Oh the last line of his post didn't sink in my brain. I will have to locate what I've written here on lit net to remind everyone. I think it was in that elephant poem thread. I'll find it tonight.
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Oh the last line of his post didn't sink in my brain. I will have to locate what I've written here on lit net to remind everyone. I think it was in that elephant poem thread. I'll find it tonight.
Thanx Janine. As you already said, the answer was on chapter 8. I was perplexed because Pussum never asks for money (she is just a woman with loose morals not a prostitute) but Gerald insists. What you say here makes sense (about washing his hands of the whole encounter).Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Have you noticed the referances to greek mythology? Lawrence mentions Cassandra (the prophetes), the greek oracle (he means Pytheia the prophetes of Delfi), the god Dionysos (god of wine among other things). If i spot anything else i will post it.
He also uses a few greek words like "pathos" (πάθος = passion) and "panacea" (πανάκεια = false medicine, medicine which has no effect).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Nice to know that deep knowledge of Freud is not needed, since i am not that informed concerning Freud (i have only read a few things on his interpretation of dreams).
Manolia, I have noticed these throughout, but I did not know what they meant. Thanks for writing this and explaining. I will want to learn more. I am not too well versed or knowlegable in Greek Mythology, so you can help me if, you would. Please do post any more you find and the meanings. I will keep notes on this to put with my text. I am sure the text will make more sense to me now. The words seems to be highly significant. If L added them in, they mean something important.Quote:
Have you noticed the referances to greek mythology? Lawrence mentions Cassandra (the prophetes), the greek oracle (he means Pytheia the prophetes of Delfi), the god Dionysos (god of wine among other things). If i spot anything else i will post it.
He also uses a few greek words like "pathos" (πάθος = passion) and "panacea" (πανάκεια = false medicine, medicine which has no effect).
If you go to the 'Lawrence / June Reading Poll thread', you will see a few posts towards the end that are discussing this aspect of Lawrence. You don't need the knowledge of Freud in depth, to understand L.Quote:
Nice to know that deep knowledge of Freud is not needed, since i am not that informed concerning Freud (i have only read a few things on his interpretation of dreams).
Yes this novel is laden with greek classical allusions. In a way this is the opposite of The Rainbow. The Rainbow has heavy allusions to Genesis of the Old Testament; in fact I've said somewhere that The Rainbow is a re-writing of Genesis. That might be a stretch but not by much. Women In Love is a re-writing of Greek classical myth. I think you'll see that by the end of the novel, when you reduce the story to its basics, it will appear to be a myth.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
Ugh...I think I know why I gave up on this book the first time I tried it. I have the hardest time reading a book in which I loathe all of the main characters. They are such an unlikeable group of people...
*shannon goes back to her book muttering*
Can we go back to chap 3 for a minute?
So I understand how Birkin would show up to the school, but how does Hermoine fit in? Does she work at the same school?
I thought my dislike of the 2 sisters had to do with the fact that I was in a foul mood when I started the book, but maybe my dislike is real.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by _Shannon_
Hmmm.."The Rainbow" sounds interesting too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I promised Janine that i will spot the references. In the end of ch 9 we have a reference to Daphne (who was transformed to a tree) and the sirens (who maddened Odysseus's comrades with their song).
Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
manolia, Virgil loves "The Rainbow". I read it also, years ago, but I felt a struggle getting through it. I do recall enjoying it though, but at the time it seemed long. Of course all this means nothing really, since I do believe it to be equally as interesting as this book. It is definitely a book I want to read again, now that I am older. I will someday soon, having acquired new knowledge of Lawrence's personal life, ideas and other writings. I think I would definitely appreciate it much more.
Thank you manolia! this is great! I will review those parts of the text to see how these mythological references apply. Very helpful indeed.:thumbs_upQuote:
I promised Janine that i will spot the references. In the end of ch 9 we have a reference to Daphne (who was transformed to a tree) and the sirens (who maddened Odysseus's comrades with their song).
I intend to read it too (i intend to read most of L books) but i will surely choose a more convenient period (maybe my summer break. I have understood that L's books require piece of mind ;) ).Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hi Papayahed, Glad to see you in the discussion. In answer to your question, I think Hermoine simply stopped in to see Birkin. If you read back, she says that in the beginning of her visit. She wanted to see just what he did at school.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Hermonine work - are you kidding? She is rich! She would not be caught dead lowering herself to work.
I don't know how far into the book you are, but I think to make an assessment of 'like' or 'dislike' this early on, is a dire mistake. The characters are so multilayered and you have to see them in the light of the day they lived and in the social context. They are presented here as 'real' people with mysteries and complex workings in their mind and not 'perfect' people, but all with flaws and weaknesses. I don't think you have to like the characters to enjoy or understand the book. Sometimes we relate better to people with human weaknesses better, than we do to totally sunny dispositions and fairytale like worlds where everyone is nice and sweet and likable. Is this not like real life, encountering all types of personalities?Quote:
I thought my dislike of the 2 sisters had to do with the fact that I was in a foul mood when I started the book, but maybe my dislike is real.:(
manolia, you know that is really true - L's books do require piece of mind. They would make excellent summer reading. So glad you are enjoying this book and will read his others. I don't think you will regret it. Funny, I first read L (WIL) at your age and I was quite affected by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
I intend to do the same, with the summer reading. I want to read a few I have not read yet, some of the less noted novels (which are short reads), Lawrence's personal letters, which by the way, are fascinating, and another biography. On top of all of this I hoped to repeat a few of his shorter novels that I love like "Love Among the Haystakes" and "The Fox". You might also be interested in those stories. Both are excellent and very short. It has been years since I read them and have a nostalgic desire to do so again.
Well, it is all part of my ongoing study and love of DHL.
Hi *muttering* Shannon, Please read how I feel about this - my post to Papayahed and then let me add: if you are not enjoying this book - why read it? There are zillions of books you might prefer with more likable characters. Why waste your time on this one if truly you don't care for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by _Shannon_
Well- because I am not really that kind of person :) I hated Catch 22 throughout most of the book- but turned out to like it very much. I hated all the characters in Crime and Punishment-- but thought it was a great book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I agree with you- that there is a multifaceted aspect that makes the characters be flawed humanity...and that can be a great thing when the story is all over and done, you know???
I have this reaction to Austen, too...I feel like I ought to down a couple beers before I pick up my book so I can endure to just wait and see where the night goes...
Hi againShannon, very honest assessment of how you read. Everyone reads differently; maybe you like to suffer:lol: - just kidding but actually, I love tragedies and one suffers with those quit a bit...I thrive on Hamlet. I eat up the suffering at the end of tragedies...really relish it.Quote:
Originally Posted by _Shannon_
I think you're right in that 'the 'flawed humanity' can certainly be a 'great thing' when the story is over and done with. Yes, so much for nice guys! I think they are more interesting each having flaws and being hard to understand and sometimes to actually despise. Have you ever read Othello? He is the villian one loves to hate. He takes over the show. Villians are always more interesting than regular nice folk. I actually despise Hermoine but I do find her fascinating. I think, by the time WIL comes full circle and is completed at the end, you will see that each character goes through transitions and changes, You may very well perceive them differently by the ending. If nothing else, I can guarantee you will be thinking about this book, the characters and the ideas presented, long after you close the book. Lawrence's books and imagery tend to stay with us.
I am glad you were not offended by me saying you could quit the book for others you would like better. I was just trying to be straightforward and honest with you. But happy now to know you will stick with it, and make a fuller assessment at the end. I don't think you will regret it. Any comments along the way are always enlightening as well.
Well, maybe some beer would help;), hey, whatever works for you personally is cool. I find, like manolia pointed out, Lawrence is best absorbed slowly and in times of peace. One really needs to comtemplate each line and each chapter before rushing onward. Good luck with your reading and don't get drunk!
D.H.Lawrence's ranch in New Mexico...http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ranium/lawrence/brown1.html In case there is need to know, D.H. spent two years(?) in this state near Taos. quasimodo1
Are we able to delete posts?
Chapter eight is in a way a flip side of chapters six and seven. In the previous two chapters we see the sterility of city life with its loose sexual mores. In chapter eight we get the sterility of intellectualism and devotees of high culture. Hermione is the opposite of Minette. But both are dead ends to that "completeness" that Birkin is longing for. Here's an important passage (Birkin is in the middle of talking to Gerald about how Gerald's soul feels the need to close the Minette affair):
And then this exchange:Quote:
The morning was again sunny. The maid had been in and brought the water, and had drawn the curtains. Birkin, sitting up in bed, looked lazily and pleasantly out on the park, that was so green and deserted, romantic, belonging to the past. He was thinking how lovely, how sure, how formed, how final all the things of the past were -- the lovely accomplished past -- this house, so still and golden, the park slumbering its centuries of peace. And then, what a snare and a delusion, this beauty of static things -- what a horrible, dead prison Breadalby really was, what an intolerable confinement, the peace! Yet it was better than the sordid scrambling conflict of the present. If only one might create the future after one's own heart -- for a little pure truth, a little unflinching application of simple truth to life, the heart cried out ceaselessly.
We see that Gerald's life is fragmented ("all in bits"), incomplete.Quote:
`What am I to do at all, then?' came Gerald's voice.
`What you like. What am I to do myself?'
In the silence Birkin could feel Gerald musing this fact.
`I'm blest if I know,' came the good-humoured answer.
`You see,' said Birkin, `part of you wants the Pussum, and nothing but the Pussum, part of you wants the mines, the business, and nothing but the business -- and there you are -- all in bits --'
`And part of me wants something else,' said Gerald, in a queer, quiet, real voice.
The same can be said for Hermione in her life of high culture and searching for knowledge. Notice this echange between Hermione and Birkin when she finds him alone in his room and she finds Rupert's copy of a picture:
"The ghastliness of dissolution" is synonymous with "all in bits." Gerald's way of life and Hermione's way of life are quite different, but they both lead to dead ends. Neither reach that "finality" that Lawrence keeps mentioning.Quote:
`But why do you copy it?' she asked, casual and sing-song. `Why not do something original?'
`I want to know it,' he replied. `One gets more of China, copying this picture, than reading all the books.'
`And what do you get?'
She was at once roused, she laid as it were violent hands on him, to extract his secrets from him. She must know. It was a dreadful tyranny, an obsession in her, to know all he knew. For some time he was silent, hating to answer her. Then, compelled, he began:
`I know what centres they live from -- what they perceive and feel -- the hot, stinging centrality of a goose in the flux of cold water and mud -- the curious bitter stinging heat of a goose's blood, entering their own blood like an inoculation of corruptive fire -- fire of the cold-burning mud -- the lotus mystery.'
Hermione looked at him along her narrow, pallid cheeks. Her eyes were strange and drugged, heavy under their heavy, drooping lids. Her thin bosom shrugged convulsively. He stared back at her, devilish and unchanging. With another strange, sick convulsion, she turned away, as if she were sick, could feel dissolution setting-in in her body. For with her mind she was unable to attend to his words, he caught her, as it were, beneath all her defences, and destroyed her with some insidious occult potency.
`Yes,' she said, as if she did not know what she were saying. `Yes,' and she swallowed, and tried to regain her mind. But she could not, she was witless, decentralised. Use all her will as she might, she could not recover. She suffered the ghastliness of dissolution, broken and gone in a horrible corruption. And he stood and looked at her unmoved. She strayed out, pallid and preyed-upon like a ghost, like one attacked by the tomb-influences which dog us. And she was gone like a corpse, that has no presence, no connection. He remained hard and vindictive.