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I think the something else is rooted in the religious views that are linked to nature. I can't articulate it yet coherently, but I think the actions, the violence, nature, and some sort of religion that is rooted in the natural elements are all interlinked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, I have noticed that, though like you I do not know yet quite what conclusions to draw upon it, but I recall one line which recall struck out at me because it seemed very pagan in nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I do not know remember how it was exactly worded, but someone commented about how the Bible was a lie, and the judge I think it was made a comment about God being in the stone and the earth or something to a similar effect to that.
And there were a few other occurrences in which there does seem to be a very naturalistic approach to religion.
I'm pretty sure it's a pagan outlook but I don't think it's a traditional pagan. The violence goes beyond anything pagan that I can think of. But it's certainly not Christian or Judaic.
The idea of seeing God in nature is a very Pagan outlook, as for the violence, while as it has already been mentioned before it is pushed to the extreme, but there were many Pagan cultures that were revolved around warrior gods. As I think there is one point in which the Apaches were described as being like Viking warriors, and the Vikings did primarily worship a war god, for the Celts the warrior culture was also a part of their spiritual beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
You're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
This sort of relates to the topic of the Pagan themes within the book, as well as the idea of the myth of the American West as it presented, but one of the things which struck out at me while I am reading is the way in which McCarthy draws frequently from aspects of European myth.
He alludes to Medusa and the Gorgons on separate occasions, he often uses the word changeling in association with Indian, or Mexican children, and as mentioned above, he described the Apaches as being Viking like. He also uses the word barbarian frequently, which is a term I associate more often with the European tribes than I do with Native Americans, which were more commonly termed "Savage."
In a book about the American West, I have to say I often find some of this European imagery to stick out and feel as if it is out of place. The images it conjures up does not fit with the landscape of the story for me.
Interestiong. I haven't picked up on that. I have picked up on Christian and Judaic allusions. I think McCarthy is after some universalizing religion deep in the heart of nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The idea of the universality of religion is an interesting, and I can see where it would make sense in considering the Pagan themes which are merged with the Judeo-Christian god, but how does this statement about religion relate to the persistent violence in the book?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Is it a way of pointing out that all religions are at base the same and the hypocrisy of the Judeo-Christian religions of trying to act as if it is on a moral high ground over the Pagan religions.
One of the things which has struck out at me in this book, is the irony of the scalp collectors. The fact that certain Native tribes did use scalping to collect war trophies and a sign of their bravery in war, was often used to demonize them among the whites and to strike fear in people of Indians, and as propaganda about how savage they were and that they were more like wild animals than human beings.
Yet here is a group of Americans which have been hired to gallop around slaughtering villages to collect their scalps and turn them for a bounty, and even as they ride around killing women and children, they still speak of the Indians as being the savages.
What the hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So the judge buys a couple of pupies just to throw them off a bridge, and than someone else shoots them
No, I think it's that death is connected to the numinous. Animal or human sacrifice as a spiritual act is very common among lots of religions. Oh, this all reminds me of the Aztecs, and their territory was around the setting as well. I wonder if there's a connection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Agreed. Of course McCarthy is being ironic. I don't know if they were hired or are collecting on scalps. I wonder how much of this is based on real types of events. I hope to God it's not.Quote:
One of the things which has struck out at me in this book, is the irony of the scalp collectors. The fact that certain Native tribes did use scalping to collect war trophies and a sign of their bravery in war, was often used to demonize them among the whites and to strike fear in people of Indians, and as propaganda about how savage they were and that they were more like wild animals than human beings.
Yet here is a group of Americans which have been hired to gallop around slaughtering villages to collect their scalps and turn them for a bounty, and even as they ride around killing women and children, they still speak of the Indians as being the savages.
Maybe hired was not the right word, but I recall that Tovidine, the Kid, and I think also the Delewares were recurited by Glanton, they had been arrested, and if they agreed to hunt scalps they would be freed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Oh I missed that. Today I read where they made it to that Mexican town and were paid for the scalps, the towns where they bathed and partied with the whores. The people in town treated them as heros. But I enjoyed the break from the violence and the partying was engaging. I thought that was a fun chapter. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
It is in Ch. 6, and it was acutally The Kid, Toadvine, and the judge, when they first met Glanton:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
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His name is Glanton, said Toadvine. He's got a contract with Trias. They're to pay him a hundred dollars a head for scalps and a thousand for Gomez's head. I told him there was three of us. Gentlemens, we're gettin out of this ****hole.
Oh great. Thanks a lot. :) I must have missed that. I wondered what the heck they were doing wondering around the desert killing Indians.
That is one of the good things about the chapter outlines. It makes it easy to go back and look up things which happened in previous chapters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil