Favorite Modern/Living/Non-English Poet

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Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman

I admitted several times that it was valid, I merely didn't feel it was reasonable to accept its propositions as true.

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This is precisely what I'm talking about. You're trying to obscure the disagreement by conceding a point that I'm not making. I wasn't simply making the point that the Kalam was valid. I was making the point that someone ignorant of logical validity, most logical fallacies, how to construct a proper statement, etc. is, in no way, qualified to make pronouncements on ANY argument.

You see, the real concession you need to make is that you cannot rightly say the Kalam has serious flaws because we have demonstrated that you do not possess the requisite capacities to render such a judgment. For Chrissake, you thought metaphysical statements were absurd, which means you're completely unaware that the major development in philosophy in the last hundred years was the realization that metaphysics was absolutely necessary. You tried to cover this up by saying I was using some old or antique definition, but I was using the modern definition! You don't even know what metaphysics is, and yet you pretend to be qualified to make pronouncements on a metaphysical argument that is currently being examined in scholarly journals.

You haven't the first clue about how to construct an argument, and when you actually try, you commit the most elementary blunder of impeaching the reasonable standards that allow you to make ANY argument, which is the sort of stereotypical blunder committed by people who haven't a clue about logic. Yet you propose to know what constitutes a good argument. Hilarious!

If you would just concede the point, the argument would be over.

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Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman

Oh, and, by the way, I understood perfectly well what J meant by "intellectual" as he stated it quite clearly the minute the confusion arose, the same way I stated quite clearly that's not what I meant by it. We understand each other. No harm, no foul; unlike you who wants to make a mountain out of a molehill.

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LOL! Except when you accused J of bringing up intellectual in the first place, and he had to point out that was a lie. I don't think J is being as agreeable are you pretend. I think J understands that you're wrong but doesn't want to pursue it.

And they've hijacked another thread with their petty bickering! Bravo.

Maybe it's time you guys take this to PMs. I doubt anyone reads, nor cares, about the same points and insults you've been rehashing for a couple weeks now.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

And they've hijacked another thread with their petty bickering! Bravo.

Maybe it's time you guys take this to PMs. I doubt anyone reads, nor cares, about the same points and insults you've been rehashing for a couple weeks now.

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Look, M, I understand your frustration; I really do. I also understand that I am a large part of that frustration. It is, of course, inappropriate for me to get into a fight in a public space. I get it.

I just get frustrated that there can't be any resolution to any disagreement between me and Morph. Perhaps we are equally to blame. I am just really frustrated with Morpheus in general, which of course, does not rescue me from the error. I feel like the only way to end the discussion is to say "You're right Morpheus," and the problem is that I think he is demonstrably wrong. Perhaps that doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by stuntpickle

Look, M, I understand your frustration; I really do. I also understand that I am a large part of that frustration. It is, of course, inappropriate for me to get into a fight in a public space. I get it.

I just get frustrated that there can't be any resolution to any disagreement between me and Morph. Perhaps we are equally to blame. I am just really frustrated with Morpheus in general, which of course, does not rescue me from the error. I feel like the only way to end the discussion is to say "You're right Morpheus," and the problem is that I think he is demonstrably wrong. Perhaps that doesn't matter.

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Oh, I get it. Trust me. I've been in such arguments . . . probably with you, even. Though I don't think I've ever been in one as verbose as this, or the other, you're in with Morpheus. Frankly, I don't know how you two keep going. It's exhausting just reading it, which is why I've stopped.

I'll make this easier, Stunt: I'm not going to reply to your last post since none of it has to do with the subject of this thread. In my last post I made several points directly related to the topic concerning canons, modern poets, snobbery, and all of the issues you raised in regard to this thread. If you want to continue, you can address those relevant points, rather than those that referred to other topics on other threads.

I do find it humorous, though, that in my post of around 1000 words you pick the 80 that just happen to have nothing to do with this thread to respond to!

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Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman

I'll make this easier, Stunt: I'm not going to reply to your last post since none of it has to do with the subject of this thread. In my last post I made several points directly related to the topic concerning canons, modern poets, snobbery, and all of the issues you raised in regard to this thread. If you want to continue, you can address those relevant points, rather than those that referred to other topics on other threads.

I do find it humorous, though, that in my post of around 1000 words you pick the 80 that just happen to have nothing to do with this thread to respond to!

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You have missed the point of the post. I did not mean simply to respond about one little thing. I was pointing out what seemed to be a problem in discussing anything with you. If I plainly demonstrate the error of one of your statements, you simply ignore it, deny it, move the goalposts or change the subject. I wasn't strictly addressing the validity of the Kalam, but rather your fundamental incapacity to admit an error. This relates not only to one discussion we've had, but to all of them.

And, of course, you reply in typical Morpheus fashion. It seems to me that you care not a bit about the actual subject, but simply about being right about something. This discussion doesn't seem to me to be about the Kalam or modern poets, but whether Morpheus is right.

Well, I admitted an error in the other thread. The reason I ignore so much of your posts, Stunt, is that so often you go off on these completely unrelated tangents. My ignoring the tangents is my attempts to try and keep the discussions focused and on topic. Since this thread is about modern poets, I'm trying to limit the discussion to that--not the Kalam, not my supposed logical errors, not mine and J's debate, not me being right. If I responded to every point made in just your last post this thread would spiral out of control. I'm trying to prevent that.

So, modern poets... GO!

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Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman

Well, I admitted an error in the other thread. The reason I ignore so much of your posts, Stunt, is that so often you go off on these completely unrelated tangents. My ignoring the tangents is my attempts to try and keep the discussions focused and on topic. Since this thread is about modern poets, I'm trying to limit the discussion to that--not the Kalam, not my supposed logical errors, not mine and J's debate, not me being right. If I responded to every point made in just your last post this thread would spiral out of control. I'm trying to prevent that.

So, modern poets... GO!

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I really have little interest in having another discussion with you for the above described reasons. A debate with you over topic X is simply a debate with you over you.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

And they've hijacked another thread with their petty bickering! Bravo.

Maybe it's time you guys take this to PMs. I doubt anyone reads, nor cares, about the same points and insults you've been rehashing for a couple weeks now.

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I agree completely.

1. Your favorite 20th century poet

A hard one for me. Maybe Dylan Thomas or Robert Frost

2. Your favorite 20th century poem

Too difficult. At the moment, I'm caught between Edna St. Vincent Millay's Sonnet 42 'What lips my lips have kissed', Henry Reed's 'Naming of Parts' and 'Prayer Before Birth' by Louis Macneice for a choice of favorite.

3. Your favorite living poet

Don't really have one. I like New Zealand's Michael Harlow and David Eggleton. I also like Mark Strand, Wendy Cope and Simon Armitage, and many others too.

4. Your favorite poem by a living poet

Maybe 'Gooseberry Season' by Simon Armitage.. or 'Not for Human Consumption' by David Eggleton.

5. Your favorite non-Anglo poet

Probably Li Bai.

6. Your favorite non-Anglo poem

I like Li Bai's poem on drinking alone with the moon and his shadow: http://clatterymachinery.wordpress.c...2-translators/

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Originally Posted by stuntpickle

A debate with you over topic X is simply a debate with you over you.

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Says you. ;)

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Ariano Suassuna or Manoel de Barros

Brazilian? Portuguese? Unfortunately, contemporary poetry outside the languages which we can read, is quite limited in terms of accessibility. Only a few major poets from contemporary France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Russia, Brazil, Argentina, etc... find their way into descent translations.

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Unfortunately there are still plenty of renowned poets not yet translated into English ... as the magnificent Syrian poet Adonis 2nd place after the last Nobel Prize poetry winner T.Transtrommer.
He (Adonis) is an expert in turning water into wine that is doing wonders despite the simplicity of his vocabulary...so if you know some french...

As for portuguese ( or portuguese-Brazilian - there is no such thing as "Brazilian") there are 250 million people speaking it.

Adonis (sometimes spelled Adunis) and Transtrommer are both accessible in English translations. I have come across both poets on any number of occasions.

By the term "Brazilian" I was referring to the nationality ("brasileiros" according to Wiki) and not the language. Portuguese (Brazilian or otherwise) seems to be one of the least translated languages into English... although one would suspect this will change over time with the growing importance of Latin-America in the US.

StLukesguild:"“although one would suspect this will change over time with the growing importance of Latin-America in the US.”


God hears you- as we say in my country. And why not start right away with my almost painful* translation of “I CANNOT POSTPONE LOVE” from Antonio Ramos Rosa, one of the icons of contemporary Portuguese poetry (recently deceased):
(*So many pirouettes between Portuguese, English & French!)

I can not postpone love for another century
I cannot
even if the cry dies in my throat
even if hate burns explodes crackles
under gray mountains
and gray mountains
I can not postpone this embrace
This double-edged blade of love and hate
I can not postpone anything
even if the night weighs centuries on my shoulders
even if the dawn is late and undecided
I cannot postpone my life to another century
nor my love
nor my cry for release

no I can not postpone my heart

I've recently come across Transtromer in English translation in APR and Poetry and I agree that he seems to be a very good poet. What I read was very much a throwback to the Romantics without the formal verse.

I came across Transtrommer and Adunis pratically at the same moment and after some deliberation I decided to deepen Adonis instead of T.T. ...perhaps because of the presence of the Arabs (10th - 11th century) in my country?

And can I ask you what's your opinion about Antonio Ramos Rosa poem ?

All the best