Why is God so difficult to believe in?

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

Your posts are incredibly valuable, incredibly inspiring, and enlightening in fact. I know I am not the only one who thinks so. What you are doing is wonderful, and the words you write are like a beautiful song. I just wanted to say this...to counteract the negativity of someone saying that you didn't say anything. Just want to offer my gratitude.

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thank you Nikolai... I can only say the same thing to you of your posts and your own beliefs that I have had the pleasure to read of. So, thank you. You make the forum a better place to be around with your positive and beautiful outlook on life. :)


Ajsa, you have it so right... just look around and it is so easy to have faith in some form of god... and all are the same in the end, all paths go to the same thing, as long as they are filled with love...

cheers

I recently discovered this post on somebody's weblog.
Though it is basically an ironisation of the question asked, there are a few valuable points. Also, it is a good laugh. :D If you believe you might be offended by its contents, please skip it.

Click me.

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

...I did ask you a very specific question that you and every other person who thinks the same way seems to avoid... give me the how and why as explained by science??? tell me about these supposedly:

"tiny building blocks that array themselves in a seemingly infinite, but still finite number of ways, like magnets, but far more complex. The same bag of blocks holds the pieces that make me, a banana, a star. The interactions of the pieces, and their combinations, are complex beyond our comprehension, except in general terms, although we're making progress."


aren't these, according to you, what we are made of?

and how does your science prove this, even the fact they are finite?

tell me how you're not just having faith in something that you and science really know nothing at all about? for that's what it sounds like...

if everything is made of little finite building blocks than where did they come from, or are they infinite in terms of timeless existence, just not in spatial existence?

please explain all this to me? why you're ideas are right , and why they require less faith and are rooted in reality, and please tell me why you're reality rooted ideas (which you haven't explained) on what happens after death are better and require less, supposedly, absurd faith than mine.,..

please, again, I ask you to enlighten me, for if I have been saying nothing, what you have been saying is less than nothing... you're argument consists of telling me I'm not saying anything, rather than refuting, or even challenging what I say, what I believe in... I don't mind at all having my beliefs challenged even torn apart if you can... but to just tell me I'm saying nothing, that's just childish... you selectively choose parts to quote that by themselves don't say much, but altogether it says alot..

lastly I would really like to know how anything is entirely finite... for that matter tell me, with your scientific view how is it possible for there not to be a creator god... for I don't believe in a creator god, but if the world is finite, and we are finite, everything had to have been created by something infinite, everything had to come from somewhere if you like you say everything is finite... but my view in which the true reality behind this illusion, is that there are no beginnings or ends, or definitions, or forms, and everything is infinite and timeless, there is no required creator god...

it is funny how that works for science does kind of necessitate a god of some sort to have gotten the ball rolling... but please actually answer the questions I ask this time... there are quite a few building up now from these posts where I supposedly say nothing... please tell me the truth that science tells about the universe...

cheers

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Ok, islandclimber, you have asked many, many questions, more than I included in the above quote and, as you pointed out, there are yet many more in your other posts. You have repeatedly asked me to 'enlighten' you. Seriously, me prove to you that atoms and all their subparts exist? Pick up a book. Write to CERN. Ask your child's science teacher. Lots and lots of people are better qualified than I to explain it all to you.

But my sense is you're not interested in the answers. When toddlers discover 'why?' they simultaneously discover they can corner anyone with an incessant barrage. They aren't seeking answers, at least not to their questions. They're conducting an experiment in behavior analysis and verbal communication. As an adult you've presumably finished with that sort of experimenting and have other motives. Perhaps you feel if you ask enough unanswerable questions, and they're always right there, just behind the last discovery, then you 'win.' Or perhaps it just feels good to get someone's attention for a couple of hours.

On to a sampling of your questions, heavily edited to save space:

--give me the how and why as explained by science--

Science isn't about 'why' in the sense you're using it. It doesn't seek ultimate meaning and purpose. Science merely strives to answer the mechanical, and has done the job so far. You're already familiar with the 'how.'

--tell me about these supposedly: "tiny building blocks..."--
--aren't these, according to you, what we are made of?--
--and how does your science prove this--

Are you actually asking me if particles exist? How science proves there are atoms? That we're made of them? If you didn't pay attention during your primary education, I can't offer you anything else.

--even the fact that they are finite?--

I can't guess what you mean by this. I don't think science has tried to prove their finity, in or otherwise. We've got nothing to measure infinity by anyway. We could have a whole discussion just on the concept of infinity.

--tell me you're not just having faith--

Well, I am 'just having faith.' It's a different variety than yours though as mine requires demonstrated, reproducible results before I believe it.

--where did they come from, or are they infinite--

Couldn't tell you. We all wonder where things come from. We can either investigate or make up something that sounds right. Those little worms that appear on meat that's been left out too long come to mind. Spontaneous generation, or...? Behind every answer there's usually another question, but this doesn't mean science has failed. Failure is ours when we don't retain what we learned and use it to find the answer to the next question.

--lastly I would really like to know how anything is entirely finite...if the world is finite, and we are finite, everything had to have been created by something infinite--

Things, structures, can be broken down into their components. Break an egg. Pulverize it. The structure ceases to exist. It's finite. Keep breaking it down, dry it out, smash the dust, and still pieces persist. Perhaps they are infinite, but we can't prove it because we don't have enough time. As for the finite having been created by the infinite, that leap of logic is absurd. You're using the fact of a thing's existence as proof that it was created, and created by something infinite. Welcome to the fuzzy world of ID.

And so on. But again it's hard to believe you're serious. You claim to reject science and what it's shown us so far. You show contempt for the idea that it's good to understand common technology. Yet you use the science you dismiss, the technology you despise, to tell the world you don't believe in them.

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Originally Posted by El Viejo

Ok, islandclimber, you have asked many, many questions, more than I included in the above quote and, as you pointed out, there are yet many more in your other posts. You have repeatedly asked me to 'enlighten' you. Seriously, me prove to you that atoms and all their subparts exist? Pick up a book. Write to CERN. Ask your child's science teacher. Lots and lots of people are better qualified than I to explain it all to you.

But my sense is you're not interested in the answers. When toddlers discover 'why?' they simultaneously discover they can corner anyone with an incessant barrage. They aren't seeking answers, at least not to their questions. They're conducting an experiment in behavior analysis and verbal communication. As an adult you've presumably finished with that sort of experimenting and have other motives. Perhaps you feel if you ask enough unanswerable questions, and they're always right there, just behind the last discovery, then you 'win.' Or perhaps it just feels good to get someone's attention for a couple of hours.

On to a sampling of your questions, heavily edited to save space:

--give me the how and why as explained by science--

Science isn't about 'why' in the sense you're using it. It doesn't seek ultimate meaning and purpose. Science merely strives to answer the mechanical, and has done the job so far. You're already familiar with the 'how.'

--tell me about these supposedly: "tiny building blocks..."--
--aren't these, according to you, what we are made of?--
--and how does your science prove this--

Are you actually asking me if particles exist? How science proves there are atoms? That we're made of them? If you didn't pay attention during your primary education, I can't offer you anything else.

--even the fact that they are finite?--

I can't guess what you mean by this. I don't think science has tried to prove their finity, in or otherwise. We've got nothing to measure infinity by anyway. We could have a whole discussion just on the concept of infinity.

--tell me you're not just having faith--

Well, I am 'just having faith.' It's a different variety than yours though as mine requires demonstrated, reproducible results before I believe it.

--where did they come from, or are they infinite--

Couldn't tell you. We all wonder where things come from. We can either investigate or make up something that sounds right. Those little worms that appear on meat that's been left out too long come to mind. Spontaneous generation, or...? Behind every answer there's usually another question, but this doesn't mean science has failed. Failure is ours when we don't retain what we learned and use it to find the answer to the next question.

--lastly I would really like to know how anything is entirely finite...if the world is finite, and we are finite, everything had to have been created by something infinite--

Things, structures, can be broken down into their components. Break an egg. Pulverize it. The structure ceases to exist. It's finite. Keep breaking it down, dry it out, smash the dust, and still pieces persist. Perhaps they are infinite, but we can't prove it because we don't have enough time. As for the finite having been created by the infinite, that leap of logic is absurd. You're using the fact of a thing's existence as proof that it was created, and created by something infinite. Welcome to the fuzzy world of ID.

And so on. But again it's hard to believe you're serious. You claim to reject science and what it's shown us so far. You show contempt for the idea that it's good to understand common technology. Yet you use the science you dismiss, the technology you despise, to tell the world you don't believe in them.

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El Viejo, I don't find it necessary to ask any elementary school teacher about science, to tell the truth, I even studied a year of engineering at University, before I went into the arts... I studied statics, dynamics, chemistry, calculus, linear algebra, and so on and so forth... I've taken courses in anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, religion, etc... I studied quite a wide range of subjects, because I believe in having a wide base of knowledge, and because I think it is essential to know things about even what you disagree with, and argue against, such as science in this case... so to tell me to go ask an elementary school teacher is beyond ridiculous, it is absurd... and I am very interested in real answers, for if they could be given, and actually proved to be true, rather than just theorized upon, I would be inclined to change my mind, if they were true, but science can't do this, so it becomes entirely irrelevant in any quest to explain (and if you so desire we can disregard the why question) even how we exist, how we came to exist, how we continue existing, what we are, what we will be after death, what the universe is, what infinite and finite are... again, if for some reason, I am entirely mistaken in asking these questions and elementary school teachers or even university profs have proven answers or even reasonable scientific theories on these questions please do tell me so... otherwise it is pointless for us to be having this discussion as you just keep evading and eluding everything I ask... and trying to claim I am more ignorant than an elementary school child about science... but I am sorry to disappoint, I do keep up to date on science, for I find it interesting to see what delusion is come up with next, what complete nonsense that is entirely irrelevant to anything important in existence...

secondly with regard to particles and subatomic particles.. science hasn't proved anything about their existence, especially the how they exist, and how they came to exist... and for that matter even the proof they exist is very sketchy, and entirely based on supposition, human definition and upon instruments we created to detect things we assumed existed... you also said these blocks were finite in one of your above posts... that is an absurd claim to make... you claim to know that the so called building blocks go down to a finite source in the end... back that up please????????????

again though you state your faith requires demonstrable, reproducible results.... still none of these results tells us anything about the essential questions of existence, even excluding the "why"... so what is it exactly that you have faith in? the answer to how a cell phone is made... the misplaced and absurd theories on the "big bang" and "quantum physics" and "string theory"???? tell me how they've shown reproducible results or even demonstrable results on any of these theories that still don't go into the fundamentals of existence? next of course is that Buddhism, one of those religions you so easily dismiss, for much of what I say has roots (whether it is the exact same or not) in eastern philosophy and religion, buddhism is based entirely on empiricism... or at least so Siddhartha taught and tried to demonstrate, it is entirely through selfexperience and self experiment that we discover our buddha nature, our false physical finite nature, and our infinite buddha nature... he did it through meditation and said each path to this was equal, one must discover for themselves the fundamental answers to existence and non existence... he didn't believe in the idea of a god, a godhead, but no god... and if you don"t know the difference between these look it up... he used rational empirical experimentation and meditation to come to enlightenment and taught that everyone had to do so... there was no just saying a god exists because someone told you, as you assume we all think, no faith put it absolutely nothing that could be proved, such as science and superhuman creator gods... but faith is in knowledge that meditation on the self, and on the infinite has provided... please explain how your science does better than this?

and I did not claim that because something is finite it is created by something infinite, i just stated it as a consequence of saying something is finite in existence... for something finite has to necessarily be made of something infinite, which is why on the most elementary level everything is necessarily infinite, and don't say the reason we can't prove this or even discover this is because of lack of time, for that's absurd beyond belief... the reason we can't prove this is because human definition and form (and therefore science) cannot even slightly comprehend what infinite is, or how it is... but it is necessary, unless you are saying existence and nonexistence are finite, and everything is finite, which is totally false... I think it is basically fact that everything is infinite, and timeless on the most elementary or whatever you want to call it, level... otherwise it would have had to come out of something infinite, and as I've said many times I don't believe in a creator god, so don't try to pawn that off as being my belief... for please tell me how something finite could even come to be? no questions of why, just scientific "how".... tell me how something could just begin and than end, with nothing at all before or after... tell me please, i really do want to learn and as science seems like such an amazing teacher.... please tell me about these books and theories I've been missing??? but I will stick to me totally reasoned conclusion that I have 100 percent faith in, that everything is nothing, and nothing is everything, and everything is infinite and timeless on an elementary level... and you stick to misguided ideas of science and finite existence...


I think I said much earlier if you were paying attention, that yes I use science and technology for now... it is here, and I am in a life that depends on it for the time being as I have responsibilities to family and friends... and if that makes me a hypocrite, so be it... I really don't mind... for I am not saying science is useless here upon earth in this finite, human defined part of our existence... I am saying it is part of the illusion of this human defined existence and holds people back from enlightenment and faith in what really matters, it stops people from doing things liek meditating on the self and the infinite, and the nature of existence, and it is blinding for we enslave our children blindly to the false laws and theories of science that all fall apart against the reality of infinite and timeless existence...

and if you want to discuss the merits of science, it has done more to destroy the world than anything, far more so than religion... look at pollution, look at the weapons used in wars, many of which had nothing to with religion but ethnicity, and ideology... look at the atomic bomb, one more great miracle of science, and the coal power plant, and the gas guzzling trucks and suvs that seems so prevalent even in the cities... look at the world falling apart at the seams because of the greatness of science... so, in response to all the attacks I've seen on religion here, and no, I am not defending the track record of organized religion, which is something I don't actually believe in, I am just saying don't be hypocrites yourselves... your god is science and it has done more harm than any religion...

my religion is timeless and infinite love, selfless love... whether I completely follow it yet, is another matter, for it is difficult to surrender entirely to infinite and timeless love, but I do have faith that it is everything... I just need to allow myself to surrender to it... love, that's all, love...


cheers

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Originally Posted by islandclimber

El Viejo, ...

my religion is timeless and infinite love, selfless love... whether I completely follow it yet, is another matter, for it is difficult to surrender entirely to infinite and timeless love, but I do have faith that it is everything... I just need to allow myself to surrender to it... love, that's all, love...

cheers

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You know, this has been strange. I haven't had such a strange conversation since talking with a guy who thought the moon landings were faked. That's not to say it hasn't been enjoyable, islandclimber, but I'm done now.

EV

Coincidences have something beyond, a causation. Nothing happens without some basis. Every idea has a root from which it grows.

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Originally Posted by Captainqt

Why is God so difficult to believe in? It is an interesting question and one that I think I have some experience in answering. I have not always believed in God. I had to develop that belief through various means.

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It is not difficult for me to believe in God. I cannot remember a time when I did not believe. I have wondered and questioned like anyone else. Sometimes it all seems so absurd. I truly believe the difficulty comes from people not wanting to give up control or worried that they are going to be made fools of or that they are simple minded. Personally, I love the wonderful mystery of it all.

It is really hard to believe in God and there is no evidence of his existence to approve of this fact. Even if exists, where? in heaven? we can not see him or her for God is believed to be formless.

If he or she does exist it is only through manifestations. We human beings are then God' manifestations. Therefore in form there is no anything called God in existence.