Sex and the Koran

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Posted by AP : You have an intriguing use of the word proof. Tell me, how do you prove that a text is the word of Allah? Do you have some special formula, or some kind of scientific experimental method or something?

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Exactly AP. But I think this a matter of what someone prefers to believe. I can choose to believe in Bhagavad Gita, Bible, Koran, or even Tolkien's Lord of the Rings books as the holy book which come from a superior being.

Amra, though you said that there's no such thing as 24 years orgasm in Koran, can you please explain then about the angels which would be come the so called rightheous men's wifes when they got to heaven? Cause I was sure that I heard that verse being read from the Koran. FYI, I live precisely infront of a mosque. Are there any husbands available for ladies?

...just want to reiterate........nice to see intelligent rational posts on the site......

Nice to have you aboard Amra. by the looks of it, its gonna be fun!

And Sub......I can't decide if your latest avatar is Alexander Pope.....or Bob Dylan.....hehe...

Baddad...he's the great Jimmy Page :nod:..I saw The Song Remains the Same Dvd last nite...and I fall in love with this man :blush:

"But this is ignoring one of the final Surahs of the Qur'an, "The Surah to the Kafir (Unbeliever)": Say therefore to the unbelievers, "The god which you worship is NOT the God which we worship; and the God which we worship is NOT the god which you worship. So therefore, unto you your god and unto us our God.""

When interpreting the Qur'an, one must be familiar with many aspects of the revelation. For example, the process of revelation lasted 23 years, and the verses came to Prophet Mohammed a.s as instructions, reprimands, or guidance, depending on the obstacles he faced during the prophethood. So, when one quotes from the Qur'an, one must know what the cause of the particular reveled verse was, if it is to be applied only to that particular time, to certain group of people, or if it is universal. The scholars that interpret the Qur'an spend a great deal of reserach on the life of Prophet Mohammed a.s, comparing various hadith, and verses in the Qur'an, creating the context within wich a verse is to be understood and interpreted. The surah "Al-Kaafiroon" was revealed in Mecca, during the time when Prophet Mohammed a.s faced great challanges from the tribe Quraaysh. They opposed his teachings and when seeing that he was gaining influence among people, tried to pursuade him to stop, in every possible way. So, one time they offered him a deal, a kind of a treaty, saying that if he agreed to worship their gods for one period of time, they would in turn worship Allah s.v.t for a period of time, and so there would be mutual understanding and peace between them. In answer to that, Allah s.v.t revealed this verse, telling Mohammed a.s to tell them :"Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship Nor will ye worship that which I worship.Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. "(Surah Al-Kafiroon, Verse 1-6) Therefore, this particular verse is to be applied to idolators. Furthermore, when we talk about worship, most of the time, we assume it to be applied to a deity. But, one can worship other things beside a God, because worship simply means to express admiration, respect, love and devotion in a certain way to a certain object. So, we find that people worship many things, whether they are aware of that or not. If someone lets money rule his life, and become the driving force of one's own being, then that person is worshiping money. The same way, if we are madly in love with another person, and start ascribing godly characteristics to that person, we are in a way worshiping that human being. So, when Allah s.v.t says that we should not worship the way the non believers worship, it encompasses all those different, indirect ways people allow their lust, desires and temptations to overcome their reason and let other things become the object of worship other than the One who is only deserving of that.
As for whether or not we all worship one God, I am going to say yes. We all worship the Creator, the most Merciful, the Eternal, the Just, the Powerful, The Loving, the Forgiving, the Giving, the All Knowing deity that God s.v.t is. The difference is whether or not we are really worshipping HIM, or think that we are doing so, and whether or not we are worshipping HIm in the way He wants us to, or we only think so. That is the part where faith comes into play, and where all of us make our own decisions.

"Amra, though you said that there's no such thing as 24 years orgasm in Koran, can you please explain then about the angels which would be come the so called rightheous men's wifes when they got to heaven? Cause I was sure that I heard that verse being read from the Koran. FYI, I live precisely infront of a mosque. Are there any husbands available for ladies?"

Having righteous wives and a 24 year orgasm is not one and the same. ;) Allah s.v.t mentions many things that people will have in heaven and says that He will reward all of us in the way we deserve it, regardless of whether or not a person is a male or female. One of His attributes is that He is most just, and we believe that the absolute justice is with Him. Whether or not the descriptions of heaven are to be taken literary or not is not sure, but it is said that heaven is nothing like a human being can imagine or perceive in any way. So, all the descritions we find of it are merely to be understood as God's way of showing us in the limited way we can perceive it, that heaven is the place where all wishes and desires will come true, where there is no sorrow or pain, but some sort of ultimate bliss and eternal happieness in the presence of God. The Qur'an mentions that human beings will not have feelings of jealousy, envy, hate or pain in heaven, so one has to imagine that the life as we know it will not exist. The nature of a woman is different than that of the man, and a woman desires different things than a man does. Allah s.v.t knows this best, so He will reward each one of us with the things that we will be satisfied with. The biggest reward will be, as is mentioned in the Qur'an, the feeling that Allah s.v.t is satisfied and the opportunity to look at Him.

Amra,

you say:

<unnecessary from your side to degrade someone else's belief just because you cannot accept it as the truth.>

What do you mean 'unneccessary'? What would you know of my necessities? There are plenty of reasons why I don't accept any scripture as truth. A whole list of them that would take far too long to discuss here.

<The point was that someone claimed a verse or the idea of 24 year orgasm was in the Qur'an,>

Who claimed that? If you want to go around preaching to people about what they should say or think, making claims of truth and proof, you should at least get your facts right.

For your information, Tariq Ali is too sensible to be a Muslim. Again, had you read my original post you would have seen this.

<Also, it is rather childish to set ultimatums to Allah s.v.t and base your belief or non-belief>

I agree. I was trying to respond in an appropriate way to this rather childish quote you made:

<Moses said unto them: Woe unto you! Invent not a lie against Allah, lest He extirpate you by some punishment. He who lieth faileth miserably. (Surah Ta-ha, verse 61)>

Because you do not seem to read my posts with much regard to precision, let me spell it out in a way that you hopefully won't fail to understand: if you suggest that somebody may be 'extirpated' by God/Allah/Krishna/any other s.v.t (all the same to me), for telling a little fib, then I suggest you need to look outside on the real world and observe with some precision how justice (or lack of it) seems to be handed out to the world. As an attempt to illustrate this, I thought I would paint a picture on the same kind of intellectual level that your quote works on.

<It is a matter of respect toward other human beings more than anything else, that calls for certain etiquette when talking to others without ridiculing them or their ideas.>

I hadn't noticed you observing this point too well. Quoting some claptrap about my (or Tariq's) possible forthcoming demise due to telling lies (gosh what a terrible crime! - absolutely shocking!), sounds very much like you are insulting my intelligence. It, quite frankly, sounds very childish.

Ok. No point going into circles. Thanks for the discussion.

Well, Amra, thanks at least for suggesting that the 24 year orgasm is not in the Koran, which was the question at the heart of this thread originally (although I would have to read the whole of the Koran before your suggestion could be seen as nothing more than <he said, she said> kind of argument, and unfortunately I don't have that kind of time to spare - especially when there are so many great books on my bookshelf)

AP

Please stop burying personal comments in posts regarding someone else's reading comprehension or posting style, they are considered ad hominem.

For example, there are many here who don't use english as their first language, or maybe have issues with dyslexia, etc. that effect their writing. They still have a right to post their thoughts freely without the above type of comments ensuing.

If I see any more in this, as usual, emotional discussion, I will have to close this topic.

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Main Entry: ad ho·mi·nem
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
Date: 1598
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

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Logos,

I presume your post refers to me. If I have in any way offended anyone with dyslexia, or any other language problem, then, of course, I wholeheartedly apologise. If you are suggesting that I have no right to comment on somebody making a false claim against me, with regard to what is or is not in the Koran; and what I have or have not said in a post, then I cannot offer apologies on such a matter.

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Originally Posted by Amra

The nature of a woman is different than that of the man, and a woman desires different things than a man does. Allah s.v.t knows this best, so He will reward each one of us with the things that we will be satisfied with. The biggest reward will be, as is mentioned in the Qur'an, the feeling that Allah s.v.t is satisfied and the opportunity to look at Him.

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So you're saying that in heaven there still exist such thing as the difference of nature/desire of man and woman?

And I think you contradic your self here:

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Posted by Amra: Allah s.v.t mentions many things that people will have in heaven and says that He will reward all of us in the way we deserve it, regardless of whether or not a person is a male or female

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And more, you said, "He will reward each one of us with the things that we will be satisfied with". Is this mean that each people would get different prize in heaven then?

And by the way you haven't answer my questions, and please, answer them directly with Yes or No (explanation added after that is ok):
1. Was I mis-heard about the verse in Koran which stated that there are angels provided as wifes to men in heaven? From your explanation, you implicitly answered that there is a verse which stated such thing. DO correct me if I'm wrong.
2. Then next Q, is there any similiar "benefit" for women? Meaning, are there He-angels available as husbands for women?

Oh Logos, you're such a party ruiner ;)..Please don't close this thread.

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Originally Posted by Logos

If I see any more in this, as usual, emotional discussion, I will have to close this topic.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Prophet Mohammed a.s
Allah s.v.t

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What do the letters after each of these names stand for?

"So you're saying that in heaven there still exist such thing as the difference of nature/desire of man and woman?"

Yes, there will be differences between men and women. We will not be sexless angels in heaven, but will be humans, although as I mentioned, some human characteristics will not be present.

"And more, you said, "He will reward each one of us with the things that we will be satisfied with". Is this mean that each people would get different prize in heaven then?

Yes, people will be rewarded differently, based on their deeds in this life. There are differenet levels of heaven, and numerous hadiths hint on the fact that people will be ascending to the higher levels, based on their deeds. For example, one hadith talks about the importance of learning the Qur'an, and it says that when a person comes into heaven, Allah s.v.t will tell him to recite the Qur'an and climb the stairs of heaven, and that he should stop there where he finishes reciting the last letter of the Qur'an. So, that shows that there will be differences in the heaven.

"1. Was I mis-heard about the verse in Koran which stated that there are angels provided as wifes to men in heaven? From your explanation, you implicitly answered that there is a verse which stated such thing. DO correct me if I'm wrong."

There is a verse that says there will be virgins and righteous women provided for men. Men and women can choose to live together as they did in this life, or a men can have more than one wife.

"2. Then next Q, is there any similiar "benefit" for women? Meaning, are there He-angels available as husbands for women?"

There is no mention of "he-angels" for women in the Qur'an. The woman is not allowed to have more than one husband in this life, and persumably will not have more than one husband in the after life.

"What do the letters after each of these names stand for?"

a.s is the abbreviation for alleihi salam... meaning peace be upon him, and is said after one mentions a name of any prophet out of respect for them.

s.v.t is the abbreviation for subhanahu we teaAllah... and means "all praise be to Him".

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Originally Posted by Sitaram

The 24 year duration is only upon the condition that one is not wearing a prophylactic.

Seriously folks.... speaking extemporaneously from my aging and failing memory, having read the "MEANING" of the Glorious Qu'ran by Pickthall from cover to cover (notice that only the original Arabic qualifies as the true Qu'ran, and any translation is refered to as 'THE MEANING",...

There is no mention of orgasm. There one or more passages which mention that a male in paradise shall receive 72 or so Houris, known (in the carnal sense), by neither humans nor Jinn spirits. There is also some mention of young boys, but nothing specific.

You know, since you bring up this topic: a few years ago, I had a conversation with a Muslim about such things. His argument to me was "Well, in heaven/paradise of course we shall have a need for food and drink and sex." He seemed to feel that this conclusion was quite natural. He was angered because I had been pointing out that the Qu'ran's rivers of honey and milk and wine sounded to me like rather messey feeding-trough images (we shall refrain from mentioning any farm animal by name.)

Jesus put the Pharisees and Saducees in their play by saying that, in heaven, people shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but shall be like the angels, the bodiless noetic ones.

I just did a google.com search on "heavenly wh@rehouse" (change the @ to an "o") and came up with over 100 hits. One of those pages listed the following verses from the Qu'ran:

Koran 78:31 As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.

Koran 37:40-48 ...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.

Koran 44:51-55 ...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)

Koran 52:17-20 ...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them...

Koran 55:56-57 In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"

Koran 55:57-58 Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"

Koran 56:7-40 ...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "

Koran 55:70-77 "In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before.. In the Hadiths, Mohammed goes one step further and expands the promise of virgins to include a free sex market where there is no limit of the number of sexual partners. Women and young boys are on display as if in a fruit market where you can choose the desired ripeness.

Quote from Hadiths (the oral tradition considered second to the Qu'ran)

Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34 Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them."



Koran 52:24 Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well- guarded.

Koran 56:17 Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19 And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.

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Since some muslims claim that polygamy is only to care for widows in distress in this imperfect world, why take even one more wife in a place where no woman is poor and in need of financial sheltering? Was the earthly wife a piece of used garbage after using her here, so that a new virgin is preferable? And they are to have virgins who are not virgins themselves?