A Rose For Emily

Virgil,

Did your version actually use the word "rigger"?

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Originally Posted by Chester

Virgil,

Did your version actually use the word "rigger"?

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Not the version I read that Antiquarian posted. But I didn't copy that text above off of that one, off a different one. I didn't even notice that they changed the word to "rigger." Silly.

It's much worse than silly. I understand sensitivities but when we start changing a man’s work, when we start pretending our history didn’t happen the way it happened, then I’ve got a major problem. This is a town (and it is, in some sense I think we all agree, the town itself narrating) that would have definitely used the word "nigger." That’s part of who the town was.

I just assumed it was a typing error, there were a few of those in the link that was posted in this thread.

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Do you think Faulkner meant that women are of low intellect in the following sentence?

Only a man of Colonel Sartoris' generation and thought could have
invented it, and only a woman could have believed it.

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I don't know about intellectually weaker, but there is a sense of sexism there. What year was this story written? I noticed it was published in 1930.

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I thought it was a sign of the time, women didn't generally get invovled in taxes or business.

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Originally Posted by Chester

It's much worse than silly. I understand sensitivities but when we start changing a man’s work, when we start pretending our history didn’t happen the way it happened, then I’ve got a major problem. This is a town (and it is, in some sense I think we all agree, the town itself narrating) that would have definitely used the word "nigger." That’s part of who the town was.

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I absolutely agree. As much as I hate that word, it's part of the story.

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Originally Posted by papayahed

I just assumed it was a typing error, there were a few of those in the link that was posted in this thread.

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I didn't use Antiquarian's link mostly because of those typos. This is the one that I used: http://www.rose-for-emily.com/.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Miss Emily's father, her Alabama cousins, and the townspeople did not want Miss Emily to marry Homer (her father wouldn't have wanted it had he been alive).

I'm not even sure Miss Emily wanted to marry Homer, only that she didn't want to lose his company and for the townspeople to say she was a disgrace for "keeping company" with him, and they did say that, even though they came to dislike the Alabama cousins.

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Exactly, Miss Emily went against everybody's wishes. That's why it's my contention that Miss Emily saw Homer as her chance to escape the rigidity of southern society.

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I know you said you liked it. It doesn't remind me of horror movies, though. I felt terribly sad for Miss Emily. Everyone seemed to be against her. No one seemed to want her to have any happiness at all.

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I'm not sure I'm willing to make that leap, I don't think the townspeople actively wished for her unhappiness I think they called the relatives out of a misguided sense of duty.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I absolutely agree. As much as I hate that word, it's part of the story.



I didn't use Antiquarian's link mostly because of those typos. This is the one that I used: http://www.rose-for-emily.com/.

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:eek: oh.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I never got a sense that Homer was gay. I think he just liked to drink with the other men, but I could certainly be wrong.

I have to disagree. I think the towspeople did like Miss Emily. They didn't like everything she did, but I think they liked her to a point and felt sorry for her. They came to comfort her when her father died, they wanted her to marry, though not Homer, they felt bad for her when people stopped coming for China painting lessons, etc.

I don't dislike people of high status. LOL I don't dislike people of low or middle status. (If I did, I'd have to move from my middle status neighborhood. LOL) I think they saw Miss Emily as a symbol of the "old South," though, and while some of them respected her for it (remember the judge), there were some who even revered her for it.

No, I don't personally think Faulkner thought women were of low intellect. I think he was simply referring to the customs of the old South, of which Miss Emily was a part.

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Anti, I'm not sure most of the non-Americans understand the North/South divide of this country we had. Even in recent years there's somewhat of a cultural divide. I'm not sure I can explain it well. But non-Americans need to be aware that the US had a civil war in 1860-1865 between the north and the South. North had a culture of industrialism, academics, business oriented so that economic classes were more fluid, immigrants. The South had a culture of agriculture, farm laborers, newly freed black slaves, and a history of aristocracy similar to European class structure. The defeat of the South in the Civil War was cataclysmic to the South's culture. Like most of Faulkner, this story is rooted in that history and identity.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Miss Emily didn't go against her father's wishes when he didn't want her to marry, and that's what brought about all the trouble in the story. Had she gone against his wishes and run off with one of her "more suitable" suitors, she never would have met Homer Barron and probably would have never "lost it." But she felt she couldn't go against his wishes.

I'm not sure if Miss Emily wants to escape Southern society or if she just doesn't want it to change, but you could be right. She certainly wasn't going to escape with Homer dead, though, so now I'm getting confused. I admit it. She resists progress when she refuses to let postal numbers be put on her house. She certainly knew she would have to deal with progress in the north. I think time stopped for Miss Emily when her father died. I think she became "stuck" in that time.

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I think the way to understand Emily is that she is bound and constrained by her identity, whether it be by her father on one issue or the town on another. You're right she could have run off with one of her suitors. In fact it reminded me of Lena from Faulkner's great novel (Oh how I love that novel) Light in August, where Lena is pretty much unbound by her identity and runs off with a fast talking ladys man. Of course he winds up abandoning her, pregnant no less. But Lena is savy and survives. Actually Lena is the complete opposite of Emily.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Miss Emily didn't go against her father's wishes when he didn't want her to marry, and that's what brought about all the trouble in the story. Had she gone against his wishes and run off with one of her "more suitable" suitors, she never would have met Homer Barron and probably would have never "lost it." But she felt she couldn't go against his wishes.

I'm not sure if Miss Emily wants to escape Southern society or if she just doesn't want it to change, but you could be right. She certainly wasn't going to escape with Homer dead, though, so now I'm getting confused. I admit it. She resists progress when she refuses to let postal numbers be put on her house. She certainly knew she would have to deal with progress in the north. I think time stopped for Miss Emily when her father died. I think she became "stuck" in that time.

The narrator says:

Thus she passed from generation to generation - dear, inescapable, impervious, tranquil, and perverse.

The word, "pervese" meaning of course, her refusal to pay taxes, etc., but Faulkner is also setting up the ending.

I think Miss Emily wanted things to remain just as they were in her father's day. Some things are ambiguous partly because the narrator goes back and forth in time so very much.

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I don't know, she would rather poison Homer then let him leave.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Anti, I'm not sure most of the non-Americans understand the North/South divide of this country we had. Even in recent years there's somewhat of a cultural divide. I'm not sure I can explain it well. But non-Americans need to be aware that the US had a civil war in 1860-1865 between the north and the South. North had a culture of industrialism, intellectual, business oriented so that economic classes were more fluid. The South had a culture agriculture, farm laborers, newly freed black slaves, and a history of aristocracy similar to European class structure. The defeat of the South in the Civil War was cataclysmic to the South's culture. Like most of Faulkner, this story is rooted in that history and identity.

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Still today there is a bit of that genteel society vibe. People still use "Miss" in front of womens names, it took a while to get used to being called Miss Papaya and it's taking even longer to remember to call people Miss So-and-So.

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Originally Posted by HerGuardian

I have this point. I'm not sur of if it's right or not.


Was Homer gay??


When she had first begun to be seen with Homer Barron, we had said, 'She will marry him.'
Then we said, "She will persuade him yet," because Homer himself had remarked-he liked men, and it was known that he drank with the younger men in the Elks' Club-that he was not a
marrying man.

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HerGuardian, this is what I was wondering too. Maybe Homer was gay and when Miss Emily realized that she wasn't able to hold on to him, that's when she turned to the arsenic.

I have some more ideas brewing, but I'm going to hold off a bit until I become a bit more comfortable using the site and forum.

This is a great discussion; it's good to be here!

I must say I never felt shunned in the South. I happen to like the southern culture. Whatever racism was there I think it's pretty much gone. I got along quite well in the south, and I'm very much a northern yankee. I think it depends on your approach. Homer in the story got along very well. Perhaps I'm a bit like Homer, "cocked hat and cigar" and drinking with the boys. :p :lol: Lucky i never met a Miss Emily type. :D

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

When Homer arrives, the stage is set for the ending. Almost. After Miss Emily buys the poison, Faulkner writes:

She bought the arsenic while the two cousins were visiting her. I think this is important. The narrator says:

Like when she bought the rat poison, the arsenic. That was over a year after they had begunt o say "Poor Emily," and while the two female cousins were visiting her.

When she goes to the pharmacy, Faulkner again describes her as rather corpse like:

...thinner than usual, with cold, haughty black eyes in a face the flesh of which was strained across the temples and about the eye sockets.

Just like a corpse.

But I have to wonder why she bought the poison when the female cousins were there, and she clearly did. Now, I have to wonder if she killed Homer at all, or if he just died. Why does Faulkner even bring the cousins into the story? What purpose do they serve? They come and they depart, this time with the town's blessing, as they were even more Grierson than Miss Emily had been.

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Maybe Emily initially purchased the rat poision intending to kill herself?

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Oh, I loved Savannah, Virgil. I didn't personally feel shunned at all there, and never shunned anyone myself, but I made myself "one of them." I would move back to Savannah today. I just meant the culture is very different there. It's a lot slower paced and more focused on manners and decorum, etc. At least in Savannah.

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I would agree with that. Last week I was complaining about the customer service I was receiving from one of our suppliers, two of my coworkers rave about the customer service and love Beatrice. We determined that I don't chit chat with Beatrice, my coworkers know all about Beatrices family and home life I know nothing. Me and my northern ways wanting to get right to the point.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I don't think so, but I don't know. ;) She did purchase it knowing Homer was coming back after the cousins went home to Alabama. I think it's more likely she knew by then that Homer wasn't the marrying kind and wanted to eventually "move on," so she got the cousins out of the house by telling them she and Homer were marrying, and she ordered the toilet with the initials H.B., then she killed Homer when he returned.

I think if Miss Emily were going to kill herself, she would have done it after her father's death. Right afterwards.

But I'm not sure. ;)

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I agree. I think when the cousins showed up she forced Homers hand on the marriage issue and that's when she realized it wasn't going to happen and bought the arsenic.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I agree with that, Virgil. It's a story that very, very American and very, very southern. It embodies so many qualities of the "old South," that I'm not sure a non-American who hasn't lived in the US could fully understand it.

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I totally disagree with you in that. The South almost has the same charateristics of the Arab world. We have those constraints and manners that sometimes are more of hindrance than valuable. While the North is similar to the Western world with its somewhat loose and liberal characteristics. Finally, I think it's clear to most non-Americans what differences are there between the South and North.

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Originally Posted by HerGuardian

I totally disagree with you in that. The South almost has the same charateristics of the Arab world. We have those constraints and manners that sometimes are more of hindrance than valuable. While the North is similar to the Western world with its somewhat loose and liberal characteristics. Finally, I think it's clear to most non-Americans what differences are there between the South and North.

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I'm glad you understand HerG. I wasn't sure if non-Americans understand the differences and history between our north and south. I guess you can think of it in the sense of European and Arabic customs, although there are distinctions. Actually you might see it as a difference between Americans and Europeans too. But I think these are all superficial similarities. There are very specific distictions between American South and North - the history slavery for instance and the terrible war that was faught over it. I thnk the American civil war may have been the bloodiest war to date, finally surpassed by WWI.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm glad you understand HerG. I wasn't sure if non-Americans understand the differences and history between our north and south. I guess you can think of it in the sense of European and Arabic customs, although there are distinctions. Actually you might see it as a difference between Americans and Europeans too. But I think these are all superficial similarities. There are very specific distictions between American South and North - the history slavery for instance and the terrible war that was faught over it. I thnk the American civil war may have been the bloodiest war to date, finally surpassed by WWI.

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I didn't jump haphazardly at the comparison between the south and the Arab world. Maybe it's due to the lack of historical information you have about Arabs. Here, the society used to be and somewhat still divided into two distinct parts, especially in my country Saudi Arabia. We have the tribal people and city dwellers. The tribal people are very strict concerning customs, apearances and values for both men and women. For example, a man should not allow his cousin female marry people from outside the family. Yet, city dwellers are more open-minded and adjusting themselves to what changes the world may force.


Concerning wars, I think no place over this earth suffered from wars as we had in the Arabian Peninsula. For instance, there was a war between two tribes. It lasted for over 40 years. Many people died and a new generation appeared but it continued. War is an integrated part of our history.



Finally, sorry for the digression but I seized the opporunity of what you said to introduce something about our history and culture. LOL.

When she opened the package at home there was written on the box. under the skull and bones: "For rats."


The druggist suspected that she was going to commit suicide;however, he supplied her with the arsenic. Why??


So the next day we all said, 'She will kill herself'; and we said it would be the best thing.

How come? She isn't an old wounded mule that you better get rid of it. They couldn't keep their traditions and customs; therefore, they wished she kills herself rather than she, as a last representative of the South Values, too gets rid f those constraints.