I won't become a real Christian.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

I am open to any questions (even if they have already been discussed in this thread). I would like to touch on a bit of everything, especially the very first post.

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Hi ShadowFire,

And welcome! What do you think heaven is like? Please describe your vision of heaven as specifically as possible. For example:

Will we be individuals?
Will we remember our +-76 years on this planet?
Will we meet other individuals, family members, etc. that we knew on earth?
Will we be able to see, hear, smell, tasted, and feel?
Are there animals in heaven?
What will we do in heaven?
Does heaven really last for infinity?

Anything else you can add. I'm very interested in this, so thanks in advance for your words.

Blessings,
Doug

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I don't know about Red Zep. I haven't noticed him here as frequently as before, but I did see him here the other day. RichardHesko (I think that's his name) hasn't been around in a while. Pendragon has had health problems and only comes by on occaision. I will say these are all the same arguments you guys have already had, only inspired by a new poster. Is there anything new under the sun? ;)

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Well, there has been quite the derail - I tried to return to the original topic - what makes people subscribe to a religion, yet nobody really seems to actually care about that - merely to push forward their belief.

In actuality, I think I am one of the few posters who actually gave an answer to that - the rest of this hogwash about pseudo-intellectual rubbish and free will (which, one poster claims to not understand, yet subscribe to, tisk tisk), is technically off topic.

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Originally Posted by JBI

In other words, the same predetermined time graph, with human choice taken into account and more emphasis put on the ability for humans to choose what course in life they take.

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Yes, but it just a shows a lack of understanding of maths and what "free will" is.

It's usually the maths which bogs people down, because they don't understand the effect of billions of choice multiplied exponentially, or the effect of others. It makes me chuckle when people grasp at U234 [?]as an exception to determinism, when it doesn't matter a hoot in the end.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Hi,

Just an off topic observation/question: I've been away from this board for a while (4 months?) and I've noticed that the topics are pretty much the same. However there does seem to be a drop in the quality of pro-God arguments. What has happened to people like Pendragon (the gentle Christian) and RedZepplin (intelligent, slice-you-off-a-the-knees with bulldog persistance arguments)? Those folks were able to put forth well formed, intelligent arguments that facilitated learning and interest. In this thread at least, I see none of the old vigor--just boring, wishy-washy kind of arguments. Know what I mean?

Cheers,
Doug

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Pendragon, I agree with you - an outstanding bloke. Red, on the other hand, is just another bible literalist. I just cannot bother with people who refuse to see the wood.

Speaking of which:

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

...I believe in the Bible as the absolute truth...


...The Atheist: I just suggest to you to keep an open mind....

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I find the irony of those two statements delightful.

Wintermute: As I have said before, heaven is beyond conception. I will give my opinion, but again I don't know for sure. I think we will be individuals with our memory of our time here on earth. We won't have our bodies, so I don't believe we will smell and see. I do feel we will have senses though and feelings. So we will be able to meet others up there as a sense of feeling them near us. I think there will be animals, but I have no support yet for such. There will be eternal bliss. None of us have experienced life with no sorrow. Many don't know how you could possible feel as happy as we will. Again we can't comprehend. We will be in awe and love God, those who are there, so we will worship Him. The Bible says the Lord is preparing a house for each one of us who go. A dwelling not built by human hands (2 Corinthians 5:1 NIV). It also says it will be paradise. Of all your questions the one I can give a definite answer with scripture is that it will last for infinity. Even the concept of infinity is hard for the human mind to grasp. If you would like me to further research this topic with my beliefs or if you have more questions, please ask.

JBI: I am sorry this thread has gotten derailed. And I do realize I am not helping the matter. I again apologize to anyone this is bothering.

The Atheist: The reason I believe in the entire Bible is for the fact I wouldn't know what parts to believe and which not. For example, should I not believe the part that says the whole thing is true? I was not trying to be hypocritical in any sense. I do try myself to keep my mind open on many things. I find my believing the Bible to be absolute truth is not as much being closed minded, as it is a thoughtful choice.

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Originally Posted by JBI

The question then, is why do certain people choose to believe this - I see no reason why people cannot comment, and, perhaps give their reasons in a logical manner (instead of saying you cannot possibly know what I feel), or give their thoughts on the subject as a whole.

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but aren't experiences the basis of all human understanding? I like chocolate because it tastes good. I know it tastes good because it tastes good. You can't prove to me that chocolate does not taste good, nor could I prove to you that chocolate does taste good. And even If I conducted an experiment of 1,000 college students and found that 100 percent of those students agreed that "Chocolate does not taste good", it would prove that generally people find chocolate to not taste good, but the fact that by my experience chocolate does taste good, it negates the possibility of disproving that chocolate tastes good. The same goes for all subjective experiences, like the subjective experiences of both the atheists and theists taking part in this discussion. Whether or not one believes in atheism or theism, it is simply their belief.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

I find my believing the Bible to be absolute truth is not as much being closed minded, as it is a thoughtful choice.

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No, I can't buy that claim. Acceptance of the bible as litarlly true requires the suspension of 1000 years of empirical science. It is a thoughtful choice to become closed minded, and you admit that, because you will always side with the bible despite evidence to the contrary.

Why can't atheists choose to believe that there is no God without harping on it to Christians? Why be so contentious about what other people choose to believe? This is one reason why I don't care to come here anymore. And the moderators think that politics are bad?

If people have honest questions about the Bible, then ask someone who cares and chooses to understand it. If all you want to do is ridicule someone who chooses to believe in the Bible, leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Why can't atheists choose to believe that there is no God without harping on it to Christians? Why be so contentious about what other people choose to believe? This is one reason why I don't care to come here anymore. And the moderators think that politics are bad?

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Well, some people see it as a chicken and egg situation - which came first, the theism or the atheism?

I like to think that when atheist organisations have televised events, evangelical broadcats on tv, leaflets dropping in my letterbox alongside the religious ones, and all of the other publicity theists give their religions, then I'll probably give it away.

I'm 100% certain that if there were far less christian fundamentalism in the world, you'd see a lot less of atheism.

If not for the atheists who stand up, Dover might be teaching creationism. Which other groups are going to refute the Discovery Institute and the Creation Museum?

Hey, maybe you're happy to let huge, organised groups take over our education and entertainment systems, but I can't sit idly by and let it happen.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

If people have honest questions about the Bible, then ask someone who cares and chooses to understand it. If all you want to do is ridicule someone who chooses to believe in the Bible, leave it alone.

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I haven't actually seen much in the way of ridicule, but again, it comes back to letting statements stand unchallenged. Should I stop challenging fuel-device manufacturers on their products being rip-offs? Should I accept the word of "sasquatch researchers"? Should I accept the accounts of alien abduction?

Seems to me, the last time we believed in fairy stories for a while - the great recovered memory syndrome scam - lots of innocent people ended up in jail, and some are still fighting to clear their names.

Where should we draw the line?

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Why can't atheists choose to believe that there is no God without harping on it to Christians? Why be so contentious about what other people choose to believe? This is one reason why I don't care to come here anymore. And the moderators think that politics are bad?

If people have honest questions about the Bible, then ask someone who cares and chooses to understand it. If all you want to do is ridicule someone who chooses to believe in the Bible, leave it alone.

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I agree; and I won't be coming back to post further in this thread. I find this whole discussion a bit ridiculous and pointless.

My intuitions told me that I had once been a devil, which a large amount of people worshipped thousands of years ago. I should say I was rather a good-natured devil, which people always found in legends. I was utterly convinced of my intuitions, which sometimes revealed to me facts that would otherwise be unknown, and I always found myself to feel quite the same as those animal devils did in a television soap opera or some books since I was able to perceive anything. This sort of feelings arose in my heart naturally even before they entered the realm of my conscience.
As far as I know, Bible denounces all kinds of witchcraft, which defined by most people as having things to do with a devil. Dating back to the Middle Ages, Christian churches even had the authority to execute witches for their engagement in the field of some unknown power or in devil worshipping. People considered as witches were also put to death for the common good. I am not pretty sure how Bible explains witchcraft and devils, or how God views and deals with such unwonted cases. I don’t really know what will be the outcome if I surrender my soul to God, so that’s going to be something I will never attempt at. By the way, I just don’t like to feel I’ve been dominated by a power all the time. I will certainly feel a lack of freedom if I will have to look up to God before I make every decision or arrive at each truth.
However I have enjoyed spending time around Christians since my college years. I graduated from a Catholic University and I addressed some of our professors as fathers since the first time we met. They are really nice people, and I always felt their sincere kindness when I listened to them or engaged in a talk with them. It was in this University that I accomplished my dream in English Literature, which I had always wished to study but had not had the chance before I entered this University, so I have had some sincere thanks for Christianity even though I will never become a real Christian.

Good natured devils, soul-stealing gods? What kind of catholic 'university' were you at?

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Why can't atheists choose to believe that there is no God without harping on it to Christians? . . .

If all you want to do is ridicule someone who chooses to believe in the Bible, leave it alone.

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Hi JDC,

I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic. In my opinion anything is possible and nothing is certain. I will admit that earth-bound religions like Christianity, Islam, etc. seem like nothing more than human constructs, based in hope, and used to dampen primal fears of death. A wonderful, eternal afterlife promised to the meek is awfully tempting to those of us who choose a gentle life.

What upsets me about religious certainty is that it implies that I'm missing something--that I'm a goober for not seeing the obvious! I have spent a good portion of my life (I'm 52) reading, observing, meditating, praying, and discussing. And the only conclusion I can come to is that no one has a clue what is really going on in the universe. However I do think that evidence is important--and as of today, I have yet to see even a spec of evidence that Christians have found the secret and that everyone else is wrong. On the other hand I have seen overwhelming evidence that I have evolved over billions of years. I have seen undeniable evidence that the universe is unimaginably huge. I understand that our little rocky planet is spinning around in the fringes of a regular galaxy composed of billions of stars and planets which is only one of billions of galaxies in the universe.

To say with 100% certainty that some creator, who happens to look just like us, slapped together this planet and made it so special (among the trillions of others) that it would eventually need to send its only son here to get nailed to a cross because it screwed up in the first place--knowing that it was going to screw up, mind you--seems egotistical in the least.

Then again, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

Blessings,
Doug

Hi ShadowFire,

Thanks for your response.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

... but again I don't know for sure.

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And thanks for your honesty.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

I think we will be individuals with our memory of our time here on earth.

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Yeah, because if not, our 70+ years here would seem rather pointless, no? If God is omnipotent, why not just hit the FF button to where its going to eventually get to? I mean it already knows what's going to happen. One plausible reason for not doing so is that it wants us to have our earthly memories. It does however seem that 70 years worth of memories might grow a little stale after a few trillion years in heaven.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

We won't have our bodies, so I don't believe we will smell and see. I do feel we will have senses though and feelings.

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So we will be individuals? Not some big ball of communal energy or something? What will we be doing do you think? I mean if we are individuals we will probably get bored just sitting there, no? I'm just using this as an example ShadowFire, but do you think I will be able to do jigsaw puzzles in heaven? How do you think we will keep from getting bored after say a million years?

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

I think there will be animals, but I have no support yet for such.

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Good deal! Because I can tell you this with certainty: If the animals that have touched my life over the years--that have given me so much unselfish love and happiness--are not a part of your God's 'dwelling not built by human hands' then I will have no part of it. Heaven would be Hell.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

Again we can't comprehend.

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Why not?

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

Of all your questions the one I can give a definite answer with scripture is that it will last for infinity. Even the concept of infinity is hard for the human mind to grasp.

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The concept of infinity if pretty easy for me to grasp--first semester calculus did a pretty good job of explaining it. No beginning, no end--never ending. That seem awfully convenient in the theological sense.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFire

If you would like me to further research this topic with my beliefs or if you have more questions, please ask.

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I think you should Shadow. Not for me. For yourself.

Thanks again for your thoughts and ideas.

Cheers,
Doug

With respect to those who would deny the existence of God, the attempt to deny it only proves the case. For, there is no need for me to deny that which does not exist. Take the earth, for example. Some people say it is round. Others say it is flat. Would a dispute have broken out had not some observed the earth moving out away from them along a flat plane? If previous knowledge had not confirmed for them that the earth is round, for what reason would the dispute have arisen? The dispute broke out, however, because there is actual knowledge which is at variance with what the eye actually sees. Therefore, before the refutation and before the dispute, there was a pre-existing truth. For, if we wish to deny a scientific theory which requires its existence as a precondition, how then can it be refuted? The differences here between denial and existence necessarily presuppose the fact.

Therefore, the attempt to deny the existence of God presupposes the truth that God exists. Otherwise, why would any disbeliever make the attempt to advance such denials? An attempt to deny a thing and argue about it is impossible to put forth apart from the existence of the thing. If there were no basis for asserting the existence of a thing, why argue about it? Who would attempt to refute its existence?

Doubt in the existence of God (may He be praised and exalted) only confirms His existence. Those who attempt to validate doubt in God's existence serve only to confirm the existence of something which requires no need of proof. For, the proof of the existence of God is the very demand for such a proof. Efforts to make understandable such concepts only serve to prove that God has been with us since creation.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

Why can't atheists choose to believe that there is no God without harping on it to Christians?

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You don't often see groups of atheists going door-to-door with pamphlets, or declaiming in malls, or lobbying that their beliefs should be inextricably woven into civil law and national constitutions. But then, not all Christians do that - just the most evangelical ones. Same with atheists. You might be surrounded by quietly devout atheists and never know it.

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If all you want to do is ridicule someone who chooses to believe in the Bible, leave it alone.

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Actually - as an aside and not in any way as an encouragement in the context of this discussion or any other thread on this forum - it's worth noting that ridicule is a massively effective and underused aspect of discourse, and I never understand why people are so against it. Perhaps it helps if one thinks of it as satire or irony. In any case, one of the best ways of demonstrating that an idea is ridiculous is to ridicule it. It's entirely fair that ideas should be ridiculed. Ideas don't get hurt - they're just abstract constructs and they can take a bit of kicking about. And there's a long-standing and respectable literary tradition of doing exactly that

I agree though that, for the most part, one should be very wary of ridiculing the people who hold the ideas. That's just a question of courtesy.

Unless the people are politicians or Stevie Nicks. And then you can ridicule them unceasingly, and with impunity.