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Yeah, but you're biased. Your husband's french. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
:lol: I'm not a big fan of his music, but some of it is ok. What's prejudiced my opinion of him is his terrible personality. When I learned about his bio, and the way he treated his wife, it made his music seem worse. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Wiktionary gives, among other meanings, the following definitions to the word "play":
1. A literary composition, intended to be represented by actors impersonating the characters and speaking the dialogue.
2. A theatrical performance featuring actors.
Do you understand - there are two different meanings that happen to be homonyms. (because their meaning is quite close)
In Estonian, there are two different words for them, and although people often mix them up, at least more theater-conscious people give them annoyed looks for that.
In my opinion, one of those meanings above is literature, the other is performance (meaning nothing derogatory by the latter, I don't think one is better than another)
So, one thing is a rendering of some opera on the stage which certainly isn't literature and then there is the opera written down which generally isn't much fun to read, unless you are musically so gifted that you can hear the music (of orchestra, choir and solists) in your head just by reading the notes - and anyhow, since the music isn't literature, you just have your written word, the libretto, which, as mentioned before, is usually quite mediocre. But generally people don't care since the music is so good. (I remember a passage in Pratchett's "Maskerade" where a new singer is taught an aria where she complaints how hard it is for her to leave her loved one. Later, someone translates to her the words or the aria, which apparently were "This damn door sticks! This damn door sticks! It is written "Push!" and indeed I am pushing. Perhaps it should be written "Pull"?")
Opera isn't really about words nor plot nor realism. It is actually quite postmodern in nature, in my opinion. I have heard about instances in the previous centuries where opera stars would, after their arias, sing other arias that they liked out of totally different operas, regardless of the plot.
Also I remember, while performing in the choir of a rendering of "Il Trovatore" a scene, where the choir parted in two - some, about ten played the gypsies of Manrico and the others (including Your Humble Narrator) were the soldiers of Count di Luna. There weren't many guns to be used and since the soldiers were nearer to the props-box, Counts men got all the guns, leaving the gypsies unarmed. So, thats' how the scene went: Count and his soldiers (carrying guns) go to a convent to stop Leonora, his loved one, from taking the vows of a nun. As Count is grabbing the arm of Leonora, out jumps Manrico, everyone goes "Aaaaah!" (actually, everyone goes "Aaaaah!", before they even see Manrico), after which the named characters express different kind of emotions, the Count being of course angry, because Manrico is his rival. The soldiers sing that Count should give up, since things aren't certainly looking good for him. (Yes, the enemy leader is in the center of a bunch of armed soldiers, and could technically be shot at any moment, but the Count should give up) Then, bam!, out jump a bunch of unarmed gypsies, shout "Urgel viva!", and run and take away the Counts sword, push him down on the ground while the soldiers (with guns) just watch as it happens and sing: "Sir, what are we to do now?" and after that "You must retreat, sir, since it is clear that you cannot win".
After about four rehearsals of the scene the director understood that it is a bit unrealistic that a bunch of gypsies should scare the hell out of soldiers who have superior numbers, training and arms. He gave the gypsies some knives.:p
Two rehearsals of the scene after we lost our guns, alas! making the performances a bit less absurd. But hey, if a Chinese plays the long-lost brother of an European, whats wrong with a bunch of soldiers armed with guns being afraid of the shout "Urgel viva!" Perhaps, as we theorized, they were carrying bomb-belts or we were out of bullets or "Urgel viva" just being a really scary thing to say, you know, like "Ni!"
I've never heard Pelleas et Melisande but I certainly agree with Antiquarian that he was a marvelous composer. I am especially fond of his works for solo keyboard, his chanson or "art songs" and of course his lovely Impressionistic orchestral pieces such as La Mer.
I'd have to say no, because I could really go for a Verdi opera and not know what the heck they are saying. Songs (opera) may have lyrics, but its the musicality that makes them soar.
When you say Pelleas et Melisande doesn't have any singing, JBI, do you mean it doesn't have any arias? Late Verdi (Falstaff and Otello) doesn't have arias as such either and certainly throws audiences who have come expecting to hear something like Aida or La Traviata.
re: not liking composers because of their private lives - I'm never sure about this. Doesn't the music stand on its own? Don't written works stand on their own, come to that? (Though I must admit it's more difficult to hide attitudes in words than it is in music.) I sang in Carmina Burana some years ago and got a tremendous kick out of singing with several hundred other singers in the Albert Hall - but when a friend remarked sadly that it was a fine bit of music but a pity about Orff's allegience to Hitler, I felt I was expected to feel guilty about the intensely uplifting experience that the performance had been for me. I don't think I'm a closet Nazi.....
I didn't know about Debussy but I'm not sure knowing more about his personal life changes my attitude to his music (wish I could play it better to do it more justice!). Apparently Saint Saens left something to be desired in his social skills but the last movement of his Carnival of the Animals never fails to raise a smile when I feel low and the Organ Symphony could inspire me to move mountains.
No, Falstaff still has singing, as does Otello. Pelleas et Melisande is dialogue. It is like the dialogue spoken in between arias in most operas, except there are no arias. It is a little more musical than play comic dialogue, but not much. Youtube some samples of it if you don't believe me.
This is one of the more musical scenes in the opera, though they all sound pretty similar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fBDANBmZM as you can tell, it isn't exactly like spoken dialogue, but it isn't really singing the way we think of it. I congratulate it as being a unique art form (the libretto was not powerful enough for me for this art form to really work) but we have, I think run off topic, I just brought that up as a counter-example of more literary opera.
The notes here, if you notice, only are used to punctuate the words, which would imply we are supposed to judge it as a play (in his time, the playwrite who wrote this was well renowned, even winning the Nobel in 1911, though I think his popularity has ebbed with the end of symbolism and marionette theater, and modernist tastes dominating).
Then again, this is somewhat a popular opera, not enjoying the same popularity as a Puccini or Verdi major opera, but certainly not without a fair share of recordings. I guess it probably just isn't really my thing.
I am also not much a fan of Debussy (the things I like most of his tend to be his piano etudes, not his orchestral works) and if this plays again in Toronto, or anywhere that I am at, I probably will not see it. The play, to me at least, just seems very unmoving, with a rather shapeless/directionless plot.
From what I can sense of the Debussy opera it is still singing... but not so much "song". It is dialog or recitative... in a manner not far removed from Wagner... who essentially eliminates the traditional recitative/aria/duet/recitative/aria, etc... structure of older operas. of course Debussy is far less theatrical... and more impressionistic (realistic?) than Wagner. If you want an even greater blurring of song and the spoken word I would suggest Schonberg's Pierrot Lunaire. You can check out one of the more song-like selections here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=157FG8sDMW8
Personally I prefer the great Germans: Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Wagner, etc... but I would probably place Debussy at the top of the heap of the French composers (although such may be a dubious honor:rolleyes:) I do agree that the Etudes are among his finest works... especially performed by Mitsuko Uchida... but I would also greatly recommend Walter Gieseking's inimitable recordings of the Preludes, Images, Suite Bergamasque, etc... Again I would also recommend unreservedly Debussy's "chanson" or art songs, including the famous Clair de lune. Dawn Upshaw made a fabulous recording of his works with James Levine.
Speaking of Opera as a form of literature I just came across this:
http://www.danagioia.net/essays/esotto.htm
And this:
http://www.danagioia.net/opera/index.htm
Oh I have heard of Dana Gioa. When i get a little more time I'll read your web links St Lukes.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
Joshua Bell and Cecilia Bartoli were two I saw at Salzburg.
I'd certainly love to have heard Cecilia. Joshua Bell...? I've only heard very little by him... and after all... Itzhak Perelman is still alive and probably the undeniable reigning master of the violin. But then I also must admit I tend to follow pianists and singers more than the violin... at least among contemporaries.
You got Bayreuth tickets!! I've always wanted them. How did you get them? just luck, or did you pay big bucks? Also, what did you see?
Brendel is good, but he goes too far out of his repertoire, I find. My favorite pianist has to be Murray Perahia.
Either way, back on topic, Libretto is a genre of literature. The problem with it however, is the good libretto doesn't always lead to a good opera, and a bad libretto can turn into an excellent opera. Therefore, from a literary point of view, you either have to judge the libretto as a text, or not at all. Judging the opera as a form involves judging the music as well, which sets it beyond the boundaries of literature, and into the field of music.