Gone With the Wind

I got curious but didn´t find weebeejammin.

In fact the bricks in that country are very expensive. But it seems they´ve got tourists there. I thought maybe anything like Brazilian Beto Carrero World, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beto_Carrero_World, but more inclined to be a model of national identity with political instituitions.

Back to "Gone With The Wind:

"danik, I cannot say definitively that some blacks in the south who remained in the service of their former owners, would criticize freed blacks in the manner that mammy did, but what she said rings true to me both as something that likely happened, and as something consistent with the context of book.

to the latter point, its less about blind race identification, and more about social class and loyalty. there are numerous instances in the book where certain people are referred to as "white trash." mammy also has a tremendous maternal devotion to scarlett, both for scarlett's sake, and for the memory of her deceased mother ellen. there is a bit of snobbery in the first part, but a commendable selfless spirit in the second. given that, its easy to see how mammy could think what she did concerning her fellow blacks who have less social standing and manners, but more importantly, have given up their charges."

Good argument, Bounty. Yes, Mammy´s comment is certainly coherent with the book's point of view. Another good point you make is about status. Mammy feels herself as part of Scarlett's family and in that capacity superior to the loafing ex-slaves, who once they were free, didn´t feel any connection to their former owners any more.

Mammy also fears superior to the loafers, in that, even under changed circumstances, she continues to work and be useful to "her family". This is a very positive trait of her personality, but characters like Mammy somehow distract from the darker sides of slavery.

have you ever seen the movie Django unchained danik? its been a long time and so the details are fuzzy but the broad strokes should suffice. Jamie foxx and Christopher waltz are running around the movie as bounty hunters and with the goal of freeing Jamie's wife, they end up at a plantation owned by Leonardo de caprio where Samuel L Jackson serves as a house slave. eventually a wild shooting match ensues and Jackson defends his master, attempting to thwart foxx and waltz's rescue attempt. it was kinda distasteful to watch and Jackson was even asked about it after the film. "how could you play such a part!"

I think if gone with the wind revealed "the darker side of slavery" it couldn't have been the book it was. we tolerate and even somewhat root for the main characters because they haven't engaged in that dark side and at times are even beneficent.

to catch up on the story---holy cow there's been a lot!

Ashley returned from prison camp, tara is at risk from scalawags, scarlett threw herself at Ashley and tried to get him to run away with her, Rhett's rich and in prison, scarlett throws herself at him but Rhett has to reject the offer because he needs to protect the location of his money (which is what scarlett's after), she finds out frank kennedy has money and she effectively steals him away (with a lie) from her younger sister and marries him in order to save tara. she bought a sawmill with money Rhett eventually gave her, frank is scandalized because she doesn't act like a proper lady (I mentioned earlier that scarlett is a sort of early feminist) and scarlett's pregnant.

the sections describing scarlett's "man-like" behavior are interesting---will share those soon...

oh---"weebeejammin" is Sancho probably referring to an old reggae song (I don't recall the title) that has the lyrics "we be jammin'" in it.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

I am going to read this book soon and what tempted me to read this book though I have already read it two times is because this book has so many things bearing resemblances to the village I grew up and what interests me more in this book in point of fact that despite the fact that different geographies hold us and we speak different languages and brought up different socioeconomic setups and cultural backgrounds deep down all of us live with the same values and we all are humans before anything else. Our identities as Asians, Americans, Africans, whites, blacks are skin deep.

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there is a line at the end of black panther where t'challa says something like "and the things that join us together are greater than the things that separate us."

I don't know if I buy that, and similarly I don't know that I buy blazes' "deep down all of us live with the same values..."

we may indeed be "humans before anything else" but I think that only works as a rallying point when the world is being attacked by aliens. and even then, there would likely be a fair number of humans wanting to join the alien side.

and again, the irony is saying such things in reference to gone with the wind, which is just full of contrasting and conflicting cultures and values.

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Originally Posted by bounty

have you ever seen the movie Django unchained danik? its been a long time and so the details are fuzzy but the broad strokes should suffice. Jamie foxx and Christopher waltz are running around the movie as bounty hunters and with the goal of freeing Jamie's wife, they end up at a plantation owned by Leonardo de caprio where Samuel L Jackson serves as a house slave. eventually a wild shooting match ensues and Jackson defends his master, attempting to thwart foxx and waltz's rescue attempt. it was kinda distasteful to watch and Jackson was even asked about it after the film. "how could you play such a part!"

I think if gone with the wind revealed "the darker side of slavery" it couldn't have been the book it was. we tolerate and even somewhat root for the main characters because they haven't engaged in that dark side and at times are even beneficent.

to catch up on the story---holy cow there's been a lot!

Ashley returned from prison camp, tara is at risk from scalawags, scarlett threw herself at Ashley and tried to get him to run away with her, Rhett's rich and in prison, scarlett throws herself at him but Rhett has to reject the offer because he needs to protect the location of his money (which is what scarlett's after), she finds out frank kennedy has money and she effectively steals him away (with a lie) from her younger sister and marries him in order to save tara. she bought a sawmill with money Rhett eventually gave her, frank is scandalized because she doesn't act like a proper lady (I mentioned earlier that scarlett is a sort of early feminist) and scarlett's pregnant.

the sections describing scarlett's "man-like" behavior are interesting---will share those soon...

oh---"weebeejammin" is Sancho probably referring to an old reggae song (I don't recall the title) that has the lyrics "we be jammin'" in it.

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I haven´t seen Django, but I think I see what you mean. It is not always easy to take sides in those situations.

"I think if gone with the wind revealed "the darker side of slavery" it couldn't have been the book it was. we tolerate and even somewhat root for the main characters because they haven't engaged in that dark side and at times are even beneficent."
I fully understand you. But there are a lot of authors who write about the "dark side" like Faulkner (foremost, I suppose you have read something byI am him) and Ralph Elison.
I am very curious about the sections on Scarlett´s "man-like" behaviour. What I find so compelling about this character is her independence and resourcefulness. Of course she makes her victims: the sister loses her husband, but the estate is saved.

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Originally Posted by bounty

there is a line at the end of black panther where t'challa says something like "and the things that join us together are greater than the things that separate us."

I don't know if I buy that, and similarly I don't know that I buy blazes' "deep down all of us live with the same values..."

we may indeed be "humans before anything else" but I think that only works as a rallying point when the world is being attacked by aliens. and even then, there would likely be a fair number of humans wanting to join the alien side.

and again, the irony is saying such things in reference to gone with the wind, which is just full of contrasting and conflicting cultures and values.

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Kudoz to you, Bounty! You are an attentive reader who doesn´t become pray to well sounding statements.

"we may indeed be "humans before anything else" but I think that only works as a rallying point when the world is being attacked by aliens. and even then, there would likely be a fair number of humans wanting to join the alien side."
Lol! I have to agree with you. And if the humans that join the aliens are more than the rallying ones, we will all be done in!

i appreciate your kind thoughts danik, thank you.

I tried reading as I lay dying a long time ago but could not get into it so I gave up, and I have Ellison's invisible man but haven't read that yet.

frank's criticism of scarlett takes place over a handful of pages, 529-535. i'll put a representative collection of the snippets here (the context is her buying and operating the sawmill):

"frank, in common with all men he knew, felt that a wife should be guided by her husband's superior knowledge, should accept his opinions in full and have none of her own."

"but the things scarlett set her mind on were unthinkable."

"go into business for herself! it was unthinkable. there were no women in business in atlanta. in fact, frank had never heard of a woman in business anywhere. if women were so unfortunate as to be compelled to make a little money to assist their families...they made it in quiet womanly ways...[and] kept themselves at home while doing it."

"selling lumber in town! that was the worst of all...frank wished he could hide in the dark...and see no one. his wife selling lumber!"

"it was bad enough that she had intruded herself among strange rough workmen, but it was still worse for a woman to show publicly that she could do mathematics like that."

"on top of everything else, she was actually making money out of the mill, and no man could feel right about a wife who succeeded in so unwomanly an activity."

"frank was not only amazed at his wife's views and her plans but at the change which had come over her in the few months since their marriage. this wasn't the soft, sweet, feminine person he had taken to wife. in the brief period of their courtship, he thought he had never know a woman more attractively feminine in her reactions to life, ignorant, timid and helpless. now her reactions were all masculine. despite her pink cheeks and dimples and pretty smiles, she talked and acted like a man."

"...scarlett was guided by no one but herself and was conducting her affairs in a masculine way which had the whole town talking. and, thought frank miserably, probably talking about me too for letting her act so unwomanly."

"'a woman out to pay more attention to her home and her family and not be gadding about like a man.'"

A while back I read a collection of Slave Narratives. They were oral histories of former slaves, written down in the 1930s. The people who wrote down these stories were participating in the Federal Writers Program which was part of the WPA during the Great Depression. It is obvious that some of the writers took more care in rendering the narratives than others. At any rate the stories are fascinating. Many of them use phonetic spelling to render the pronunciation of the former slaves. A few of the story tellers expressed a little nostalgia for being enslaved, but I think that was largely based on how badly they suffered under Reconstruction. Not too many of them got the “forty acres and a mule” General Sherman promised. I’ve often wondered how different our history would be if Abe Lincoln had presided over Reconstruction rather than Andrew Johnson.

https://youtu.be/HeQXl_kM2rQ

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Originally Posted by bounty

i appreciate your kind thoughts danik, thank you.

I tried reading as I lay dying a long time ago but could not get into it so I gave up, and I have Ellison's invisible man but haven't read that yet.

frank's criticism of scarlett takes place over a handful of pages, 529-535. i'll put a representative collection of the snippets here (the context is her buying and operating the sawmill):

"frank, in common with all men he knew, felt that a wife should be guided by her husband's superior knowledge, should accept his opinions in full and have none of her own."

"but the things scarlett set her mind on were unthinkable."

"go into business for herself! it was unthinkable. there were no women in business in atlanta. in fact, frank had never heard of a woman in business anywhere. if women were so unfortunate as to be compelled to make a little money to assist their families...they made it in quiet womanly ways...[and] kept themselves at home while doing it."

"selling lumber in town! that was the worst of all...frank wished he could hide in the dark...and see no one. his wife selling lumber!"

"it was bad enough that she had intruded herself among strange rough workmen, but it was still worse for a woman to show publicly that she could do mathematics like that."

"on top of everything else, she was actually making money out of the mill, and no man could feel right about a wife who succeeded in so unwomanly an activity."

"frank was not only amazed at his wife's views and her plans but at the change which had come over her in the few months since their marriage. this wasn't the soft, sweet, feminine person he had taken to wife. in the brief period of their courtship, he thought he had never know a woman more attractively feminine in her reactions to life, ignorant, timid and helpless. now her reactions were all masculine. despite her pink cheeks and dimples and pretty smiles, she talked and acted like a man."

"...scarlett was guided by no one but herself and was conducting her affairs in a masculine way which had the whole town talking. and, thought frank miserably, probably talking about me too for letting her act so unwomanly."

"'a woman out to pay more attention to her home and her family and not be gadding about like a man.'"

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Lollolol!

Thanks, Bounty! Now I know why i erased Frank Kennedy from my memory. Margareth Mitchell as feminist is simply wonderful.
This is a summing up of it all!

"frank was not only amazed at his wife's views and her plans but at the change which had come over her in the few months since their marriage. this wasn't the soft, sweet, feminine person he had taken to wife. in the brief period of their courtship, he thought he had never know a woman more attractively feminine in her reactions to life, ignorant, timid and helpless. now her reactions were all masculine. despite her pink cheeks and dimples and pretty smiles, she talked and acted like a man."

I don't know enough about history to know what positive things were don't during reconstruction, but the picture the author paints of it is pretty bad. it seems a lot less about how the north could help rebuild the south and more about how the north can punish and subjugate the south. its easy to see how the all of the south could have resented the north.

the Lincoln question is a good one---he seems to have a reputation for being merciful. I read a bio of him not long ago and learned (if I remember rightly) he was an advocate for the movement of repatriating the slaves back to Africa.

danik to add more to the frank kennedy conversation---he's actually a mild mannered and fore bearing husband. the war cost him a great deal both physically and mentally and he just wants peace. scarlett is partial hellcat to him, and ironically, has contempt for him because of his weakness as regards her.

I have some quote, I don't know where I got it, that seems a bit fitting: “He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

additional points about the nostalgia of the times---scarlett was riding around atlanta in a buggy driven by uncle peter, aunt pitty's house slave. some yankee women speak really badly about blacks to scarlett, within ear shot of uncle peter as if he isn't there. scarlett makes a defense of him, but he is still deeply upset that her defense didn't rise to the level of standing he felt he had in the family.

Gerald, scarlett's father, just died in a riding accident, and one of the house slaves, pork, dug his grave, and cried the next day at the funeral.

there is something really interesting going on now---everyone is blaming suellen for geralds death, and for betraying their love of the south. there is a southern custom of funeral goers speaking over the coffin of the deceased and will and Ashley are sure some of the neighbors are going to lay into suellen, and since will is about to marry her, he wont stand for it. he seems to have some strategy to head that off at the pass, and im just on the cusp of finding out if it works or not...

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Originally Posted by hamdansiddiqui

It was a fabulous book. Margaret Mitchell wrote just one novel during her entire life and it became an instant best seller. It was a quality novel.

The central character was of Scarllet O'Hara. After facing the difficulties of losing her mother and hunger, Scarllet wanted to do only one thing- make enough money to tell the world to go to hell.
She may have taken some sordid ways to achieve her aim-such as marrying her sister's beaux etc. But all in all she had a greater sense of responsibility than Suellen or Carreen.
Perhaps the worst character was of Suellen. She had no sense of responsibility. And I can't quite figure out why Carreen was so hooked up on the Tarleton boy.

Understandbly Scarllet's high-headedness came from facing the fears of hunger, insecurity etc. She made a strong decision that she never wanted to be hungry again and she was prepared to go to any length to achieve her ambition.

She made mistakes as well. She never really recognized Rhett love for her. She had this illusion of Ashley dashing gentleman, however in the end she did discover what a coward Ahsley was! But above all she failed to recognize the graceful,sophisticated and mature personality possessed by Melanie Wilkes because she always judged her subjectively.

In my opinion this novel gives the reader a lesson to take life as a roller coaster ride and be prepared to face courageously anything that life throws at you. Just like after losing Rhett, Scarllet aimed to earn back his love and devotion and she thought that after all "Tomorrow is just another day!".

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I think the two best parts of the summary are the mentions of scarlett's responsibility in the face of life's trials. its one of the things that make her a commendable character when she seems to be lacking in other ways.

and the admonition to be courageous in the midst of the roller coaster ride.

im not convinced, at least so far, that she doesn't recognize Rhett's love for her (maybe that happens later)---my sense is that despite her somewhat enlightened and feminist approach to life, she sees Rhett as a sort of scoundrel that she couldn't really ever be with. her attraction to him is at odds with her southern gentility.

interestingly, this was hams first and seemingly only post!

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Originally Posted by bounty

I don't know enough about history to know what positive things were don't during reconstruction, but the picture the author paints of it is pretty bad. it seems a lot less about how the north could help rebuild the south and more about how the north can punish and subjugate the south. its easy to see how the all of the south could have resented the north.

the Lincoln question is a good one---he seems to have a reputation for being merciful. I read a bio of him not long ago and learned (if I remember rightly) he was an advocate for the movement of repatriating the slaves back to Africa.

danik to add more to the frank kennedy conversation---he's actually a mild mannered and fore bearing husband. the war cost him a great deal both physically and mentally and he just wants peace. scarlett is partial hellcat to him, and ironically, has contempt for him because of his weakness as regards her.

I have some quote, I don't know where I got it, that seems a bit fitting: “He certainly seemed to have all the qualities of a gentleman, but the interesting kind who knows exactly when to stop behaving like one.”

additional points about the nostalgia of the times---scarlett was riding around atlanta in a buggy driven by uncle peter, aunt pitty's house slave. some yankee women speak really badly about blacks to scarlett, within ear shot of uncle peter as if he isn't there. scarlett makes a defense of him, but he is still deeply upset that her defense didn't rise to the level of standing he felt he had in the family.

Gerald, scarlett's father, just died in a riding accident, and one of the house slaves, pork, dug his grave, and cried the next day at the funeral.

there is something really interesting going on now---everyone is blaming suellen for geralds death, and for betraying their love of the south. there is a southern custom of funeral goers speaking over the coffin of the deceased and will and Ashley are sure some of the neighbors are going to lay into suellen, and since will is about to marry her, he wont stand for it. he seems to have some strategy to head that off at the pass, and im just on the cusp of finding out if it works or not...

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I don´t either. The few authors I´ve read about the North American South in general: Faulkner, Ellison and Tony Morrison paint sombre pictures of decadence. One has to remember that like in Brazil the farmers that depended on the slaves to manage their farms lost much more than the industrialized North. As for the former slaves, they got their liberty, but it probably took a very long time until they were accepted and absorved by the market as paid workers.

Atlanta seems to be a kind of city where North and South meets after the war and Margareth Mitchell seems to be very good in showing this post-war atmosphere and it´s several voices.

As for Fred Kennedy, he seems to be an average and very conventional man who is simply subjugated by Scarllet´s strong personallity.

Suellen is Scarlet´s younger sister? I don´t remember anything about her.

Editing the post above is again not possible, but here are 10 points summing up the slave economical system in the North American South which seem worth to look at:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111220....net/node/2749

I appreciate the link danik, i'll have to go back and read it more carefully. some of the things in the list I found pretty surprising.

in a recent conversation with scarlett, Rhett pointed out how she rode roughshod over frank, because he let her. Rhett's position is that its frank's fault for not having "beaten her with a buggy whip."

and holy cow! scarlett was attacked, frank and Ashley are in the KKK and they all went out to kill the attackers, frank's dead, Ashley's wounded, and Rhett saved the day by getting belle watling (the woman who runs the local house of ill-repute) to testify all the culprits had spend the evening with her and her fellow ladies of the evening---and Rhett just proposed to scarlett!

Now you´ve come to the point that irk´s me so much: how KKK is presented in the novel. When I read the novel I still didn´t realize the power of it and that it exists to our days.

have you seen the movie Braveheart danik?