A discourse on Atheism (not a religious debate)

[QUOTE=Mutatis-Mutandi;1096345]I'll answer by saying what I mean when I say I'm an atheist. I don't believe there is a God. This doesn't mean I don't think it's possible--I just don't know, and from what I've seen, I'm inclined to think there is no God. I used to say I'm agnostic (and sometimes still do because it seems so much less pot-stirring), but that really isn't right. It is partly reactionary, I guess, since I tried to believe in God and couldn't. [QUOTE]

Yes, I did this too! I also said I was agnostic for precisely that reason, although now I refuse to participate in religious discussions with religious people (in person). I also tried to believe in God but could not, so I was not honest with myself. I just cannot help it- I just don't believe it. And I don't think I can just believe in some things about a religion and not the whole of it.
I also do not join any athiest groups or have discussions on athiesim. It is just what I think on my own, and the conclusions I have come to on my own.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

Most people are atheists with respect to specific Gods. If none come to mind, try Zeus. More earnestly, Christians are atheists with respect to Allah. Jews and Muslims are atheists with respect to Jesus. Other people are atheists with respect to all three of the Judeo-Christo-Islamic Gods.

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I don't think this is entirely true. Christians, Jews and Muslims all have the same God. Allah is the arabic word for God-just a different language! Any muslims out there can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

The negatives FAR outweigh the positives, and those positives (hospitals for example) have been provided via secular methods such as government or charity far more often than religion.

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I don't know about that- the only thing that helped black african slaves in America was the church, certainly not the government at the time of slavery.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Then God help us all.
Do you think that your attitude is a positive response to the atrocities done by religion? You repay evil with evil. Is that what we should expect from atheists?

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Absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

I agree. In my opinion fundamentalist Christianity is one the greatest threats to world peace.

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Then I really hope that you think that Muslim fundamentalism-terrorist- fanaticism is THE greatest threat to world peace.

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Originally Posted by stuntpickle

The great beauty of Christianity is that it is about a God who has impossible demands for humanity and an impossible love for it, and He can only reconcile these things by punishing himself. It's a wonderful tragedy.

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This here is why I will never be a Christian. The trinity is a logical catastrophe. If there is a father and a son then there are two, not one. Its polytheism and I doubt polytheism can be reconciled with the old testament. I've heard highly intelligent Christians articulate explanations and none of them came close to anything satisfactory. For this reason, even if I were to miraculously surmount the Everest of my disbelief, I'd turn to Islam, not Christianity.

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Originally Posted by KCurtis

I don't know about that- the only thing that helped black african slaves in America was the church, certainly not the government at the time of slavery.

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Actually I believe that one of the main influences was, at the time, pressure from trading partners overseas. So oddly enough slavery in America was abolished in large part because of Europe.

I know about one religious guy during the years leading up of the American civil war who did organize and lead violent action against slavery and he was a catalyst, but still - wasn't the South pretty religious too? The fact that he was religious was consequential since church leaders = community leaders in those days, you really can't give religion the credit for freeing American slaves.

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Originally Posted by KCurtis

I don't think this is entirely true. Christians, Jews and Muslims all have the same God. Allah is the arabic word for God-just a different language! Any muslims out there can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

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You may be right. The orthodox language, metaphors and traditions in which each these approaches to God is expressed might be the only real difference.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

Actually I believe that one of the main influences was, at the time, pressure from trading partners overseas. So oddly enough slavery in America was abolished in large part because of Europe.

I know about one religious guy during the years leading up of the American civil war who did organize and lead violent action against slavery and he was a catalyst, but still - wasn't the South pretty religious too? The fact that he was religious was consequential since church leaders = community leaders in those days, you really can't give religion the credit for freeing American slaves.

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The Quakers were one of the first religious groups involved in the abolition of slavery and played a large role in the abolitionist movement. There was other prominent religious leaders like John Rankin and many others who took a religious moral stance against slavery and played prominent roles in the abolitionist movement. Religious opposition to slavery on moral grounds played a clear and important role in the abolitionist movement. But, of course, the south justified their slavery on religious grounds too. So it also played an important role in justifying the slavery in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KCurtis

I don't think this is entirely true. Christians, Jews and Muslims all have the same God. Allah is the arabic word for God-just a different language! Any muslims out there can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think I am.

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As a Christian, I will speak for the God that I serve. I do NOT serve the God of the muslims. Christianity serves a God that is part of a trinity Godhead that includes Jesus Christ as deity, as well as the Holy Spirit. You cannot separate them out to an equivalent to being allah.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

As a Christian, I will speak for the God that I serve. I do NOT serve the God of the muslims. Christianity serves a God that is part of a trinity Godhead that includes Jesus Christ as deity, as well as the Holy Spirit. You cannot separate them out to an equivalent to being allah.

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I never thought of it that way. I suppose you could say then that the Christian god is distinct from Allah. But Allah is still synonymous with Yahweh, which is also the Christian god. Very confusing.

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

This here is why I will never be a Christian. The trinity is a logical catastrophe. If there is a father and a son then there are two, not one. Its polytheism and I doubt polytheism can be reconciled with the old testament. I've heard highly intelligent Christians articulate explanations and none of them came close to anything satisfactory. For this reason, even if I were to miraculously surmount the Everest of my disbelief, I'd turn to Islam, not Christianity.

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I can never take people's criticism of the Trinity seriously. The idea that it's just entirely incoherent is laughable. The average child understands it. Does the fact that matter can exist in different forms--solid, gas, liquid--completely bewilder you? Does the fact that you, yourself, have different aspects of your person give you a headache? Jesus was the Logos, which Philo used to mean not "word", but "mind". Does the fact that the mind of God was put into a mortal body seem totally incomprehensible to you? Does the division of being into mind/body/spirit seem entirely outlandish?

As for conquering your disbelief and joining Islam, I would recommend you be absolutely sure about such a decision since the penalty for changing your mind is death.

I never gave credit to religion and the church for freeing American slaves! I know my history. The Church at that time, in part, helped slaves escape through the underground railroad, (yeah, I know it's not a railroad underground), helped hide them, etc. Ask black Americans what they think about southern churches during the civil rights movement too.
And if it were not for the Anglican Church in South Africa during apartheid, more black south Africans would have been killed.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

Actually I believe that one of the main influences was, at the time, pressure from trading partners overseas. So oddly enough slavery in America was abolished in large part because of Europe.

I know about one religious guy during the years leading up of the American civil war who did organize and lead violent action against slavery and he was a catalyst, but still - wasn't the South pretty religious too? The fact that he was religious was consequential since church leaders = community leaders in those days, you really can't give religion the credit for freeing American slaves.

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Originally Posted by KCurtis
I don't know about that- the only thing that helped black african slaves in America was the church, certainly not the government at the time of slavery.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

As a Christian, I will speak for the God that I serve. I do NOT serve the God of the muslims. Christianity serves a God that is part of a trinity Godhead that includes Jesus Christ as deity, as well as the Holy Spirit. You cannot separate them out to an equivalent to being allah.

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You are wrong. Allah is the Arabic word for God, plain and simple. Religious prejudice is separate from this- look in an Arabic dictionary.

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Originally Posted by stuntpickle

I can never take people's criticism of the Trinity seriously. The idea that it's just entirely incoherent is laughable. The average child understands it. Does the fact that matter can exist in different forms--solid, gas, liquid--completely bewilder you? Does the fact that you, yourself, have different aspects of your person give you a headache? Jesus was the Logos, which Philo used to mean not "word", but "mind". Does the fact that the mind of God was put into a mortal body seem totally incomprehensible to you? Does the division of being into mind/body/spirit seem entirely outlandish?

As for conquering your disbelief and joining Islam, I would recommend you be absolutely sure about such a decision since the penalty for changing your mind is death.

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matter existing in different forms doesn't bewilder me. And, for the average muslim, changing ones mind does not equal a penalty of death. That is only for radical Islam.