Was jane austen (1775-1817) black?

I'm almost indulging myself inside-out here, Mark.

I'm sorry, but you can't offer up pale pictures of people as 'proof' that they're coloured - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

Hair colour, eyes and build are not definite indicators - I've been described as dark and swarthy before, and I'm utterly Anglo-Saxon.

Austen was concerned about the plight of black people in the colonies - Mansfield Park has a wonderful scene when a discussion at a party moves around to the estate's revenues, which by implication are built on slavery in the West Indies (Man's-field, you see?), and suddenly the conversation goes absolutely dead, as no one is willing to voice the fact. That surely is a far more subtle way of passing comment on the social situation than Austen secretly and ambiguously making all her characters black! She's an infinitely better writer than that.

Oh, by the by, you also made a comment that Emma was dedicated to the Prince Regent (whom you assert was black) - this is very true, but the Prince was a big fan of hers, and requested that she dedicate a novel to him. She was absolutely against it, but her publishers were not prepared to disobey the Prince.

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Originally Posted by Jassy Melson

Black supremism still exists. To borrow a phrase from Voltaire: Crush the foul thing!

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Now you are talking! He refers to the Ancien Regime. You know, off course that dear Voltaire has been dead for quite a while now.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

See, if any of us called you a nutcase, the moderator would be on us like white on Austen. But you, I think, will be indulged when you call Dafydd a nutcase, because everyone thinks you're a... Well, you can see where this is going.

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This thread is about Jane Austen. You are not discussing Jane Austen!

No, the thread is about you. Austen is just the tune you've given yourself to dance to.

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Originally Posted by Egmond Codfried

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ss_of_Fife.jpg

Queen Alexandra, her daughter and mother, Queen of Denmark, both named Louise.: looking mighty brown and frizzled haired, but no other African features, just these two!

Please read this source on the practice of Enamelling and Queen Alexandra



http://cosmeticsandskin.com/aba/quee...enamelling.php

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You really mean this, don't you? Have you ever seen a black person?? They have other features. Without wanting to sound racist, they do not, and I repeat do not have the same features as caucasians, which we are talking about here. They even have another build bodywise.

So, Queen Alexandra's and a number of others' hair might look frizzled, but they still do not have black features. Ever heard of hair-curlers? Very popular, I daresay.

Did you know by the way, that the aristocrats you put on here, are all wearing wigs due to things such as lice and flees? Not to mention plain dirt and deseases such as scurvy and syphilis which took a toll on their hair. They had to cut their hair off. They even had special devices in order to be able to scratch under those wige which looked like little sticks with a little hook on it. Or did you think that those huge bunches of hair were real? You did didn't you, so how is it that nor black people (who mainly have very shrot hair because theirs does not get very long) nor caucasians have any hairdos like that at all anymore? Why do you think that is?

Because it is impossible. Their hair is much too thick to be real.

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Originally Posted by kelby_lake

But in the 19th century, 'dark' often just meant dark hair, eyes, and not pasty white skin. I think if this were true, someone would have discovered it well before now.

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Just wait. In a few hundred years it will be common knowledge that those people were of the Negro race.

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I'm sorry, but you can't offer up pale pictures of people as 'proof' that they're coloured - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!

Hair colour, eyes and build are not definite indicators - I've been described as dark and swarthy before, and I'm utterly Anglo-Saxon.

Austen was concerned about the plight of black people in the colonies - Mansfield Park has a wonderful scene when a discussion at a party moves around to the estate's revenues, which by implication are built on slavery in the West Indies (Man's-field, you see?), and suddenly the conversation goes absolutely dead, as no one is willing to voice the fact. That surely is a far more subtle way of passing comment on the social situation than Austen secretly and ambiguously making all her characters black! She's an infinitely better writer than that.

Oh, by the by, you also made a comment that Emma was dedicated to the Prince Regent (whom you assert was black) - this is very true, but the Prince was a big fan of hers, and requested that she dedicate a novel to him. She was absolutely against it, but her publishers were not prepared to disobey the Prince.

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Perhaps we should get some structure in our exchanges lest we sound like Miss Bates.

Have you read my postings about 'identity' as a better indicator of a Black identity, then only looks. For example, we all understand a Jewish Identity, but we do not measure someones nose to determine his Jewish identity. We rather look at, if he is a writer, what world view he has, what Jewish ideas he puts forth etc.

Then I have given some examples of how a black person, Obama, can be made to look white. Yet we go by the descriptions and not some white looking, fake portrait.

Mansfield Park is about slavery, the Bertram family are slave owners. Mr. Nibbs was Jane Austen's godfather and had a plantation in Antigua, of which Jane's father, the reverend George Austen, was a trustee. Austen knew everything about slavery and condemned it, in Mansfield Park.

Fanny Price represents a favourite house slave. Her coming out ball is her manumission. Afterwards Austen suggest that marriage is a kind of slavery. She writes allegories that up to a point can be read as ordinary love stories.

Do you agree that Mr. Henry Crawford is Black? And his colour is not used to deprecate or diminish his character. Or to symbolise evil or some other nonsense. The Bertrams are coloureds, and they are in love with the Crawfords. Craving to bring back some colour, nobleness, into their bloodline.

Today I took Butler, J.A and the War of Ideas. Did you read the letters of Eliza de Feuillide, cousin of Jane Austen? I was mainly interested in the part about Marie Antoinette and wether she painted herself white, called rouging

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Originally Posted by kiki1982

You really mean this, don't you? Have you ever seen a black person?? They have other features. Without wanting to sound racist, they do not, and I repeat do not have the same features as caucasians, which we are talking about here. They even have another build bodywise.

So, Queen Alexandra's and a number of others' hair might look frizzled, but they still do not have black features. Ever heard of hair-curlers? Very popular, I daresay.

Did you know by the way, that the aristocrats you put on here, are all wearing wigs due to things such as lice and flees? Not to mention plain dirt and deseases such as scurvy and syphilis which took a toll on their hair. They had to cut their hair off. They even had special devices in order to be able to scratch under those wige which looked like little sticks with a little hook on it. Or did you think that those huge bunches of hair were real? You did didn't you, so how is it that nor black people (who mainly have very shrot hair because theirs does not get very long) nor caucasians have any hairdos like that at all anymore? Why do you think that is?

Because it is impossible. Their hair is much too thick to be real.

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Dear, I love you for your trivialities, but I'm really taking a stab at a scientific approach, here. I'm not talking general stuff, but specifics. Did you read about enamelling and how this nonsense of blue veins came into the world?
Blacks and coloureds come in many shapes and forms. Alicia Keys, is black, no? India Arie too. anyway, I'm reading my way through the 3000 books written about Jane Austen. How about you?

Since most of the posts are off-topic, this thread will now be closed.

Egmond> If you still would like to discuss this issue, please start another thread.

R e m i n d e r_t o_A l l

If you are not ready to receive criticism or have your ideas challenged by other members, please refrain from posting in a public Forum.

And, as always, please do not personalise your arguments and keep in mind that we are here to discuss the ideas, not the people behind them.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

See, if any of us called you a nutcase, the moderator would be on us like white on Austen. But you, I think, will be indulged when you call Dafydd a nutcase, because everyone thinks you're a... Well, you can see where this is going.

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Calling another member "a nutcase" on the Forum is never tolerated - regardless of the identity of the "caller".

However, much to the Moderator's own chagrin, she does have a life outside the Forum, which requires her attention at the most unfortunate times and she fails to materialise "on the scene" immediately every now and then, for which she is most remorseful and apologetic.