you also never know when you are annoying the little seeds to death.
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you also never know when you are annoying the little seeds to death.
Ok, little seed, you obviously have no interest in sincerely studing the Bible because you've said nothing constructive at all. So, what are you doing here except annoying those of us who would like to have a discussion?
Ok...let me get this straight...you think that we have to worship in church the traditional style of worship. I see your point of veiw and this is actually a continual debate amougst Christian churches. My church (i play in the church band and my dad is are worship leader) we play a mixture of contemp. music and traditional hymns. We believe that some of the contemp stuff has a powerful message and a strong worship power to them. Check out Michael W. Smith and his worship album. Also see Avalon and their song The Glory. What about 4 Him and Mercy Me. They both have worship albums out. They all have powerful messages and meanings. Joel Engel is the one of the best praise and worship artists (in my opinion) out there. No where in the Bible does it say that a person must sing the old traditional hymns inorder to worship God. In that matter does a person have to SING why not PLAY. I worship when i play my flute. We play beautiful songs and i get caught up with the Spirit of God moving through me and my playing. But does that condemn me?! I don't really think so.
Think about this...you cited earlier that the pharacies were condemned b/c they didn't worship the way Jesus thought was acceptable. He did that b/c they had forgoten the reason why they worshiped not how. They "worshiped" b/c they wanted the people of Isael to see that they were great in God's eyes, but that was not the case. They worshiped becuase they thought they were gaining something for themselves and Jesus was rebuking them because of their intentions behind the worship. Thier heart was not in it.
It really doen't matter how you worship but the reason behind your worship. If you are glorifying God through the songs that Reliant K sings or though Amazing Grace, I don't think God really cares...as long as you are worshiping, loving and glorifying him. Haven't you heard that 'in all things i do i do for the glory of God?' If you live your life with the standard that you are living for the glory of God then you are worshiping Him through your actions/life. You are not at a church singing As the Deer, but you are living your life for God. Worship comes in several different forms...not just one single right form. So did the slaves during the Civil War...when they sang songs to God while they worked in the fields...were they wrong? They couldn't go to church but they worshiped and praised God anyway. The man who wrote Amazing Grace...he was on a ship in a storm before he turned to Christ. He wrote the song/poem when he was a missionary in Africa. He WORSHIPED while he wrote it. Now that is a hymnal...the song wasn't around when Jesus was on the earth nor was it around when the Bible was written! Yet it is still considered to be one of the greatest hymnals of our time. Michael W. Smith and his wife wrote songs that are now considered to be great hymnals...yet he is a contemp. Christian recording artist.
I see what you are getting at and i see where you are coming from. I do believe that the churches are trying to appease the thier public by creating different services for the different styles of worship. I think that may not be the wisest desision in the world but that is my opinion. We have a drum set and we sing old hymn music. Is that wrong? At my church we combine the two into one and i like that much better. Sometimes i wonder if the mega churches are just trying to get more members, appease them and look good, than to actually bring people to Christ. Like i said earlier...this is an issue that is bouncing around the Christian community and thier churches...i think it is more what your style of worship is and how you want to present it to God. IF YOUR HEART IS IN YOUR WORSHIP THAN GOD IS GLORIFIED. ISN'T THAT WHAT REALLY MATTERS?!
I'm not going to beat a dead horse about the instruments in worship. I think I've pretty well covered that. Somewhere else here, I talked about Christian bands. There really is nothing wrong with them so long as it's kept out of a worship service. Same with anyone playing and instrument at all. I play a harp and can play all sorts of hymns, but I usually play at weddings, funerals, restaurants, dinner parties, nursing homes, etc... I never play in a worship service of any kind.
The Bible said to sing in "songs, hymns, and spiritual songs" If someone wrote a song that was biblically accurate 2 months ago, there is no reason not to sing it in a worship service. It's a spiritual song.
It isn't what I think that's important, it what's pleasing to God. I'm not sure what everyone keeps describing as 'tradition worship' is. I simply go by what's been given to me in the Bible.Quote:
Ok...let me get this straight...you think that we have to worship in church the traditional style of worship.
I had a hard time figuring out the point of this statement, but I think that I can help by quoting this verse. If I missed your point please tell me. ;)Quote:
Think about this...you cited earlier that the pharacies were condemned b/c they didn't worship the way Jesus thought was acceptable. He did that b/c they had forgoten the reason why they worshiped not how. They "worshiped" b/c they wanted the people of Isael to see that they were great in God's eyes, but that was not the case. They worshiped becuase they thought they were gaining something for themselves and Jesus was rebuking them because of their intentions behind the worship. Thier heart was not in it.
Matthew 23:5-12
"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
No Shea, you are wrong. I have every interest in studying the Bible.
"Ok, little seed, you obviously have no interest in sincerely studing the Bible because you've said nothing constructive at all. So, what are you doing here except annoying those of us who would like to have a discussion?"
This topic is stupid and irrelevant. I really doubt that God cares if you use contemporary music in a worship service. You are taking a bunch of verses that don't support your point, quoting them, and then arguing until someone agrees with you. As long as they are worshiping God, and not trying to appear holy, they have accomplished the purpose of the worship service.
And Shea... honestly... next time you quote something.... please please please let it support your POINT!
In fact, you have spoken so much, I have lost track of your point. Do you have one? If so, could you spell it out for me?
Ok..... Thank you for asking that question. I have no idea how to word things any different to help you understand, so I'll try to single it out (though I've repeated it many times). My point is to study the Bible and apply the truths to your life!!! Everything a christian needs for salvation is in there!! Spirtual growth, delight in God, rules for worship, rules for life, how to evangelize, the structure of the Lord's church,... EVERYTHING!!! There is no need to improve on God's Word! But I see people doing it all the time by adding traditions from man. How can someone say they follow God but then does something contrary to what He told us to do according to the words of Christ and the apostles!
By the way, I'm sorry about the "little seed" thing. I didn't mean to get snippy, :oops: I was just frustrated because I didn't know how to make things any clearer. Does this general point help or do you want me to go verse by verse to show how their supported by what I've said?
Shea- don't be sorry for being snippy... I started it. :rolleyes: anyways... I never would have guessed that is what your point is... based on your first post... plus... I don't remember you talking about that before now, but thx for clearing things up for the curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shea
No problem! I'm glad that helped! :D I thought that was an understood thing. Oh, well! I'm still getting used to Bible study through this medium! :rolleyes:
well i'm glad you guys are not tearing eachother's necks out. Sorry...i've been on a band trip for the weekend so i've been wondering what has been going on here. 8) Anyway, you said that everything is in the Bible. I agree, everything Christians need is in the Bible. And yes i do agree that humans/man are adding things to make "tradition" (IE: the Catholic Church...errr...let me rephrase that...some if not most Catholic Churches) Don't kill me! Hear me out. Man's nature is to be repetitive and very mithotical (that is probally how you don't spell it oh well, i'm a horrorable speller anyway :-? ) Ok...we like structure. Think back to when you were in high school... :o You found out where your classes were and then you would find the best path way down the halls to get to them. You would usually do this in the first week or so, of school. Then, from then on you would take that same route for the rest of the year. Don't you do something simular when driving to a friend's house or to work? (pretend there are no traffic back-ups). You are being mithotical. Man/Humans are like that. Tradition is using the same concept. I don't know if that made any sense to you...if it didn't i'm sorry i have no brain functions b/c of my band trip...anyway...i'll stop rambling...
You have to remember that we are not perfect. We can't follow the Bible word for word...we can try and some ppl are better at it than others are, but we are all falty...that's why we have Jesus.
About the music thingy in church...remember that David sang hymns with his stringed instrument. They didn't have churches like we do today but God looked down upon David with love and honor. He loved the songs and hymns that David wrote and sang with his instrument. Also, tamberings, flutes and trumpets are mentioned as instruments of praise. (I'm sorry, i don't remember exactly where but i do remember it!) If the Bible sais that those insturments can be used as a praise and worship tool...then why not use it? So are you saying that we can play our instruments in our homes (or elsewhere) while we worship and not in church? The church is the people not the building...and i know God emphasizes that in the Bible. A building is nothing. I went to a local highschool for awhile inorder to attend church. A highschool does not have pews nor hymnals but the people know the songs and the people are the ones worshiping. That is what a church is...so we can't worship with instruments? We are the church...?
Now please remember...i'm just telling you my POV and my side of the 'argument'. Don't get mad...its what i think...and you are entitled to your own opinion...i respect that.
And I do respect your opinion Chardata, (the word your looking for is methodical). It is in man's nature to be methodical and have a structure. You'll find that the structure is in the Bible. I listed those verses when I was talking to 'Rosebud' (I hope she's Ok, she seem to have vanished. :( )
We aren't perfect, but we are commanded to be diligent and hold fast to God's word. We do have Jesus to save us from condemnation because we are fawlty, but its a two way street.Quote:
Which brings me to why I entered this forum today. You asked me to post an order of worship as described in the Bible. The first century church had 5 main areas of worship:
1. The Lord's Supper.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
2. Praying.
Acts 2:42-They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
3. Singing. (as previously quoted)
Colossians 3:16-Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
Ephesians 5:19-Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
4. Preaching.
Acts 20:7-On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
1 Timothy 4:11-Command and teach these things.
2 Timothy 4:2-Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
5. Giving.
1 Corinthinans 16:2-On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
We are also commanded to attend.
Hebrews 10:25-Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
The order in which these things take place makes no difference as long as they are all there for Sunday- the first day of the week. At the particular congregation where I worship, we first have a sort of call to attention and then a welcome to all the visitors along with the announcments. Then worship begins with usually 2 songs and then an opening prayer. We then sing another song in which the word help prepare our minds for the Lord's supper. 6 men then will go up to the table that we have prepared, and one will say some words to also help get our minds ready to take the unleavened bread.
1 Corinthians 11:27-29
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
We have another prayer and then the bread is distributed among the christians. The men then go back up and have another prayer for the "fruit of the vine"- we use grape juice. After that is distributed, we then take up a collection. (no titheing)
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
Then a member from the congregation will then go up to read a passage of scripture that partains to the sermon for that day. After that one of the men will preach and then there is an invitation for baptism along with another song.
Acts 2: 37-41
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Then we have a closing prayer.
John 12:47-50
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Note verse 50. If we do something contrary to what God commands in the Bible, then how do we know that we are saved? I don't want to "scare" anyone to Christ, I just want truth to be known.
This is something else that I talked about early on too. All the commands that were given in the OT no longer apply.Quote:
About the music thingy in church...remember that David sang hymns with his stringed instrument. They didn't have churches like we do today but God looked down upon David with love and honor. He loved the songs and hymns that David wrote and sang with his instrument. Also, tamberings, flutes and trumpets are mentioned as instruments of praise. (I'm sorry, i don't remember exactly where but i do remember it!) If the Bible sais that those insturments can be used as a praise and worship tool...then why not use it? So are you saying that we can play our instruments in our homes (or elsewhere) while we worship and not in church? The church is the people not the building...and i know God emphasizes that in the Bible. A building is nothing. I went to a local highschool for awhile inorder to attend church. A highschool does not have pews nor hymnals but the people know the songs and the people are the ones worshiping. That is what a church is...so we can't worship with instruments? We are the church...?
Romans 7:1-6
Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Actually, if you could please read more of the previous posts on this topic, that would really cut this one shorter. ;) But I think that your mistaking the assembly with the church as people. As christians, we're commanded to have christian lives.
Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Our very lives are a sort of "worship" to God, but we do have commands from Him considering the assembly (as afore mentioned) You're absolutely right though about the church not being the building, but the assembly of the church is actually what is talked about when we talk about a worship service.
Of course I'm not going to get mad. I'm still getting used to talking to people this way. I'd rather not call this an 'arguement', but more of a discussion designed for learning. Because I'm learning from everyone here, just as I hope your learning from me! :)Quote:
Now please remember...i'm just telling you my POV and my side of the 'argument'. Don't get mad...its what i think...and you are entitled to your own opinion...i respect that.
I see where you are comming from. I think you missunderstood me. The congrigation of ppl IN a church BUILDING is important inorder to learn...life long lessons, Christian lessons, and to learn from God. The ppl who attend the congrigation make up the church. I still stand by my statement: a building is a building and can go nor do anything more. Do you remember that God said he would gather His church up into the clouds. I don't think he's going to uproot the foundation to all the churches in the world. 8) Anyway, i'll talk more...but this is the jist of everything. I'll say more later...maybe after school one day... :-?
Hmm..., I think you misunderstood me too. We can have the assembly where ever we want, the building makes no difference. I once went to a worship service in a Grange Hall. My point is the Bible is specific about what is to take place in a worship service.
Ok...i see know. But like i said in my LB post...some things are open to interpritation...This is your view on this topic and i have my own. We are both obviously hard-headed and stuborn in our views so i don't think we will reach an agreement...so i'm making a neutral agreement...we both have our diff. views and that is that...respect them and move on.
I'm sorry that you said that. :( My goal has been to try and show how the Bible is very specific about many things and point of view or interpretation make no difference. Oh well, I guess I'll get better at it as I gain more experience.
well...i just got tired. Anyway, i don't agree with you and we aren't getting anywhere!!! So...i hope you see where i'm comming from. Don't forget i have school work to worry about on top of everything else. So...i come here for a break off of school work...i like debating but not after working for class. :P Get what i'm saying?! I hope so. I still respect you're POV! 8)