The puzzle of Beethoven's Kochs!

In a post of earlier today I mentioned -

According to Macek, the first performances of Mozart operas at the residences of Lobkowitz took place at Raudnitz in Bohemia in the fall of 1798, thus before the theatre itself was actually completed. An ensemble of singers from Prague, organized by Franz Strobach, Kapellmeister at the Lobkowitz Loretto Church, was invited to perform Die Entführung aus dem Serail and Cosě fan tutte; the orchestra was enlarged with the addition of local amateur players.

I might also note this same Loretto Church in Prague - which has a long musical association with the careers of Haydn and Mozart (owned by the Lobkowitz family) was a very active centre of musical 'work' in the years after Mozart's death. It was the place where the music archives of Bonn eventually came to after their evacuation from Bonn in 1794. Around the same time as Beethoven's visit there with Lobkowitz (and the visit of Constanze Mozart). The start there in Prague of the first biography of F.X. Niemetscheck (1794-1798). Those music archives of Bonn were doctored before being transfered to Modena in Italy and elsewhere. (In many cases their covers often being ripped off if that gave away their true origins and all trace of their real composers purposely removed). In numerous textbooks these scores now at Modena are said to be of very recent origin. When, in fact, they are among the oldest of them all. As we see by watermark and other internal evidence. With their contents now 'sanitised' and numerous symphonies and masses now officially credited on those pages to 'Haydn' and 'Mozart' before eventually arriving there at Modena in Italy. A similar sort of thing to what was happening with stage works at the Lobkowitz estate in Bohemia, in Paris, Italy and elsewhere. Not forgetting London and the careers of Viotti, Lorenzo da Ponte etc under the 'artistic management' of Gallini etc). The King's Theatre and that unfortunate fire which destroyed it. Shortly before the token visit there of organist Abbe Georg Vogler, that is. LOL !

Yanni,

I think there are two different things which are often confused. There are actions and then there are reactions. Actionaries and reactionaries. Who can doubt there was a Reformation ? And that there was a Counter-Reformation ? The latter took lots of money to achieve. To perpetuate the power and interests of the empire.

So, I really doubt financial interests define change as such. They are characteristics of the system of reaction. But nothing else. Reality happens and the spin merchants go in to operation to suppress it or misrepresent it. At least, that's what I think. 'History being written by the winners' etc.

We've been through a lot of counterfeit stuff. But reality just keeps appearing. It's a feature of our time. Something to be encouraged and welcomed, I believe. Not so much money as such. But the 'love' of money.

As for money, who can doubt that it changes men ? Sometimes without them knowing it. I've seen examples of it happening. The stuff tends to corrupt, for sure.

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Originally Posted by yanni

You cannot deny that financial interests define "change" (Church included) and you don't really still support a "Russeau/Gluck-antireformist" theory, do you?

As for classical music: No, I never liked it (for the fate of my grandfather who also sang Faust while touring the lands of The Golden Fleece, Krakow included).

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Financial interests define change just as technological "progress" does (and there are always the conflicting interests of the privileged few vs hoi polloi's).

All the above social "facts" however run against the one and only truth of "creation" as history and science (should) recognize.

And of course "money's" own history is one of geometrical decline, almost parallel to "progress", particularly so during the last few centuries.

Greetings.

Yes indeed. The bubble has burst. But the doctrine of progress has to be maintained to keep the illusion going. Any other 'history' is forbidden. Social Darwinism, in fact. The engineering of society. At every level. Including the academic world. So that the myth of progress is equated with the empires they wish to build.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Financial interests define change just as technological "progress" does (and there are always the conflicting interests of the privileged few vs hoi polloi's).

All the above social "facts" however run against the one and only truth of "creation" as history and science (should) recognize.

And of course "money's" own history is one of geometrical decline, almost parallel to "progress", particularly so during the last few centuries.

Greetings.

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(Quoted from a sonetto by Nicholo di chocho donati, scriptore, dedicated to Piero de Medici and his wife, Mona Lucrezia, the pair having survived a Pitti revolt, July 1466).

Of interest re "change as applicable":

Cocchi Fr. Nicolaus, Viterbiensis, Theol. Bacc., acri ingenio et probitate clarus, sua studiorum curricula Arimini, Ravennae, Bononiae, Perusiae egregie perfecit ab an. 1780 ad an. 1790, quo die 17 decembris renuntiatus fuit Lector, et tribus post annis Anconae Bacc. Deinc Romam accitus, cum esset Collegialis, an. 1795, studiorum moderatore P. Ioanne Augustino Carabelloni, suam Ex novo testamento Syllexim Exegetico - Hermeneutico- Polemico-Empirico criticam exposuit, quamque Cardinali Andreae Ioannetto Archiepiscopo Bononiensi dicavit atque editit, Romae, 1795, Typ. Giannelli, in 4. Reliquit insuper Logicam et Metaphisicam, quae mss. asservantur in archivo Ordinis, et in Cod. 427 Bibl. Angelicae Urbis, inter ff. 1-173. In eodem codice vero ff. 1-518 habentur etiam eiusdem, sub nomine tamen Fr. Nicolai Coccia: In Praedicamenta Aristotelis disputationes sex, quae inc.: "Disputatio I. de Ente rationis ebiectivo. Philosophiam haec labes invasit". Expl: "Finis. Laus Deo Deiparaeque. Si Pater Adam, materque est omnibus Eva cur ergo non sumus nobilitate pares. Fr. Nieolaus Coccia".

Also of interest, Novara's Coccia theater (Carlo Coccia, composer) and the late 18th evolution of "Cocchi" to "Coccia".

Best wishes for your book.

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yes indeed. The bubble has burst. But the doctrine of progress has to be maintained to keep the illusion going. Any other 'history' is forbidden. Social Darwinism, in fact. The engineering of society. At every level. Including the academic world. So that the myth of progress is equated with the empires they wish to build.

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Yes, Yanni.

You may be aware Aristotelian philosophy was that of an oligarchical society. In Venice (a territory which was supposedly independent of Rome) the ruling elites there always studied it. It's chief university (one used by Contarini - the Venetian Cardinal who supported the creation of the Jesuit Order) was Padua, nearby. In Italy proper. In fact, Contarini himself was educated in Aristotle at Padua. So was the Venetian advisor to the English King, Henry 8th at the time of his divorce, one Francesco Zorzi. Who encouraged the break with Rome taken by the same Henry over his divorce, encouraged by these very same Aristotelian Venetians. Out of which came trading alliances between the mercantile English and these Venetians and the early founding of shipping companies. Leading, gradually, to formation of the British Empire. With their full assistance. The full cost of which was the infiltration of England and its government. These (in the 1570's) including formation of first the 'Turkey Company', and then the 'Venice Company' who both merged after becoming the 'Levant Company' to form the early British East India Company. Further expansion led to the Bank of England. In fact, the Venetian influence was massive in England from that time onwards. So that the occultist/Jesuit movement working out of Venice was now in alliance with English mercantile elites and the English monarchy was now a rival to Rome. And Rome was of course a rival to Protestant England as a whole. This all before the Spanish Armada of 1588. In fact, the first head of the British East India company, Smyth, was himself a student of the Aristotelian system of government at the same Padua University. Same as these Venetians themselves.

So the above information on Cocchi's association with Aristotle does not suprise me. The Cocchi clan were undoubtedly associated with this emerging Jesuit/occultist/Venetian movement. Who were developing strong links with the emerging British Empire through their shipping empire. One product of which was the British East India Company. And it would not suprise me to learn Cocchis were students at Padua university in Italy. In fact, it was from the 'Giovani' movement of Venice that came the nucleus of early Freemasonry in England. Whose head oversaw the introduction of it into England. Paolo Sarpi.

Regards

And, as for the origins of Freemasonry, further reading has confirmed this too definitely emerged out of Venice. From the 'Giovani' there, a group headed up by Paolo Sarpi. Transfered to England with this Venetian/Jesuit/Occultist influence within the government and elite society as the British Empire emerged. And Sarpi was in direct correspondence with men such as Francis Bacon etc. The myth of Isaac Newton, that of William Shakespeare and almost total control of the Royal Society resulted. Since the Rosicrucian/occultist origins of that group has direct links to this incoming Venetian influence in England. Including the diplomatic and secret services of England itself. Historians such as Wooton have already shown these things in some detail.

Yanni,

And here, to finish my input on this thread -

George Onslow
Symphony No. 4
Second Movement
(Scherzo Presto)

http://www.mediafire.com/?mdrndqwdwzd

Regards

Robert

Regarding your last three posts:

The "story" of Venice taking over England thru freemasonry has already been discussed and I have no interest to commence all over again but one thing is for sure: Venice had close links to Byzance and as such inherited classical Greece and passed it over to the rest of Europe, including Aristotle.

Nobody (other than you and some high priests perhaps) has ever doubted his contribution to philosophy (in the greek sense ie "all inclusive") and to human understanding of "the universe" and man's role in it.

Calling him the prophet of oligarchical societies is....an unfortunate choice, to say the least.

Yanni,

The bible so accurately describes the Greeks as follows -

'The Jews seek signs and the Greeks wisdom'.

So wonderfully confirmed by the facts of history. Since Greece was amongst the earliest of nations to receive Christianity. Since which time pagan philosophy has become pagan philosophy. And the search for truth has been ended by the revealing of truth itself.

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Regarding your last three posts:

The "story" of Venice taking over England thru freemasonry has already been discussed and I have no interest to commence all over again but one thing is for sure: Venice had close links to Byzance and as such inherited classical Greece and passed it over to the rest of Europe, including Aristotle.

Nobody (other than you and some high priests perhaps) has ever doubted his contribution to philosophy (in the greek sense ie "all inclusive") and to human understanding of "the universe" and man's role in it.

Calling him the prophet of oligarchical societies is....an unfortunate choice, to say the least.

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Yes, logic and the old "Bible" (to general a term- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible- please clarify) have only the greek inspired and written New Testament in common.

Keep on seeking signs if you must but try not misinterpreting them in the future otherwise your next "Beethoven" will never be completed either.

That's all beside the point however and you will not spoil my pleasure for answering Nancy Kovaleff Baker's agonising question if Koch ever put his composition theories into practice (Aesthetics and the art of musical composition in the German Enlightenment, by Johann Georg Sulzer,Nancy Kovaleff Baker,Thomas Street Christensen,Heinrich Christoph Koch).

...and try translating "aesthetics" and "music" into another language!

Regards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

The bible so accurately describes the Greeks as follows -

'The Jews seek signs and the Greeks wisdom'.

So wonderfully confirmed by the facts of history. Since Greece was amongst the earliest of nations to receive Christianity. Since which time pagan philosophy has become pagan philosophy. And the search for truth has been ended by the revealing of truth itself.

Regards

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Yes Yanni,

And we have the statement of Plato himself that the Greeks obtained much of their knowledge from the Egyptians.

As to whether the New Testament is consistent with what we call logic is perhaps less important than the question we might ask of logic - whether it, logic, is consistent with the New Testament. Since the wise Greeks saw in the New Testament something greater than all the philosophers. At least, so says history. For which we have lots of evidence -


Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoics, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' Hill, and said, 'Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked and others said, 'We will hear thee again of this matter'. So Paul departed from among them.

As for Koch and his published ideas on music, they are valuable, for sure. As are those of J.N. Forkel. Indeed, of these two writers, Forkel succeeded beyond anything achieved so far - in reducing these musical issues and value judgements to a simple point. Music which is the finest, he said, is that from which students of music may learn and further develop their skills and talents. So that Koch is mainly concerned with what music is fashionable and what has the best effect on audiences in concert halls and in performances. While Forkel is pointing out that musical fashions, trends, and the interests of the emerging music industry (together with the hyperbole and hero worship of individual reputations) are less important.

Forkel was right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Yes, logic and the old "Bible" (to general a term- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible- please clarify) have only the greek inspired and written New Testament in common.

Keep on seeking signs if you must but try not misinterpreting them in the future otherwise your next "Beethoven" will never be completed either.

That's all beside the point however and you will not spoil my pleasure for answering Nancy Kovaleff Baker's agonising question if Koch ever put his composition theories into practice (Aesthetics and the art of musical composition in the German Enlightenment, by Johann Georg Sulzer,Nancy Kovaleff Baker,Thomas Street Christensen,Heinrich Christoph Koch).

...and try translating "aesthetics" and "music" into another language!

Regards.

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Recognising and adopting what's true and valuable is both logical and scientific.

Mixing up fiction with fact is not and so is cooking up evidence to draw suitable conclusions.

....and you never answered what "Bible" you were referring to in your previous ....

Did you translate at least "music" and "aesthetics" into any other language, "egyptian" perhaps?

I do agree with you on one thing however: With debt to GDP ratios going through the roof now is the right time to start praying!

I understand England is in a bigger financial mess than Greece. According to some data published the other day in London.

As for 'what Bible ?' I was not refering to any particular translation. It seems to me we don't need new translations but an understanding (revealing) of what we already have.

If you find any Koch/Cocchi information in connection with Bonn (which may link with G. Cocchi or others of that family, it would be interesting, for sure). A single family can have very many members, of course. Why, the ancestry of J.S. Bach alone involves no less than 30 different families of that name. And 4 distinct branches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family

Regards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yanni

Recognising and adopting what's true and valuable is both logical and scientific.

Mixing up fiction with fact is not and so is cooking up evidence to draw suitable conclusions.

....and you never answered what "Bible" you were referring to in your previous ....

Did you translate at least "music" and "aesthetics" into any other language, "egyptian" perhaps?

I do agree with you on one thing however: With depth to GDP ratios going through the roof now is the right time to start praying!

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Perhaps of interest, the famous music theorist, Francesco Antonio Valloti (1697-1780), who taught Andrea Luchesi in Venice, was in 1722 organist at St. Antonio in Padua. He became Maestro there in 1730 and held the position for another 50 years (till 1780). He was also associated with Giuseppe Tartini. (Tartini's unpublished treatise on violin playing being plundered and published by Leopold Mozart, first in 1756). Valloti and Tartini's were both careers that would have been associated with G. Cocchi.

(Valloti's musical importance cannot be over-stated. He spent a great deal of thought on the theory of harmony and counterpoint. His theoretical studies culminated in 1779 with publishing of a 167-page, four volume work, 'Della scienza teorica e pratica della moderna musica' ('On the scientific theory and practice of modern music'), just before the end of his life. The influence of Valloti's theories were found by Italian musical researchers A. Trombetta and L. Bianchini (2008) to exist in the musical score of 'Mozart's' opera, 'Le Nozze di Figaro' although, of course the real Mozart studied harmony not a day in his life. With the single exception of a few days token visit to Padua with Padre Martini).

Regards