May / Irving Reading: 'A Prayer For Owen Meany'

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Originally Posted by bouquin

The way I understand it, Owen's criticism of the Catholic Church started before he got to that usual age where kids question and/or defy authority. He had been influenced by his father whose decision it was to break away from the Catholic Church and transfer his family (Owen especially) to the Episcopals.

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Hmmm. I haven't finished the novel, but Owen defies his father and just about everyone. Why would he be influeneced by his father in this matter. He seems to make up his own mind on just about everything.

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Owen must have witnessed his parents suffer and agonize because of lack of moral sustenance from the priests and other Catholic Church leaders that they consulted regarding their problem. He might also have seen and heard his mother and father being ridiculed. This could have substantially affected him, thus his negative attitude toward the Catholic Church.

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Again I haven't finished so I don't know if Irving backtracts here and fills in this information. But this wasn't given at the beginning. Is this information that will come in later on? And even so, it still sounds like Catholic bigotry to me.

I've finally found a spare minute to pick up the book and start re-reading it.
hehe, i don't think I'll catch up with you guys, seeing as i've got another major exam coming up...
but it's cool to re-read it again. you have mentioned some passages that I've totally forgotten...

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Again I haven't finished so I don't know if Irving backtracts here and fills in this information. But this wasn't given at the beginning. Is this information that will come in later on? And even so, it still sounds like Catholic bigotry to me.

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Yes, as I think I've stated before, those answers are given. You will later understand why there is this anti-catholic fervor in their house and I think it's made clear, as I said before, that it comes from a place of ignorance and superstition. Owen even eventually strikes up a very positive relationship with a Catholic priest, we only really learn of it in retrospect and second hand and while he always maintains his anti-catholic bent, it become clear that he respected this priest a great deal.

[QUOTE=Virgil;377767]Hmmm. I haven't finished the novel, but Owen defies his father and just about everyone. Why would he be influeneced by his father in this matter. He seems to make up his own mind on just about everything.


As early as chapter I (page 21 of the paperback edition that I have) John narrates:
He (Owen) was changing churches, he said, TO ESCAPE THE CATHOLICS - or, actually it was his father who was escaping and defying the Catholics by sending Owen to Sunday school, to be confirmed, in the Episcopal Church ... the Catholics had committed an UNSPEAKABLE OUTRAGE - that they had insulted his father and mother, irreparably.

Furthere down on page 22, John continues to say:
And what was the cause of the falling out between the Catholics and Mr. Meany? I always asked. Owen never told me. The damage was irreparable, he would repeat; he would refer only to the UNSPEAKABLE OUTRAGE.

My impression is that Owen was not defiant towards his dad right about that time when he was around 10 years old (when John talks about their attending Sunday school together); it was more like his parents have left him to fend for himself. That is why he became so independent and made decisions for himself. But a couple of years later, right after Tabitha died, Mr. Meany says to John:
"I'm gonna listen to what your mother said. She told me not to interfere if Owen wanted to go to the academy. And I won't ..."
Then John comments: It would take me years to realize that from the moment Owen hit that ball, Mr. Meany wouldn't "interfere" with anything Owen wanted.
I think it was only from that point onwards that Owen got the upper hand of his parents and became definitely authoritative towards them.

Thank you Idril and bouquin. Thanks for taking the time. I intend to finish the novel. So I will get the complete picture eventually. Sorry if I'm just whining. But you know hardly anyone gives their thoughts on these book club forums. They'll have a post at the end on whether they liked it or not with some vague emotional feeling. And at that point who goes back to various scenes in the book. I thought the point of a book forum discussion was to talk to each other while we read.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Thank you Idril and bouquin. Thanks for taking the time. I intend to finish the novel. So I will get the complete picture eventually. Sorry if I'm just whining. But you know hardly anyone gives their thoughts on these book club forums. They'll have a post at the end on whether they liked it or not with some vague emotional feeling. And at that point who goes back to various scenes in the book. I thought the point of a book forum discussion was to talk to each other while we read.

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I think Owen Meany is a fun book to discuss - because it is such a strange tale and leaves a lot of questions hanging.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I have to say that the high school years chapter is boring. Owen as The Voice in the school paper gets so predictable. The more this book goes along, the less charming it becomes. What kept my interest, despite the loose writing, was the charm of the characters. Well, the writing is the same, but the characters are not as charming.

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SPOILER ALERT!! You might not want to read this post if you have not yet reached the latter part of chapter 7 of the book.

It was quite audacious of Owen to speak up as The Voice but yes, his rebelliousness got kind of predictable after a while. I absolutely rooted for him though, while he stood up against Mrs Lish!

What I still could not fathom was why he had to cut off Mary Magdalene. What was his logic behind that? I see Owen as bold and daring and determined but not foolhardy - so cutting off that statue seemed out of character to me. I suppose that Irving did it for the purpose of symbolism and foreshadowing, but I think he went overboard on this one - an overkill.

***SPOILER***

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Originally Posted by bouquin

but I think he went overboard on this one - an overkill.

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And Irving is certainly is capable of doing that. I know that Owen never liked the statue's arms, didn't he complain that it looked like she was begging or something along those lines? Although what that has to do with Randy White, I don't know. Maybe by removing Mary's begging arms he was showing the headmaster and the school board that he wouldn't beg to be let back or act in any way subservient? I don't know, I just made that up, I really have no idea. :p :lol:

SPOILER!!
(unless you've read through to Chapter 9) ..........
.................................................. .......................

Another point I would like an explanation on is why Irving decided that John Wheelwright should remain a virgin (non-practising homosexual?). What is the significance of that if any?

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Originally Posted by bouquin

SPOILER!!
(unless you've read through to Chapter 9) ..........
.................................................. .......................

Another point I would like an explanation on is why Irving decided that John Wheelwright should remain a virgin (non-practising homosexual?). What is the significance of that if any?

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why ever not???
i don't think Irving meant to say John Wheelwright is a non-practicising homosexual.. that's what some of his aquaintances think, but he thinks it's crap.
why shouldn't he remain a virgin? does there have to be any significance to it?
ok, i admit it's unusual for a man in RL to remain a virgin...
let me put it the other way round: if Wheelwright were to lose his virginity in one way or the other (e.g. get married or stay single but have casual sexual encounters or hire a prostitute or all of them), would you ask "what's the significance of that"?

i think most of Irvings characters are a quirky mix of realistic and unusual.. so maybe that's all there is to it.. I mean John Wheelwright is rather boring in some ways.. it's not him who's special but his friend Owen. John functions as a narrator of Owens life and his own life was clearly affected by Owens... but if there's anything special/unusual about him, that's because he knew Owen, not because of himself...
hehehe, no offence, I'm not trying to argue with you...
maybe I'll be able to make a more coherent contribution when I've finished re-reading the book :)

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

i think most of Irvings characters are a quirky mix of realistic and unusual.. so maybe that's all there is to it..

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I can buy that because you're right, Sleepy, Irving books are positively littered with unique and unusual characters with odd little quirks, like the main character in Until I Find You who can't watch movies unless...well...he has a weird way to watch movies. :rolleyes: Anyway, it may just be that this is Johnny's quirk. I've also thought perhaps it was because he was so damaged by what happened to Owen that it left him unable to really have a full life, it left him so scarred that he isn't able to make normal connections with people. Before John moves to Canada, we hear of incidents when Johnny does try to change his virgin status and while we don't have a tremendous amount of details about his life in Canada, it does appear as if his attempts to change his status stop. I think his experience with Owen just left him largely emotionally numb, except of course for his political rants. :p

Such a quirk would have to have some significance, and I think it does. I have not finished the novel, but let me suggest this, that remaining a virgin signifies a stunted develpment, someone who has not been initiated fully into adulthood. His virginity counterpoints Hester's (the molestor ;) ) nymphomania and parallels the nuns that seem to cross the novel every so often in the background. That's one way to look at it. Another is to suggest that Johnny is priestly, an apostle to Owen perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Such a quirk would have to have some significance, and I think it does. I have not finished the novel, but let me suggest this, that remaining a virgin signifies a stunted develpment, someone who has not been initiated fully into adulthood. His virginity counterpoints Hester's (the molestor ;) ) nymphomania and parallels the nuns that seem to cross the novel every so often in the background. That's one way to look at it. Another is to suggest that Johnny is priestly, an apostle to Owen perhaps?

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wow, I'd never thought of it that way... :thumbs_up
my far less sophisticated explanation would have been that after Johnny experienced something as miraculous as Owen's life the whole "getting laid" thing would appear overrated to him...

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Originally Posted by bouquin

Who knows, perhaps John Wheelwright's rantings and ravings about politics could very well be the expression of Irving's own personal point of view.

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Yes, exactly: who knows ?

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Originally Posted by bouquin

Isn't that often the case (although not all, of course) among writers and their works? That they express their heartfelt opinions, air out their own anguish, doubts and indignation; tell their own life story through their writings?

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Maybe some do, maybe others do not. I do not see why it should be of interest whether the issues brought forth in his books are congruent with what Irving or any other writer took for his personal opinion. When reading fiction, I do not want to know about the author's opinion on whatsoever. If I did, I would read his autobiography or listen to an interview. I read (his) fiction, however, because I am interested in (his) presentation of (not necessarily his) opinions and views. But that's just me :).

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But you know hardly anyone gives their thoughts on these book club forums. They'll have a post at the end on whether they liked it or not with some vague emotional feeling. (...) I thought the point of a book forum discussion was to talk to each other while we read.

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I agree that it would be more entertaining and profitable for the rest of the Book Club if more persons gave their views and share their ideas here :nod:. However, I at least don't have the time to come here every day, and being a very slow reader on the screen and having missed a lengthy part of some discussion, it takes me a lot of time to read through the previous posts to follow the thread.
Of course I don't know about others, but I could imagine that for some of those who voted in the polls, the Book Club is more of an individual psychological motivation to get on with their reading list, and I don't see what could be wrong with that function of a book group.
However, for those behind the screen who are just waiting for an invitation to join: this is it :D.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Another is to suggest that Johnny is priestly, an apostle to Owen perhaps?

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That's a good idea, I had never thought about that either :). The apostle thing might give you another interesting meaning for the ending, if you're still determined to read on ;).

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Originally Posted by Sleepy

my far less sophisticated explanation would have been that after Johnny experienced something as miraculous as Owen's life the whole "getting laid" thing would appear overrated to him...

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Another interesting thought ! My even far less elaborated idea was that, in comparison to the many episodes illuminating Owen's particulars, Johnny is simply being held plain, and thus placing even more emphasis on Owen. I had the impression that very little of the plot is actually dedicated to Johnny's person only: he gets the armadillo but Owen mutilates it, Owen takes over kissing Hester, Johnny can't get through college without Owen's help, and more. I remember that on first reading the novel I was very annoyed when the narrative switched to Johnny's diary written from Canada. Even in his 'present' life, separated from Owen, he does not have a great many interesting things to tell about himself. Of course these excerpts have their place and function within the novel, but I still prefer the more intriguing retrospect episodes with Owen :).

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

why ever not???
i don't think Irving meant to say John Wheelwright is a non-practicising homosexual.. that's what some of his aquaintances think, but he thinks it's crap.
why shouldn't he remain a virgin? does there have to be any significance to it?
ok, i admit it's unusual for a man in RL to remain a virgin...
let me put it the other way round: if Wheelwright were to lose his virginity in one way or the other (e.g. get married or stay single but have casual sexual encounters or hire a prostitute or all of them), would you ask "what's the significance of that"?

i think most of Irvings characters are a quirky mix of realistic and unusual.. so maybe that's all there is to it.. I mean John Wheelwright is rather boring in some ways.. it's not him who's special but his friend Owen. John functions as a narrator of Owens life and his own life was clearly affected by Owens... but if there's anything special/unusual about him, that's because he knew Owen, not because of himself...
hehehe, no offence, I'm not trying to argue with you...
maybe I'll be able to make a more coherent contribution when I've finished re-reading the book :)

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I would question the significance depending on who John married or had sex with. If it was one of the girls he grew up with or met while in college or even Hester then I would most probably interpret it as part of the natural course of things and not wonder about it. But if, for instance, he were to keep on insisting that he only has sex with hand surgeons then chances are I would find that curious!

Anyway, I think I can answer my own question after all. Reviewing the parts where John speaks of his sexuality, I re-discovered this statement of his (early chapter 9) --
What has happened to me has simply neutered me. I just don't feel like "practicing."

So it seems that there is after all a significance and it's part and parcel of the symbol of armlessness (the armadillo, the dressmaker's dummy, Mary Magdalene, the finger).

What I still could not fathom was why he had to cut off Mary Magdalene. What was his logic behind that? I see Owen as bold and daring and determined but not foolhardy - so cutting off that statue seemed out of character to me. I suppose that Irving did it for the purpose of symbolism and foreshadowing, but I think he went overboard on this one - an overkill.[/QUOTE]

Well, it does fall into the pattern of cutting arms off, but it did seem strange that he would vandalize the Catholic Church since the issue at hand had nothing to do with them. What I question is how could Owen physically do what he did alone, given the weight of the statue. I guess we just have to accept it, but it doesn't seem possible to me.

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

Maybe some do, maybe others do not. I do not see why it should be of interest whether the issues brought forth in his books are congruent with what Irving or any other writer took for his personal opinion. When reading fiction, I do not want to know about the author's opinion on whatsoever. If I did, I would read his autobiography or listen to an interview. I read (his) fiction, however, because I am interested in (his) presentation of (not necessarily his) opinions and views. But that's just me :).

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I agree. What makes an author think he's more knowledgable on any given controversey than an expert. It's like a celeberty or a rock star preaching to me about global warming. :sick:

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I agree that it would be more entertaining and profitable for the rest of the Book Club if more persons gave their views and share their ideas here :nod:. However, I at least don't have the time to come here every day, and being a very slow reader on the screen and having missed a lengthy part of some discussion, it takes me a lot of time to read through the previous posts to follow the thread.
Of course I don't know about others, but I could imagine that for some of those who voted in the polls, the Book Club is more of an individual psychological motivation to get on with their reading list, and I don't see what could be wrong with that function of a book group.
However, for those behind the screen who are just waiting for an invitation to join: this is it :D.

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I understand Schoky.

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Another interesting thought ! My even far less elaborated idea was that, in comparison to the many episodes illuminating Owen's particulars, Johnny is simply being held plain, and thus placing even more emphasis on Owen. I had the impression that very little of the plot is actually dedicated to Johnny's person only: he gets the armadillo but Owen mutilates it, Owen takes over kissing Hester, Johnny can't get through college without Owen's help, and more. I remember that on first reading the novel I was very annoyed when the narrative switched to Johnny's diary written from Canada. Even in his 'present' life, separated from Owen, he does not have a great many interesting things to tell about himself. Of course these excerpts have their place and function within the novel, but I still prefer the more intriguing retrospect episodes with Owen :).

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There's something to the thought that Owen fulfills all of Johhny's desires. Or at least he seems to.

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Originally Posted by bouquin

Anyway, I think I can answer my own question after all. Reviewing the parts where John speaks of his sexuality, I re-discovered this statement of his (early chapter 9) --
What has happened to me has simply neutered me. I just don't feel like "practicing."

So it seems that there is after all a significance and it's part and parcel of the symbol of armlessness (the armadillo, the dressmaker's dummy, Mary Magdalene, the finger).

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But that doesn't quite answer it. Why doesn't he not "feel like 'practicing'"? Can it be (again I haven't finished; I'm on page 400 or so) that Johnny has been frozen emotionally at the time of his mother's death and has not been able to grow from there? He was eleven and pre-puberty and a significant core within him has not been able to move on.

Also, the sections where the narration jumps to present time, the 1987 sections where johnny is just always angry. It seems to me that the adult Johnny has remained an adolescent, aestheiticaly dramatised by Irving by the fact that narrative never goes anywhere. It's just repetative and never progresses. At least up to the point I've read.