Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job

Funny that I watched South Park episode last nite, and Kyle has this hemorit which is really painfull for a fourth grader..On the other hand, the fat Cartman just recently inherited money and bought his own theme park. Then Kyle said, "God, how can you be so unfair", coz he thinks that Cartman is the most horiblle kids. Then his parents told him the story of Job. But in conclusion, Kyle said, " Why God brings so much pain to a very fine man, just to prove his words to satan?? That's it...I renounce my belief...There is NO God"..

Actually you missed the point of the Trial of God. Let me point out to you that it was God who singled out Job. Satan responds to Gods question by accusation and challanges God to test Job. God accepts the challange. He gives Satan liberty in how he would test Job up to the point that no physical harm could come to him. Satan tests Job and Job passes. God again questions Satan about the righteousness of Job. Satan again accuses God and challanges God to test Job. He accepts once more and gives Satan the right to physically harm Job up to the point of taking Jobs life. As all of this is going on, Job has no idea that Satan has asked to sift Job.
In 1st Corrinthians 6:2, there is a passage that states; " Don't you know that the saints will judge angels?" The way we will judge angels is by the way we respond to the trials of life. Job never lost faith in God even through all that was taken away from him. Satan has no faith in God at all. In the end it was Job who was the judge against Satans accusations. He glorified God by the way he responded to the temptation to curse God and die. Job put God on trial because he felt that it was unfair that God should put him through all of that. God responded that since you don't know all the facts you are unable to judge properly. Job agreed with God and repented. God accepted Jobs apology.

You also went through a trial of faith. When you saw this show you denounced God. You did not pass your test like Job and keep your faith. You judged God on insufficient evidence. You saw things in your own frame of reference. " Why God brings so much pain to a very fine man, just to prove his words to satan?? That's it...I renounce my belief...There is NO God"..

This shows that you do believe in God, but you don't approve of His methods. Your what is known as a weak believer. If there is was no God, then Job did not go through all of this, and the story is a lie. This means that you would be upset at a mirage. The fact is, you don't know why people go through tragedy, and this bothers you. You want to blame someone for it all. and the way you choose to show your rage is to claim that there is no God. You need to rethink your position and learn who God is and what relationship does he have with you. A small group setting with a mentor would be ideal.

q0987, welcome to the forum, just as a by-the-way-I-seem-to-have-forgotten thing. ;)

I don't think Sub meant that she renounced God because of the Book of Job (though I have heard of many, many Christians deconverting after reading the Bible properly...what with anti-Semitism, child abuse, and no women's rights)...wasn't she merely quoting from the show?

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If there is was no God, then Job did not go through all of this, and the story is a lie. This means that you would be upset at a mirage.

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Firstly, there is no more reason for believing in a Biblical god than there is for believing in any of the gods of ancient mythology, say Isis and Osiris, or Thor, or Zeus, or any of them. The only thing that separates the Bible from other mythology is that nowadays people still believe in it. You wouldn't have to call it a lie...merely myth or legend. Mythology is something purely made up, as the Creation of the world (not talking about the Big Bang of course ;)), and legend is something vaguely based on facts and passed down through the generations to become a fictious story. I think Jesus, for example, would fit into the legend field, as there apparently was a man called Jesus living a few centuries BC, though as he lived in the Middle East he was dark-haired and had a dark complexion. Nothing wrong with that. Facts can get twisted through the ages. And so Jesus becomes the fair-haired young man we now imagine him as. Perhaps this real Jesus even made no claim to be God. Or so I hope. I'd have a lot more sympathy for him.

But I digress! Back to the subject - "getting upset at a mirage." Well, has a fictious story never moved with you? Have you never burst into tears or at least become really tense or sad about the death of a character in a film? About anything made-up? If not, then I understand, but people can get pretty upset at mirages as a general rule.

Darcy

Darcy,
There is a big difference between belief in the mythical gods and believing in the God of the bible. There is no way anyone can have a relationship with mythical beings, but I have a relationship with the Lord Jesus. You could not judge one way or the other whether what I say is true anymore than you could judge my relationship with anyone else, since you do not know me. To know someone you have to be willing to enter a relationship with them. I was willing to enter a relationship with Jesus and accepted Him as my saviour when I was a teenager and now I know him and I love him. Since then I have been through many troubles and trials but I am not as perfect as Job in the bible. I always found that Jesus was with me in everything and he has guided my life. I can come to him with my troubles - anything at all, and he helps me. But I had a time like Job's and unlike him, my faith failed me. But God is faithful and he does not let go of those he loves. He did not let go of me either and he showed me himself. I never found out why I suffered so much all at the same time, but I found out something - God loves me with a love that will not let me go and it is unlike any other love, because it is faithful in all things..even when I am faithless. There were two things during my troubles that I could never deny and these were that God exists and that he loved me. The reason that I could not deny God's existence was because I knew him. And I could not deny his love for me because he had showed it to me not only since I committed myself to him, but even before I was born.

I think that maybe Sub was being light hearted in his post. I love South Park as well at the Simpsons - but much of the humour is based on sarcasm which is what makes them hilariously funny.

Miranda

Darcy was right...I was just quaoting Kyle's words..but in a point I still think that the point is valid, "why would god gave so much pain to Job, just to prove his words to Satan, that there's a man who trully love him and he's willing to accept anything and still praise God for all the pain he suffers"

On the other hand, who can tell that God did not take part in Job's perseverence...

Again you missed the point. God used Job to judge Satan since Satan wanted to test Job. Job glorified God by doing the best he could under the circomstances. Also God did not leave Job hanging, he blessed Job with far more then he once had.
We feel for Job because we suffer in this life in a simular fashion as to what Job went through. Because of our own suffering, we can identify with his "why me" arguement.

Jesus said, "Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Jesus would understand suffering because of offenses. When we look at the way Job suffered and compare it to the way Jesus suffered, we can see a corallation between them. They both suffered under extreme physical anguish.
We live in a world of offences. And we know anguish, whether it is caused by our own behavior or someone elses, we suffer from them.
I am thankful that I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. This gives me great comfort to know that God understands what we go through every day.

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Originally Posted by Miranda

There is a big difference between belief in the mythical gods and believing in the God of the bible. There is no way anyone can have a relationship with mythical beings, but I have a relationship with the Lord Jesus.

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But Jesus himself, as God's son, is just a myth. No offence, but he isn't anything better than Zeus or Thor. Besides, the priests of Ancient Egypt certainly had a kind of "relationship", as you put it, with their gods, particularly Amun-Re. You will find plenty of other examples throughout history.

I have read that religious feeling can sometimes be likened to love. Though personally I think loving an actual person is better than loving a belief, everyone is different.

Darcy.

P.S. I love your name, Miranda. Did you get it out of The Tempest or off Uranus' moon?

<I am thankful that I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. This gives me great comfort to know that God understands what we go through every day.>

If he understands, then I presume he would help. It seems to me that your god is just voyeuristic. During natural disasters, which kill thousands of people, what is God doing? He understands our fears and our sufferings, you imply. But he seems not to help the vulnerable and defenceless, the children and the incapacitated.

He isn't a good role model for parents.

Miranda,

I really don't have a clue what you are going on about. Anybody who can have a relationship with a non-physical, invisible, inaudible (to everyone else apart from possibly you), 'personality', can have a relationship with any old thing in my opinion, even a mythological god. I really don't see much difference between the worship of Adonis or Mithras and what you are talking about. In fact, as Miss Darcy has said, Amon Re was a cult that involved personal identification and communication with a single mythological entity. Amon Re was the first monotheistic god, upon whom your jewish/christian god was based.

I perfectly agree. It sounds rather strange to call God understanding, to say that he answers, for example, prayers for little things, and yet is not be able to/be unwilling to keep the more disastrous, large catastrophes/poverty/starvation/wars/you name it from happening. As Epicurus says:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

In Ancient Egypt, every morning before the sun would rise, a priest would pray for Amun-Re to help him win his struggle with a serpent so that day could begin again. Otherwise the sun would never come up again and the world would end (Amun-Re rode across the sky in his boat - he was the sun god, as well as the most important god of Ancient Egypt).

Another Ancient Egyptian god with whom the pharaoh himself especially (the priests weren't so important) had a very intimate "relationship" with was the Aten during the reign of Akhenaten. Only the pharaoh worshipped the Aten, everybody else just worshipped the pharaoh. It was partially the worship of the Aten that made Akhenaten unpopular and considered as something of a heretic. People didn't like how he had disposed of all the traditional gods to make room for this one, "true" god. However, Akhenaten contributed much to the new "realistic" style of art, among other things.

This isn't an ancient history discussion, I know, but well, when I get started...:D

Darcy

Why is it so hard for us to accept that some people find comfort in believing a greater being/creator and would like to spend their time worshiping that superior being? Why do we feel the need to prove them wrong if we are persuaded that there is no superior being?

Maybe it is isn't so difficult to accept. Maybe what is difficult is when people use their religious experiences to differentiate themselves from others.

And being different is bad?

Not at all. Being different is good. However, is it not the goal of most religions to create dull homogenous thinking rather than diverse thought?

The point I was trying to make in the previous post, was that religious believers often feel they have a moral high ground; that they have god on their side; and that basically we should all be doing as they do, with regards to believing and worshipping.

Is that not the reason why atheists feel the need to prove religious believers wrong? Anyway, I'm not sure anyone can prove the case either way. Atheism can only ever 'prove' that believers have no apparent reason to believe in god; that there is not a good argument for such belief. Essentially, we cannot know, and we would need to know to prove the case. But we can know what does and doesn't make sense. And when people claim that god exists; that there is a saviour etc; then those claims assume what they have no right to assume. And in doing so, those claims can have a great deal of influence and consequences that would affect many people including us atheists. Therefore, we feel the need to curb religious growth and to argue against religion, to protect ourselves, and others too.

I have met many believers in a variety of weird and unusual things: from christianity to ufology to various conspiracy theories etc. What they all seem to have in common, is a firm belief that experience is equivalent to reality: if you have an abduction experience THEN that means there are aliens; if you have a conversion experience THEN that must mean Jesus lives. Of course, experiential narrative can be compelling. But the reasoning is flawed. Experience is not a good indicator of truth or reality.

When something is a matter of pure belief and faith, it is hard to discuss what is sensible or not.