to understand the work. However sometimes it`s worth finding some information about the context. Of course, you can read without any problems "Macbeth" but after reading a little bit about the background, you can find more details.
U. Eco developped his idea of the open work and it seems to be very interesting. The text should the most important. Nevertheless, sometimes critics try to find/ create things which aren`t present in the work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayat
I am reading now "Lord of the Rings" with great pleasure. Following my husband`s advice, I don`t read more than 2-3 pages a day, making a ritual of this moment and trying to find as more as I can in the text.
In my readings I once read a book simply titled "The Greeks" and after reading it I retained ,or got the impression that the word Barbarian simply meant,,, NOT GREEK?? does anyone else have that meaning?????