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It is true that people make more fuss about religious differences but in my opinion that is due to the fact that racial discrimination is socially more 'acceptable'. It is embedded in our daily lives and we all do it without realising in many cases. Like baddad suggested 'you all look alike' is only one example. All blacks are good athletes, all Indians are business minded... Even though these look like simple innocent assumption, they only serve to emphasize the differences.
Well, it was nice talking to you all. This will be my last entry until I come back from Iraq. Take care everyone; I'll be back.
Although what I write below is a comment on a film and not the Bible, as this thread is concerned with, the points I make are relevant to this discussion and so I include them here:
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The dust of reviews has settled on this film and so: the time has come, perhaps, for a more dispassionate, a more considered, a more reflective, little review. Perhaps review is not quite the right word; perhaps what I have written here is just a comment, but it is no less provocative than the most provocative youve read thusfar and I hope you will find here some refreshing and intelligent insight into the way the film was made and perceived. My comments here also have some relevance to a range of Biblical/religious issues.
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This film is not intended to be a masterful historical documentary as, say, Ken Burns' work on the Civil War or one of many others done in the first century of the existence of the cinema. Gibson's work is far from possessing what some might call an intellectual poverty in its pretensions at historical documentary. Shawn Rosenheim says all TV documentaries possess an intellectual poverty. If Rosenheim is right the visual media are simply incapable of producing historical documentary.1 And if Rosenheim is wrong, as I tend to think he is, historical documentary of an event 2000 years ago is not impossible. It is, rather, a recreation. We simply do not know enough about the event Gibson is recreating to claim that what we are seeing is a documentary.
We all know that Gibson did not take his camera crew to downtown Jerusalem or into the little hamlet of Nazereth in some kind of time-warp to produce an anti-Jewish, anti Roman clip for the evening news. Even if he had and he then produced for us all an evening two hour special, spectacle, called "the crucifixion," there would still be questions about visual manipulation and the program's service in the name of directing popular thought toward a new religious movement. New religious movements have always had trouble getting popular exposure unless they can be associated with conflict and violence, eccentricity and the bizarre, indeed, anything visually stimulating and distracting.
No one would claim that Gibson's is a neutral recording of objective events. It is a construct operating from a certain point of view. It is a rhetorical argument achieved through the selection and combination of elements that both reflect and project a world, a world view, a cosmology if you like. It is achieved by certain cinematic conventions that try to erase any signs of cinematic artificiality. An ideology is promoted by linking the effect of reality to social values and institutions in such a way that these values seem natural and self-evident. In the case of Mel Gibson's work, a work that I found quite stimulating in its own way, the ideology is simply and strongly: fundamentalist Christianity.
I've never been attracted to Christianity in any of its fundamentalist forms. But I liked this film. Film can often get to people in ways that words, ideas and simple beliefs cannot. It was not because of its historical accuracy that I liked it. I liked All the Presidents Men and a number of other films based on and rooted in some historical theme. Rarely are historical films accurate; the main reason they seem so is that the people watching them know so little about the theme, the event, that it seems plausible to them. Sadly, but truly, we know so little about the events of the life of Jesus of Nazereth that a good script writer, a good cinematographer and a big band of men and women can bring something to life that may never have happened at all.
Bertrand Russell wrote in his Why I'm Not a Christian that, in a court of law, there is little evidence for even the existence of Jesus let alone his manner of death. Historicity simply does not exist when it comes to the events in the life of a man who has had a profound affect, I believe, on history. Of course, Russell says he does believe Jesus existed; he just wanted to make a point about the paucity of historical evidence. What we believe in life and what we know usually exist in two separate worlds, although hopefully their assumptions are not totally blind. What people who are believers and what they are as knowers, so to speak, about Jesus are radically separate. The distance between the pulpit and the academic chair of religion has been widening for at least two centuries. In fact for millions of men and women these days historicity is irrelevant to their beliefs. History has become, for those millions, what it was for Henry Ford: bunk or was it bunkum? My optimistic muse gives you 4/5, Mel and my pessimistic muse a 2/5.
As a sort of epilogue to this brief comment on the film: one of the main reasons many people are turning to Movements like the Baha'i Faith is that historicity is important to them. Religions that have grown up in the modern age face different problems of historicity, often too much rather than too little information and distortion by opponents and critics whose prime aim is to create dissention.
The Baha'i Faith, to stay with this example, confined as it is to only 6 million adherents, has grown slowly since the mid-nineteenth century. The originating impulse for each of the major religions of history, an impulse that led to the phenomenon of revelation or some defining religious experience has receded so far into history as to be accessible to us in only a very limited and unsatisfactory degree. Far otherwise with the work of the Founder of the Baha'i Faith. The details of His life are massively documented. And one could choose other claimants in modern history as well but that would lead to prolixity here.
History has a thousand faces, a thousand forms, and Mel Gibson has given us some very stimulating ones, perhaps a little too visually acute, in his film, The Passion of the Christ. They will serve for some of the millions who watched it to bring them closer to One whom Baha'u'llah, the Baha'i Faith's founder, said "when Christ was crucified the world wept with a great weaping." Bill Graham wept; many stayed home; millions viewed the film as it went into the top ten money spinners in cinema history two weeks ago. Some were appauled; some stimulated. To each his own.-Ron Price, Tasmania. :brow:
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Ron Price is a retired teacher, aged 60. He taught for 30 years in primary, secondary and post-secondary schools. He lives with his wife, Chris, in Tasmania. Their 3 children are now aged: 39, 34 and 27. Ron moved to Australia from Canada in 1971. He has written three books since 1999. They are all available on the internet for free. He has been a member of the Baha'i Faith for 45 years. :cool:
FRUSTRATINGLY INEXACT
The ancient apocalyptic writers of Daniel and The Book of Revelation gave much of their attention to the final times.....we suppose that our days are the worst of days and thus are the real prelude to the end....It is legitimate to draw what comfort we can from those works, but we should do so with the awareness that we are only the latest in a long line of readers who have felt that the works were composed with themselves in mind.-John Gabel and Charles Wheeler, The Bible As Literature: An Introduction, Oxford UP, NY, 1986, p.143.
The Book of Revelation is the Master Bridge revealed by Christ for the followers of all religions leading to the Kingdom of God on earth. -Ruth Moffett, New Keys to the Book of Revelation, Baha’i Publishing Trust, New Delhi, 1977, p.xvii.
Full of colour, action, concerned
with apocalyptic futurity,
a great succession of empires
going back to Babylon
in the sixth century BC
and ending in eschatology
with its visions of good and evil
meeting in a cosmic theatre
of moral and mortal combat,
with comfort to the suffering
then and now in these end times,
last days, in a frustratingly inexact
medium of symbolism and metaphor
like some gigantic crossword puzzle,
testing one’s spiritual acuity
and understanding of ancient numerology,
gematria, obscure literary devices
and allegorical methods.
And just who is it
that has the Master Key?
Ron Price
24 August 1996
Because God is all powerful. He can do whatever he wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gozeta
This answer sounds like something my exboyfriend would which is not an answer at all. No offense meant, Aramis. If Great Spirit (God) truly used man to write the Bible then how can man posses free will. If we have free will and the Great Spirit took our man to write the Bible then it is logical that Great Spirit took away our free will. Yeah, he could have given it back when Great Spirit was through but do you honestly think we would know exactly what the correct interuptation of the Bible is? We are all extremely differant from one another with our own ideals. So how does one determine the true meaning of the Bible?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramis
Ancestor, I'll try to answer those questions one at a time, according to what I believe. First of all, I don't believe that He would make anyone who was unwilling write the Bible. He merely gave those men the inspiration to write the truth. I also believe that He had the power to give people insight when they were compiling the Bible. I don't know what you mean by your last question. Could you please rephrase it?
How would you determine the Bible to be the true word of God? My faith is far different from most faiths and when you stated, 'Because God is all powerful, he can do whatever he wants.' It of what my exboyfriend would say to every question I asked him about his faith. I for one have not read the Bible from cover to cover because I cannot fully believe everything it is true. I feel that man's interuptation has tainted what the Great Spirit truly meant for us. I also have some problems with the people of other faiths and not the faith of their church. I have met the coldest people who make you feel they do not have faith at all. My faith fulfills me each as it grows with each breath I take. I learned to forgive those whom have committed a violent act against me. But I find most of the people around my town here who go to church every Sunday do not forgive. They also do not like Spiritualist either and that is okay they have their spiritual path and I have mine.
People will always look on things with human eyes. They have their own unique perception of the world.
Think about it, and try to fit religion into it, any religion or belief. In the end it will be a personal belief that originated from the self and has been shaped and influenced by the world around it.
Ancestor- Since I believe the Bible to be true, that is what I would base all of my arguments on. Since you do not believe it to be true, none of my arguments would mean anything to you. As I do not want the conversation to go around in circles like that, I think I'll end my part of it here. (I'm only writing this so that you don't think I didn't read your post.)
Bible has in it the things happened, happening and things to come...It is the prophecy God has allowed and will always be true.We people have the choices but remembr that God is all knowing He knows things watever we will do.maybe thats why Bible is where we look up to and not in skin color.anybody agree?hope so.....
Tiny explorer, I have to walk the line on this one because I believe people can turn to the Bible and find the answers they seek. But no all of us do find answers in the Bible and I am one of them. I feel if you have a strong faith within yourself and the Bible then that is a wonderful and beautiful thing. My faith however takes a side road because I do not feel that the Bible is 100% true and that it just me. However, there are stories within the Bible that I feel are true. I just cannot believe that man has not placed mans own ideals into the translation of the Bible. I am not saying that it was not given to humans by Great Spirit (God) but I just feel humans threw in their own ideals. Free will has a way of twisting the truth sometimes. Eventually we all have to decide what is true and not true with everything in our lives. As you get older your ideals will change and that means growing with you. My ideals grow with each breath I take and expand my being.
Some find faith in art. Others find art in faith. An Ark may be an Odyssey or an Odyssey your Ark.
Is it salvation that we seek? We must be doomed in order to be saved. How doomed? Saved from what? Saved by what? Saved for what? So many questions? Did you ever notice that there are more questions than answers?
Perhaps it is from questions that we need saving!
Adams first problem was loneliness, according to the Book of Genesis. God showed him each creature, that he might choose a companion, but Adam found no delight in any of the creatures. It was only after this failure of Adam, to make a choice, that God created Eve and chose for Adam. Adam was offered free will. Could he have chosen differently? This myth in Genesis is a Pandora's box of questions.
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/ar...m_and_eve.html
God caused a deep sleep to come over Adam; a divine anesthesia. Suppose Adam has not yet awakened from that sleep? Suppose you and I and everything are part of Adam's dream?Quote:
Originally Posted by Second Creation
During each of the six days of creation, in the Genesis account, God beholds, and sees that it is "good". When all is completed, on the sixth day, God sees that all is "very good".
But now, God looks at Adam, and sees that something is "not good." It is not good for Adam to be alone.
God creates. Man defines and names.
An artist looks at this story and says, "What can I make out of this?"
Here I am, right now, trying to make something out of nothing.
When someone wants to pick a fight, they say, "Oh yeah? You want to make something of it?" "I have a bone to pick with you!"
Ribs. Jawbones. "Oh dem, bones, Oh dem bones, Oh dem jee-umpin bones!"
Somehow, a bone is at the heart of things.
Question marks are shaped like a club, are they not, or the jawbone of a donkey? Who was it that slew all his enemies with the jawbone of a donkey?
Perhaps that jawbone was a metaphor for rhetoric. Perhaps that hero was really a Socrates, slaying his enemies with question marks.
It was Samson who slew his enemies with the jawbone of a donkey.
(am I allowed to say the Biblical word "***"). Oh dear, I guess not. My @ss becomes as-terisks. Oh well, that is better than becoming grass (as in the expression "your @ss is grass", which is used to indicate some less than desirable state of affairs.)
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/view.asp?id=55
I am here, writing at this very moment, because I awoke from sleep, and it was 3:00 a.m. I awake whenever my dreams disturb me. I prefer sleep and pleasant dreams, but when I cannot have them, then I read and write.
Pi is frequently attempting to distract his tiger companion, in Yann Martel's novel, "Life of Pi". I frequently attempt to distract and engage my mind. The mind is a faithful servant but a cruel master.
The mind is a beastly thing!
There were sacred texts long before there were owner's manuals. And before sacred texts, there was talk around the campfire; and remembrance of talk.
If you want to "talk the talk", you have to "walk the walk." This is what some Christian's tell me.
Literature is frozen talk, I suppose. Oh, not quite as frozen as Moses tablets of stone, down from Mt. Sinai. It is hard to freeze talk around a campfire.
A lot of this started with Abraham's campfire, and his deep, trance-like sleep.
Flames and dreams. They make such a lovely couple, don't they?
http://www.jesuswalk.com/abraham/4_covenant.htm
Sleep is useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoking pot
In Hinduism, God falls asleep, and there is creation.
In Genesis, Adam falls asleep, and there is Eve.
Then Abraham falls asleep, and there is God.
I think we are making progress.
"For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come, when once we've shuffled off this mortal coil?"
Aye, there's the rub!
Er... what was the original question? Oh yes, "Shaken Faith."
Shake your faith!
Shake your booty!
Abraham was dreaming of booty, well, in the sense of plunder. Notice how I play with words. Adam was dreaming of booty before plunder was invented. This is why the oldest profession is not that of mercenary.
People often misquote the Epistle of Timothy (Timothy, 6:10) and say that "Money is the root of all evil." What that verse really says is, "Love of money is the root of all evil."
Now, the Bible tells us that "God is love" but it doesn't get into details about "love of what."
For, as the songwriter tells us, "Love is a many-splendored thing" (from the movie, from the novel by Han Suyin, Chinese novelist, in 1952.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Suyin
Earlier, I mentioned something about "owner's manuals." Whenever you don't know what you are doing, you read the owner's manual.
Now, an owner's manual is supposed to explain how to do something yourself. An owner's manual is not supposed to go into long details about other people doing it, but then leave you in the dark as to the exact step by step instructions.
Of course men threw in his own ideas and put things they believed they should be present into the Bible. Otherwise, how can you explain all the different versions circulating? It cannot only be the translation differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancestor
correct me if im wrong but , there are lots of bible translation which makes it hard for people to absorb its contexts specially if there are such conflicts.The King James Version of the Bible was said to be the nearest translation ever done from the original one.That, probably gives a more concrete support.If your worried of the little pieces missing...dont worry it's not that bad.the thousands of words counts more and does suffice the lacks of the missing words.right?its enough to appreciate those that we have than those unconcrete statemants were not sure of!
:yawnb: :p
ANCESTOR:It's so good to know you somehow believe half way in the bible.and ur right the case still depends on us but if we look even closer and try to absorb its every single element we could have a brighter sight on it.Well, its just my outlook here.sometimes believing is the best path to find truth.I find it true to me.