Gender Roles

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

I'm not sure how you can know what women up and down the country do except from a limited anecdotal view - which may or may not be as you say.

In my anecdotal experience, the men I talk to seem to have come to a compromise about the jobs they do with their partners.

but very few men actually do it, and when they do help out they expect a reward.


Men are emotional, so when he has grown up watching his mother do all the housework, he learns from that situation and sees it as the norm,

There's no way you can know most men and judge what very few men do or think. In my opinion that's just another stereotype that's too simplistic to give any idea of what goes on.

There are tidy, lazy, busy, slothful, demanding, obsessive compulsive, hysterical, control freaky men and women.

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How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

This is something Bill O'Reilly would say, or some other hack job conservative Republican on Fox News. Research shows that it is those women who choose to go out and work, rather than those who stay home with the kids, who receive society's scorn.

Is it? Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'. It looks like you are speaking from your own perceptions of the world and not the bigger picture.

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Tell that to the women and professors in my class on feminism. These aren't even my own theories, it was stuff I learned in class, stuff brought up by women way mor into the whole feminism thing.

Also, I said a new TREND, i.e., it's not the norm, but it is gaining popularity.

Thirdly, women making more money is not at all uncommon. Again, not saying its the norm--we still have the problem of a woman making 3/4 of what a man does doing the same job, which is incredibly backwards--just saying it isn't all that rare.

I went to a seminar (given by two feminists) who discussed how, for some feminists, it's hard for them to transition from fighting for everything to actually accepting some victories have been made. They don't know how to transition from fighting to accosting, so one of two things happens: they start fighting and nit-picking over the most trivial of things, or just refuse to see some actual change has happened. You sound like one of those, Babyguile, the latter specifically.

Also, yes, when you say "research shows," maybe you should post the "research."

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

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Ok but you didn't say so. I'll take your word for research, no problem.

Don't be annoyed - it's merely a good natured discussion.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

I embrace bacteria.

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Haha does it embrace you though?:lol:
do you believe bacteria is natural to the human body?

~

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments or discuss each other.

Those who fail to show respect others' views will receive infraction points.

~

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

Tell that to the women and professors in my class on feminism. These aren't even my own theories, it was stuff I learned in class, stuff brought up by women way mor into the whole feminism thing.

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Well 'feminists' is not a homogenous group and we don't have to agree with eachother. You can talk to feminists and get a range of views but I was drawing on peer-reviewed psychological research with no feminist agenda.

You didn't make any 'theories' you just recited a lot of misconceptions which are worryingly prevalent among conservatives (and conservative feminists), and they are attitudes which I think are damaging feminist progress. We have made some progress but not as much as you assumed, and as I said, you cannot expect to dispel gender perceptions and constructions in a generation or two. There is a lot of reform that hasn't even begun: areas where women don't even have the means to acheive "equality".

Meh. I'm not going to go back and forth with you, Babyguile (I know you don't like me, so you're personal distaste of me will cloud the issue and render any valid points I make moot). Anyone who's been here as long as you should know I'm one of the biggest feminists on this board.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Ok but you didn't say so. I'll take your word for research, no problem.

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I won't.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

Anyone who's been here as long as you should know I'm one of the biggest feminists on this board.

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Well it's nice to know you have good intentions.

Gender quarrels again haha. Where would we be without our differences?
I am guessing not very far.:D

Men and women are different and will have different tastes, predilections, ways of spending time. I've met amazing women, smart women, smarter than me, who aspired to be wives and mothers. Being a wife and a mother is the toughest job out there. Raising a kid right is TOUGH. The women who spend their time doing it should be respected, not demeaned.

This is my beef with some feminists.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/17927430.jpg

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

How annoying that you assumed I was being simply anecdotal :lol: ... I was drawing on a field of psychological research into the division of labour in the home. Should I really be called upon to provide links and references for every point I make? My aim was deliberately to refute Mustatis' conclusions which he drew from his own anecdotal experiences, and I made that quite clear.

I will provide links but you have to promise you will read them. Otherwise a good summary of the last twenty years of this research can be found in Cordelia Fine's book Delusions of Gender. It's kind of my area.

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I still think the picture is much more complex than you originally said. It seems a simplification. Without putting yourself out, would you expand a little?

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.

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Originally Posted by Helga

I never give up, if I can't open it I use the handle on a spoon and jam it under the lid to let some air in, that makes it easier. but that is a kind of a funny house call, 'hey can you open a jar for me?'

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Haha I know, one of the women I asked was East Indian or something and didn't speak english very well, she thought I was giving her a jar of spaghetti sauce. She handed it back, "oh, no thank you!"

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Originally Posted by Alexander III

Well little lady, with that attitude you will never find yourself a respectable husband.

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Haha, maybe my revulsion of housekeeping is the result of that subconcious plan.

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Originally Posted by Babyguile

Then why do women still do the majority of the housework even though they and their partners may both be working full-time? Women up and down your country and mine are still toiling through that unpaid 'second shift'.

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Well why don't they just not do it?

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Originally Posted by Darcy88

Being a wife and a mother is the toughest job out there.

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People are always saying that, it's so dishonest. I don't think being a stay-at-home mom in any way compares, in arduousness, physical danger, and/or potential for psychological trauma or burnout, to:

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...a_1401835c.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...lance_4495.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...hina-zoom2.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...ss-400x400.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...canologist.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...th_longwa1.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...h_er_nurse.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/p...risonguard.jpg

I mean sure, watching endless daytime tv and cleaning up after screaming brats is a boring and sh*tty (often literally) job, but "the toughest job out there?" I really don't think so. I don't get why it's supposed to be a big deal that women work anyway, my momma worked 50 hours/week and I've always done better in school and life than my classmates who had moms around the house all day. First she was a waitress (stressful job), and while she was waitressing she was studying to be an accounant because she had me when she was seventeen before she could go to college, and from the time I was sixteen on she worked at the havoc-riddled local wood mill as their accountant. My mother is the epitome of "hard work," it benefited me to see that growing up, and plus it made me proud of her.

I think women who decide to stay at home and raise kids should be respected for that choice but as Juniper said I don't think it's the toughest job. The women on the pictures above probably most of them have kids and do both. A tough job and raise kids.

When it comes to work or staying home people should be able to do what they want to.

Oh and by the way there are more than a few stay at home dads here on the ice.

Also somebody mentioned that men need to be complimented if they do a household chore, my ex was like that. If he vacuumed and I didn't say something the minuet I got home he'd be all upset and say' can't you see I vacuumed?' This annoyed me a lot so I started doing it all the time 'didn't you notice I cleaned the toilet?'

that stopped him.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

It is true that most commercials put females into the cleaning/cooking role. When they use men, they always depict them as incompetant idiots. "Derp! Gee honey, instead of buying socks for the kids I just thought it would be a good idea to dip their feet in white paint but now there's paint all over the floor!" -actual commercial.

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Reminds me of an ad over here in Australia for some kitchen appliance with the tagline "So simple, even a man could understand it"

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Originally Posted by Pierre Menard

Reminds me of an ad over here in Australia for some kitchen appliance with the tagline "So simple, even a man could understand it"

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Interesting pun although who else is supposed to understand it if it was not a a person/man?
A screw and hammer?