All the King's Men Group Discussion

OK, done - I couldn't stand not knowing the end so I put some things of to finish this book :lol:

I can not say I think Anne to be using her body. It is odd though that she claims to have loved Willie and then finally, finally settles with Jack :confused: Not sure why that happened... maybe just convenience... I am not sure either whether she thinks she's noble. I know Jack says he thinks her to be, or Sadie says the way he talks about her makes her seem that way... We never do get a good look into anybodies head but Jacks.

I like how, when you read this book, you see how everything you do has consequences. Not only for yourself, but for everyone around you - even for people who are not around you.
Knowing the facts might give you power, but with knowing the truth and telling the truth comes a responsibility. It's not just the happenings, it's also how much you tell about it that brings the following happenings. :)

Live life, don't stand on the side and observe - that will proof to be impossible. At least it was for Jack.

I think she ended up with Jack just becasue Willie endded up dead. And while I do not think she was using her body per sae. She has no right to judge Jack and look down on him when she is sleeping with a married man who already has another mistress. She no longer has the right to act as if she is nobel or to act as if she is better then anybody else. She is an aocmplice in an affair. She sure throws her high-mindeness out the window when it comes to Lucy.

What I do not like about her, is she is a hypocrite. Willie is a womanizer but he does not act as it he is on some great moral highground compared to everyone else.

Finally finished reading.

I think Jack and Anne ended up together because they *had to*. They were the only ones who were left from that group and also they were supposed to be together years ago if they had not messed it up... but then again, they both had some growing up to do, I guess.

In my opinionn, the book is about politics only on the surface. There is a lot on about class division, invisible and unbreakable barriers and personal development than politics.

I find many parallels between this book and Gatsby. In both books, there is an attempt by someone who is from "wrong side of the tracks" to become "better" than what he is meant to be. They try to break the barriers; in some ways they manage to do that but neither of them is properly accepted and acknowledged. And they both end up dead.

In both books, we get a view of the morals of different classes and none of them casts a pleasant view, which is not surprising because we are all humanbeings.

Regarding Willie being singled out... I think he was singled out mostly because of his background and also simply because he wanted to do things differently (not necessarily because they were bad).

Just some quick thoughts but I have to say I have enjoyed the book more than I expected.

Well, I'm reading the Great Gatsby now and I am not far enough yet to tell about class - but it does seem to have the same perspective. I mean, the person telling the story is not the "main" character as in Nick/Jake vs. Gatsby/Willie. And well, Nick doesn't seem too troubled to come along with Tom to see his mistress, while thus being unfaithful to his niece :( He does get drunk though and is a bit sarcastic about it all...

It is definitely an interesting comparison.

And Dark Muse, where is it that Anne seems to think herself so noble? For I can not put my finger on it - when does she act like she's so much better than everybody else?

The way in which she looks down upon Jack for working for Willie. She does not want to be with Jack becasue of what he does, and yet she always wants him to fix her problems for her. She gets all snooty with Jack for digging up dirt upon the judge but then she sleeps with a married man.

She acts all horrified when she finds out that the judge and her father were corrupt, and she always birades Jack for how he talks about his parents.

Thank you for explaining :)

I guess her being snooty about that did not impress me much, it must have slipped my mind :brickwall I do remember she did not want Jack to do it, but after all he did not really wanted it either - but for his search for truth, hoping with all his might it would not be true.

And yes, I do not think she is in any position to judge. Especially as she asks Jack to use stuff he found on her father on her brother. I actually think that is more horrid of her than her snootiness, she knows it will destroy her brothers ideas but asks him to do it so he will become a doctor director. I am still not sure why she wants him so much to be so... Maybe out of snootiness? Or is it really that she cares for her brother and wants him to have a good solid job? Or is it just for appearances?
I am not sure, not sure at all...

Yes I thought that was a bit strange. Adam seemed content in his own way with what he was doing and would have been perfectly happy if he had just been left completely alone.

I also found it a bit ironic that she tells Jack she dosen't care about the money, she never cared about that, and yet she refuses to be with him becaue he does not have a solid idea of what he wants to do for work. She ends up with Willie Stark and she manipulates her brother into getting a cushy job. Yet she does not care about money.

That does not quite fit.

That depends. After all, Willie is not all about money. She might just have fallen in love with him for whatever reason a woman falls in love with a man. After all, she claims towards Jack that she knows Willie better than him, thus seemingly being emotionally involved. If she was just after money, she could have married any rich guy - wasn't one of her fiancées quite wealthy?

And for Adam and that job: I do not know why. Maybe she does not care about money herself, but does want to see her brother safe and sound. Seeing how he now is being taken advantage of by people who know he is the doctor that does not charge, she might want him into that position because she knows he will still be able "to do good" but in a more controlled manner. That does not quite fit either, but I really doubt whether it is only for money...

And her opinion about Jack not knowing what to do with his life. It might be she dislikes his lack of ambition? The fact that he has no drive in life? Willie certainly has that...

And yet, Jack is not good enough for her to be with, but everytime she turns around Jack has to come to her rescue for something or other.

A part of me wanted Jack and Sadie to end up together. After he went out West I was hoping when he came back he would leave Anne to fend for herself from whee on out, but he still kept being her crutch and then shoved aside when he fullfilled his usefullness to her.

Well, Jack was living outside of Time, wasn't he? Maybe she just waited for him to step back into history/present?

Though I do admit - I did not want him to come back to Anne and your idea of Sadie sounds quite appealing :) Though Jack wouldn't have been successful enough for her, she was quite the career girl ;) They would have been an interesting pair. Anne was just always running to him for help... clinging to him almost. She did not even tell him she was with Willie!

I kept hoping that Sadie would have finally had enough of Willie and Jack would finally realize there was no he and Anne and they would end up turning to each other.

Yes it is true that Jack did live very much in the past and he did not relate much to the present/future. Of course this reflects in his once dedication to the study of history, as well as the fact he seems unable to relate to Adam or Anne in anyway but through his memories of the life they use to have together.

Breaking away from the Anne debate. One of the things that interested me more in this story than the characters or the plot was the undercurrent of the idea of a sort of predestination which ran through the story. The little side-debates Jack had regarding religion. And the concept that was conveyed nothing could have happened any differently than it did. The choice of the characters was undercut in a way.

Willie once says to Jack that the reason why Jack is working for him is not because of the money or because he loves Willie, but simply because he is Jack. And Jack reflects the same about Willie, making a comment about how Willie does what he does just because he is Willie. This idea is mentioned throughout with all the characters in various different ways.

I think in a way it is for this reason that both Sadie and Anne end up with Willie. They are with him simply becasue they are who they are and Willie is Willie.

Yeah, "it is because it is and because the persons are who they are". I like that thought, and I think it's quite amazing how the writer can get away with that, without putting some thought of "destiny" in it. Though you do feel it has to go wrong with Willie, and somehow you could feel it had to be Tom who caused it... or catalysed it.

Coming to think of it, the father/son proves to be quite a big theme, with Tom/Willie, Adam/hisDad and Judge/Jack.

And Scheherazade, I just finished the Great Gatsby and I got another resemblance, or maybe rather a contradiction. As All the Kings Men ends with telling us not to focus on the past and live in Time, the Great Gatsby tells us we dream of a better future while the current draws us back into the past (and it is the past which is real and defines us). Or that is how I read it :)

And what is really striking is that both football players are called TOM!

The thing that never really made since to me is just how Jack came to be Willie's right hand man as it were. It seemed that they only had one breif encounter with each other before Willie decided to hire him and made him instantly a confidaunt of his.

Well, Wilie never really needed a big reason. I mean, just the fact that a bartender does not serve him beer but soda made him allow that man a license...

Maybe he saw Jack was in need of some money, heard something good about him and decided to try him for the job to see what happened? Not sure what to do yet, but just seeing a familiar face from the past. Willie did not strike me as a guy who had kept a lot of friends. It is not too clear why he asked Sugarboy either.

But indeed, a thorough reason is not given. Maybe it's just all about first impressions ;) .

Well we do not really see much past history on where Sugarboy came from but he is clearly the most loyal to Willie of the rest of them.

It just seemed odd that Jack would be given such a high posistion on so little, though perhaps it goes back to the "predestination" maybe Willie just know the kind of person Jack was, and that Jack couldn't do anything else but work for Willie.