Classics that aren't Boring

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Hmm, coming back to this, Stephen Crane's The Red Badge of Courage might work for high school sophomores as well. It's fairly short, and deals with a character somewhat close to them in age.

I'm not sure what Americans teach in high school, in Canada we had practically no American literature in high school except for Arthur Miller.

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Pip!! Please!! No!!! I was forced to read The Red Badge of Courage in three different classes from Middle-School through high-school... each time followed by in-depth discussions on war led by young teachers who had all probably attended college during the Vietnam War years. I quite like Crane... but doubt I'll ever be able to bring myself to read that book again. Why not Ambrose Bierce' An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge or Chickamauga and some of Melville's Civil War poems and Whitman's When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd?

Perhaps these wouldn't be appropriate for your students, but for yourself...

Nathanael West- Miss Lonelyhearts
Gore Vidal- Myra Breckenridge
Flannery O'Connor- A Good Man Is Hard to Find, The Artificial Nigger, Good Country People, A Late Encounter with the Enemy, Revelation, etc...
Theophile Gautier- Mademoiselle de Maupin, The Mummy's Foot, Clarimonde: Le Morte Amoureuse, One of Cleopatra's Nights, Omphale: A Rococo Story
Italo Calvino- The Baron in the Trees
Tolstoy- The Kreutzer Sonata
Thomas Mann- Death in Venice
Gunter Grass- The Tin Drum

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

I'm not sure what Americans teach in high school, in Canada we had practically no American literature in high school except for Arthur Miller.

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I know that Canadians have an ingrown resentment of the United States, but did you at least have any British literature thrust upon you as a child? The Canadian corpus isn't substantial enough to complete anyone's education.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I know that Canadians have an ingrown resentment of the United States, but did you at least have any British literature thrust upon you as a child? The Canadian corpus isn't substantial enough to complete anyone's education.

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Of course we had British literature, up until the mid 70s that was essentially what was exclusively taught in schools. Although, I would disagree that Canadian literature isn't substantial enough to satisfy the education of high school students. The American and British canon is devoid of anything that speaks to the experiences of French or native Canadians. The schools also serve a purpose of propagating the cultural traditions of Canada.

It has nothing to do with an ingrown resentment of the USA, you say that as if it should come as a surprise that people would be more interested in their own culture rather than yours. There's plenty American cultural influence in Canada as is.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Of course we had British literature, up until the mid 70s that was essentially what was exclusively taught in schools. Although, I would disagree that Canadian literature isn't substantial enough to satisfy the education of high school students. The American and British canon is devoid of anything that speaks to the experiences of French or native Canadians. The schools also serve a purpose of propagating the cultural traditions of Canada.

It has nothing to do with an ingrown resentment of the USA, you say that as if it should come as a surprise that people would be more interested in their own culture rather than yours. There's plenty American cultural influence in Canada as is.

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We still resent them to an extent though, there is that truth element. Then again, that too isn't restricted to Canada. Still, there is something to be said of not having American literature fed.

The US has the condition of a national literature born in the time of Nationhood, in the Benedict Anderson sense, with also a very strong cultural drive that puts the US as the focus, and seems to limit its perspective - that is pretty much fact, there is no denying that the US is more concerned with the US than Canada is with Canada.

Perhaps people just feel resentment that this self-obsessed culture is pushing itself on top of them. The general attitude of many posts would suggest that.


Reading French literature, for instance, does not seem to have the same nation-idea behind it. Neither does British literature for the most part - so where does that leave Canada.

As a lover of Canadian literature in general, I would argue that perhaps there is something to be gained. Our concept of self is noticeably different, and it is good to have this dialog that is called Canadian literature, especially when literature from the South is constantly throwing its self-obsessed ideas over our heads. Perhaps this idea of showing another side is important - after all, we are not in the same country, and literature is not a museum, but a continual process - a dialog that is constantly changing. Why not then give exposure to the home dialog?

Besides which, from experience, my high school textbook was one of the more multicultural books - it had everything from lesser-known Japanese poets, to Chinese poems (of assorted genres) to essays by African writers, American poets, and all sorts of other stuff. From what I understand the book is a standard in Canada - to suggest a sort of need for American literature is ridiculous.

With translation, we can appreciate from all corners of this world - to suggest that the American or British traditions in themselves are more relevant is quite ridiculous - quite simply, if length wasn't a factor, and you swapped Cat's Cradle for a grade 10 class with Genji, or Don Quixote, or Dream of theRed Chamber nobody would lose, in fact, the gain would be tremendous.

Yes, but one can not deny that great literature has come out of America, and to completely deny oneself or a whole nation of students to that literature out of a resentment to the country's percieved self-obsession would be a disservice, no?

I agree, though, that the USA is too pushy when it comes to the rest of the world, and I definitely agree we are way to self-concerned when it comes to literature--we need much more diversity in the classroom, but don't paint us all with the same brush. Not all of us feel the need to be so egocentric. We all don't come from Texas, which is like a whole other country inside of the US.

I do have to question this quote, though: "there is no denying that the US is more concerned with the US than Canada is with Canada." Really? You seem to be very prideful of Canada, and quite resentful to the USA. I know I am quite dissapointed in the USA, as I know many others in the USA are, and have no real resentment to any other nation. Sorry, but this quote seems quite arrogant in itself.

And thanks for all the suggestions that have been made. Do you, JBI, have any suggestions for contemporary Canadian literature? It is something I haven't explored, I admit.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

The American and British canon is devoid of anything that speaks to the experiences of French or native Canadians.

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To hear you tell it, Canadians drive backwards and live on the moon. But 75% live within 100 miles of the U.S. border and 90% live within 150 miles. Ethnic backgrounds, languages, and civilization ages are all roughly the same, but what could we possibly have in common?

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

The schools also serve a purpose of propagating the cultural traditions of Canada.

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That's what I figure is going on up north. America went through that phase in the mid-1800s when it was trying to show it's independence from the European tradition, even though all we'd really achieved at the time was Poe and Cooper.

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

It has nothing to do with an ingrown resentment of the USA, you say that as if it should come as a surprise that people would be more interested in their own culture rather than yours.

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At this point, Canadian culture is largely American culture anyway, and it seems a little silly to deny it. You wear our clothes. You listen to our music. You drive our cars. You live in our buildings, watch our movies, and read our books. We're like the girl you **** but won't bring home to your parents.

Of course, you should be more interested in what's yours. But if I didn't own a hammer I'd borrow one from a neighbor. Instead of filling your childrens heads with propaganda about how great their own tradition is, you would probably be better off just teaching them from the best texts available. I'd be pretty upset if my kid was only reading American literature and wasn't getting the best education possible. Vonnegut is alright, but he's no Shakespeare. It's not a native issue, it's a matter of quality. When you only have so much time to reach the little devils, why waste both your times on second rate garbage, even if it was manufactured in the next town over?

By the time I was in high school, American literature felt like a straight jacket. By the time I was in college, the English language felt like a prison. Now I'm older, and the whole Western tradition has begun to feel confining. Getting hung up on things like nationalism seems quaint and provincial at this stage of history when an identity should be so much more than an accident of birth.

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Originally Posted by JBI

With translation, we can appreciate from all corners of this world - to suggest that the American or British traditions in themselves are more relevant is quite ridiculous - quite simply, if length wasn't a factor, and you swapped Cat's Cradle for a grade 10 class with Genji, or Don Quixote, or Dream of theRed Chamber nobody would lose, in fact, the gain would be tremendous.

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Precisely my point. A native resentment doesn't serve anybody. But any largely Anglophone nation, really can't afford to exclude the early contributions of Britain, or the later additions of America.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

I do have to question this quote, though: "there is no denying that the US is more concerned with the US than Canada is with Canada." Really? You seem to be very prideful of Canada, and quite resentful to the USA. I know I am quite dissapointed in the USA, as I know many others in the USA are, and have no real resentment to any other nation. Sorry, but this quote seems quite arrogant in itself.

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While visiting Plato's home one day, Diogenes, disgusted by its exquisite and costly carpets, contemptuously wiped his feet upon them. "Thus do I trample on the pride of Plato," he declared. "Yes," replied Plato, "with greater pride!"

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

To hear you tell it, Canadians drive backwards and live on the moon. But 75% live within 100 miles of the U.S. border and 90% live within 150 miles. Ethnic backgrounds, languages, and civilization ages are all roughly the same, but what could we possibly have in common?

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If you think French Canadians, or even Atlantic Canadians have much in common with the USA, you don't know anything about Canadians. Did you grow up with a portrait of the queen in your home, because I did. Canada's history and cultural attitudes about itself are far different, I didn't claim we have nothing in common, but we are distinct. I certainly feel distinct from Americans.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

That's what I figure is going on up north. America went through that phase in the mid-1800s when it was trying to show it's independence from the European tradition, even though all we'd really achieved at the time was Poe and Cooper.

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Um no, American school still propagates American culture, or are you unaware of American government or history courses in American schools. Or American literature even. We're not even speaking of a literary movement, there is no strong nationalist movement in Canadian literature. Most of our prominent writers today are distinctly non-nationalist, Rawi Hage or Michael Ondaatje are hardly promoting a nationalism in Canadian literature. You could maybe make that claim about Atwood, she hates the US. Canada went through its nationalist period in the 19th century too, like every country in the West. It's just your arrogance of cultural superiority that makes you think Canada is just discovering nationalism now.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

At this point, Canadian culture is largely American culture anyway, and it seems a little silly to deny it. You wear our clothes. You listen to our music. You drive our cars. You live in our buildings, watch our movies, and read our books. We're like the girl you **** but won't bring home to your parents.

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American pop culture dominates everywhere in the world, if we used your definition everyone on Earth is an American. And this is even a recent event in Canada that came around with the invention of the TV. It is also primarily a problem of Ontario and the West, and less so for Quebec and the Atlantic region which have more clear cultural differences from the USA. You also act as if there is no Canadian literature, movies, or books, and that none of us ever interact with them. All those things exist, despite American obliviousness to them. I'm not exactly sure what an American building is too, our floors are actually numbered in the European fashion.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

Of course, you should be more interested in what's yours. But if I didn't own a hammer I'd borrow one from a neighbor. Instead of filling your childrens heads with propaganda about how great their own tradition is, you would probably be better off just teaching them from the best texts available. I'd be pretty upset if my kid was only reading American literature and wasn't getting the best education possible. Vonnegut is alright, but he's no Shakespeare. It's not a native issue, it's a matter of quality. When you only have so much time to reach the little devils, why waste both your times on second rate garbage, even if it was manufactured in the next town over?

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The fact that you think Canadian literature is just second rate garbage is the reason why nobody likes the US. You should also note I didn't say American literature shouldn't be taught, I just said it shouldn't be emphasized. Why should we shove loads of American literature down the throats of high school students.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

Precisely my point. A native resentment doesn't serve anybody. But any largely Anglophone nation, really can't afford to exclude the early contributions of Britain, or the later additions of America.

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I think we'll be alright, the later additions of America aren't all that relevant to the needs of high school students. They just need to learn how to read and write properly.

Mortalterror doesn't speak for all Americans.

I have been to Canada (albeit just across the border to Niagra Falls) and just there I could see cultural differences, and that area is about as westernized as Branson, Missouri.

Both of you are arguing at the extreme end of your side. Should Canada focus more on Candian literature? Perhaps. Should Canada disregard all American literature because of American ignorance? Of course not.

From OP:

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

Now, I'm not looking for tons of action and explosions, just a story that moves at a reasonable pace. I'm tired of reading (or attempting to read) books that take fifteen pages to describe one simple aspect of the story. It just isn't my thing. I read to escape, and I don't want to escape into a mundane world.

So, if you have any suggestions on some classics I could read every now and then, just to keep my intellectual cred in order, so to speak, I'd be much appreciative.

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Off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

That's kind of lame. The conversation evolved to the point it has, and has taken a pretty interesting turn? Why can't it continue?

I have to agree with your detractors, Mutatis. You don't seem to possess an attitude of literary scholarship. No one likes all classics, of course, but where is the depth of appreciation?

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

Yes, but one can not deny that great literature has come out of America, and to completely deny oneself or a whole nation of students to that literature out of a resentment to the country's percieved self-obsession would be a disservice, no?

I agree, though, that the USA is too pushy when it comes to the rest of the world, and I definitely agree we are way to self-concerned when it comes to literature--we need much more diversity in the classroom, but don't paint us all with the same brush. Not all of us feel the need to be so egocentric. We all don't come from Texas, which is like a whole other country inside of the US.

I do have to question this quote, though: "there is no denying that the US is more concerned with the US than Canada is with Canada." Really? You seem to be very prideful of Canada, and quite resentful to the USA. I know I am quite dissapointed in the USA, as I know many others in the USA are, and have no real resentment to any other nation. Sorry, but this quote seems quite arrogant in itself.

And thanks for all the suggestions that have been made. Do you, JBI, have any suggestions for contemporary Canadian literature? It is something I haven't explored, I admit.

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Try the works of Alice Munro, I doubt she would disappoint, also The Studhorse Man by Robert Kroetsch is an excellent comic novel.

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Originally Posted by Jeremydav

I have to agree with your detractors, Mutatis. You don't seem to possess an attitude of literary scholarship. No one likes all classics, of course, but where is the depth of appreciation?

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Have you read the whole thread? If you have, and still feel this way, I don't know what to say. I feel I've explained my attitude of "literary scholarship" quite thoroughly.

And, thanks JBI, I'll check those out.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi

Have you read the whole thread? If you have, and still feel this way, I don't know what to say. I feel I've explained my attitude of "literary scholarship" quite thoroughly.

And, thanks JBI, I'll check those out.

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Nothing you've said in this thread has led me to believe that you enjoy literature as much as you should.

What do you mean, "depth of appreciation"? I've appreciated every piece of classic literature I've read, whether I enjoyed it or not.