This poem is a good poem. Shouldn't the beginning of this poem start as, When I reconsider how my light is spent...?
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This poem is a good poem. Shouldn't the beginning of this poem start as, When I reconsider how my light is spent...?
Well, laying aside the fact that it would ruin the meter ;) , why do you think "reconsider" would be more appropriate, ktd? I thought "consider" was just the right word, especially given that the poem ends with him concluding that he does not need to change or reconsider his course. I'd be interested to hear what you were seeing here though.Quote:
This poem is a good poem. Shouldn't the beginning of this poem start as, When I reconsider how my light is spent...?
Anyway, it is indeed a good poem. The last line is deservedly famous, and one of those I've found has stuck with me. That opening play on "spent" (as both using the light of life/talent and the light being used up or extinguished by his blindness) always gets to me somehow. Anyway, more comments later when I'm not so tired. :yawnb:
For those who may not know, John Milton went blind in mid life and this poem is a reaction to it. "how my light is spent," "dark word," "light denied" are all references to his blindness.Quote:
When I consider how my light is spent by John Milton
When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask; But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
Yup, this is a sonnet right? I was just thinking about the word 'consider' in the sense that one must consider how they will spend their light, and then, when the light is spent, is when one can 'reconsider' about how that light was spent. I'm not suggesting that there is a changed mind-set in the poem, but that there is a sense of reconsideration whether his 'light' was spent properly, according to himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
P.S. This is the new me: more inclined to agreeing and less agruementative. Tell me if you guys like the new me?
Yup, that there's a sonnet. :nod: I get where you were going now. He's considering how his light "is" spent, though, not how it "was" spent, so the consideration is for his circumstances in the present rather than strictly a review of what he did in the past. The spending he is doing is ongoing now. I do think he is playing a little with tense in this particular word, since if you take the meaning of "spent" as extinguished, referring to the "light" of his sight, then it is referring to something that is past. Yet even in this reading, he's still alluding to his current condition as one whose light "is spent." I think the poem is not so much about looking back over the past as it is about looking at where he is now, how he is spending his time and what his condition is, and wondering if he should modify his actions in the future. It's not that the past isn't there (certainly the urgency of having half a life spent is part of the poet's motivations), but I don't think he's trying to rehash what's gone before as much as he's trying to consider what to do now. That is, at least the way I have always read the poem.Quote:
Yup, this is a sonnet right? I was just thinking about the word 'consider' in the sense that one must consider how they will spend their light, and then, when the light is spent, is when one can 'reconsider' about how that light was spent. I'm not suggesting that there is a changed mind-set in the poem, but that there is a sense of reconsideration whether his 'light' was spent properly, according to himself.
Well, we look forward to getting to know the new you. Seems a good sort so far. :)Quote:
P.S. This is the new me: more inclined to agreeing and less agruementative. Tell me if you guys like the new me?
That's fine. Sometimes it's not a bad thing to be argumetative. However it can grow old if it's all the time. Plus the person you used to argue with the most is no longer on lit net.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
Point taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
But by saying 'When I consider how my light is spent,' this makes me think that at this point in his life, 'ere half my days,' is the first time he considers how his light will be spent; The first time he is thinking that actions may determine the outcome of his afterlife.
There is also something happening with the question and answer being displayed in the poem. Two entities, the I and the Soul, seem to be at odds as far as purpose in this world. Who is doing the asking and who is doing the answering? Is he talking to himself? I don't see any hinted evidence of God's existence in this poem except where Milton seems to convince himself that God must exist.
Well, there's actually no reason that "consider" has to mean it's the first time he's considering it. "When I consider" refers to when he reflects or meditates upon the state of his life without really specifying if this is a one time or a frequent occurence.Quote:
Point taken.
But by saying 'When I consider how my light is spent,' this makes me think that at this point in his life, 'ere half my days,' is the first time he considers how his light will be spent; The first time he is thinking that actions may determine the outcome of his afterlife.
That said, I understand your point, that it might give the effect of this being a new matter of consideration for him. I found it interesting that it was this question of time and tense that you focused in on first as a central part of the poem. Let us accept for a moment that, as you say, choosing to use the word "consider" alone--rather than something like "reconsider" or "consider once more"--gives a feeling of him coming to this question for the first time. That seems to me a fairly sensitive reading of the poem, which I think points to a large part of his concern here, that he is considering big questions about the way to live his life and his relationship to God for the first time in light of (so to speak) his recent blindness. He must now consider, for the first time perhaps, his life and actions in terms of his newly changed circumstances. In that first line, "When I consider how my light is spent," he conveys all of this. He is both describing the sorts of questions he's asking about how he is spending his life and, at the same time, describing the new circumstance of his blindness which has lead him to consider these things. That "spent" conveys both ongoing activity and the hoplessness of what is ended before even half his life is over. The line encapsulates a proccess of recognizing what has gone, realizing what has been thwarted in his future plans with that passing, taking inventory of his present situation, and beginning to consider plans for how to react to the whole mess of past (both literal past and hopes for the future that have passed) and present circumstances. I have always found the amount compacted into that single line simply amazing.
Since this is something of a seperate question, I figured I'd give it a seperate post. First off, I wasn't sure where you were seeing that "Milton seems to convince himself that God must exist." I thought the existence of God was pretty much taken for granted in this poem. I also wasn't sure if the two entities are exactly the "I" and the "soul." There are lots of poetic dialogues in this period describing a debate between a man and his soul, but I wasn't really picking up on that kind of conflict here (I'm willing to hear an elaboration in favor of such a reading though). I certainly do agree, however, that the question of voice--who is speaking and to whom--is probably worth looking at in this poem, as I think it often is in Milton's poetry. Maybe I'll outline how I read it and then you can respond with your take.Quote:
There is also something happening with the question and answer being displayed in the poem. Two entities, the I and the Soul, seem to be at odds as far as purpose in this world. Who is doing the asking and who is doing the answering? Is he talking to himself? I don't see any hinted evidence of God's existence in this poem except where Milton seems to convince himself that God must exist.
In the first quatrain the speaker seems to address the reader and/or is speaks to himself in the manner of a soliloquay.
Line five contains the first direct reference to God as "my Maker." The speaker contemplates presenting his case before his "Maker."
I think lines six through eight the most ambiguous in the poem in terms of voice. The original version does not contain the quotation marks around "Doth God exact day labour, light denied," that appear in the version presented here. I've heard that line attributed both to God--who is chiding the speaker of the poem by asking this rhetorical question as one to which the answer should be obvious--and to the speaker himself, who presumably asks the question in earnest. I've always favored the latter reading, but would be interested if there are any strong opinions on the subject among those here.
Line eight introduces the personified figure of "patience" who "replies" beginning in line nine by speaking on God's behalf to describe or remind the initial speaker of the poem about what God requires and does not require of him. I'm presuming it is the voice of patience which continues until the poem's conclusion. In a sense, since patience is obviously something within the initial speaker, I suppose you can say that he is speaking to himself.
The final voice in the poem, which is of some importance as to what Milton is responding to and what he is basing the authority of "patience" in speaking for God, is the voice of biblical scripture. The gospel of Mathew in particular seems to have been on his mind in this poem. The first six lines allude to the parable of the talents from Matthew 25:14-30, and the "mild yoke" of line eleven is doubtless inspired from Matt. 11:30, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Also, in line seven, he may be alluding to the parable of the vineyard workers in Matt. 20:1-16, in which all workers are paid the same wages whether they labour a whole or half day. I've also read glosses that point to John 9:4 in reference to that line, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." I don't know if there are any biblical scholars out there that might be able to suggest something especially appropriate about Matthew that seems to be drawing him to allude to that book especially? It might be interesting to consider.
I can't take the stand that an actual God exist all along in Milton's view-even before this poem was written. Going back to Virgil's reference that Milton went blind halfway through his life, it's not hard to contemplate that traumatic events like this or nearing old age would cause Milton to search for a better reason for the reasons why he went blind, or will eventually die of old age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
There is only one question asked in the poem and one answer given:
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask; But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
It doesn't seem right that God would refer to himself in the third person. So then who are we left with? Milton mentions the I, the soul, the Maker, patience, and if we exclude God, then we're only left with the first two.
There is no sense of the 'chiding' voice being directly from God because it is the speaker who is asking the question.Quote:
I think lines six through eight the most ambiguous in the poem in terms of voice. The original version does not contain the quotation marks around "Doth God exact day labour, light denied," that appear in the version presented here. I've heard that line attributed both to God--who is chiding the speaker of the poem by asking this rhetorical question as one to which the answer should be obvious--and to the speaker himself, who presumably asks the question in earnest. I've always favored the latter reading, but would be interested if there are any strong opinions on the subject among those here.
though my soul more bent/To serve therewith my Maker,Quote:
Line eight introduces the personified figure of "patience" who "replies" beginning in line nine by speaking on God's behalf to describe or remind the initial speaker of the poem about what God requires and does not require of him. I'm presuming it is the voice of patience which continues until the poem's conclusion. In a sense, since patience is obviously something within the initial speaker, I suppose you can say that he is speaking to himself.
Yes. And in these lines it is the soul that is 'bent to serve the "Maker,"' as 'patience' seems to be responding on behalf of God. We have a strong parallel here.
This voice only seems activated when spoken.Quote:
The final voice in the poem, which is of some importance as to what Milton is responding to and what he is basing the authority of "patience" in speaking for God, is the voice of biblical scripture. The gospel of Mathew in particular seems to have been on his mind in this poem. The first six lines allude to the parable of the talents from Matthew 25:14-30, and the "mild yoke" of line eleven is doubtless inspired from Matt. 11:30, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Also, in line seven, he may be alluding to the parable of the vineyard workers in Matt. 20:1-16, in which all workers are paid the same wages whether they labour a whole or half day. I've also read glosses that point to John 9:4 in reference to that line, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." I don't know if there are any biblical scholars out there that might be able to suggest something especially appropriate about Matthew that seems to be drawing him to allude to that book especially? It might be interesting to consider.
ktd
Are you questioning Milton's senserity in his religious belief? I am not a Milton scholar, but I have never heard anyone question it, and given his frequent religious subjects I would find it hard to believe that he does not believe in God.
I don't have the time right now to jump into the text (I'll do that later) for a close analysis, but I would summarize the poem in this way: The narrator asks God why has He allowed him to go blind when He has also given him such great talent to serve and now cannot be realized; and God responds, I don't care about your talent, that's not the service I require.
No. It's just a question and had to pose as if I were reading a work by an miscellaneous author.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I'm not sure it is God answering at all.Quote:
I don't have the time right now to jump into the text (I'll do that later) for a close analysis, but I would summarize the poem in this way: The narrator asks God why has He allowed him to go blind when He has also given him such great talent to serve and now cannot be realized; and God responds, I don't care about your talent, that's not the service I require.
But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
Do you think God would answer in the form of third person; then switch over to such phrases as 'his mild yoke' and 'him best'? This just seems very odd to me.
I'm afraid you're going to have to work long and hard to convince me that Milton is questioning God's existence in this poem. Of course it would make sense that Milton might have a period of doubt after going blind, but that simply isn't what's being described in this poem. You might look at the opening of his Samson Agonistes, which is pretty clearly a description of a struggle to maintain faith in God in the face of blindness. Laying aside the fact that, from my other readings of this poet I know that he's got a remarkably deep rooted faith in his religion, I simply don't see the evidence for doubt in the lines of this poem.Quote:
I can't take the stand that an actual God exist all along in Milton's view-even before this poem was written. Going back to Virgil's reference that Milton went blind halfway through his life, it's not hard to contemplate that traumatic events like this or nearing old age would cause Milton to search for a better reason for the reasons why he went blind, or will eventually die of old age.
The central question in the poem, I think we'll all agree, is "Does God exact day labour, light denied?" (which, incidently, I entirely agree with you is spoken by Milton). This question follows several lines making clear allusions to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30. The parable tells the story of a master who goes off on a trip and leaves a certain number of talents (money) with each of his servants for safe keeping. Two servants, who got four or five talents each, invest them and double their money, but another servant who only was given one talent hides it for fear of loosing everything. When the lord (master) comes back he praises the good investors and chides the servant who hid his talent for not having received interest on it by investing it with usury. The parable concludes with the order to "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness," with obvious parallels to be drawn in the way mankind will someday be judged according to the use of their "talents" in life.
Milton (who obviously puns on "talent" here to also mean his literary talent) is wary of being like the "unprofitable servant," since his blindness forces him to hide "that one talent which is death to hide" and makes it "lodged with [him] useless" (possibly a pun on the "usury" referred to in the parable), despite the fact that his soul is more "bent" (inclined) to serve his "Maker" with that talent. He is afraid that he will meet the fate of the servant in the parable when God, like the servant's master, returns to chide him. Thus the question about "day labour" he's building up to is coming out of a concern for whether he is serving God sufficiently, and how he is best able to serve Him. He wonders if God will expect "day labour" or a whole day's work equal to that of other men, when he has denied Milton the light of day in his blindness. I'll grant you that there may be some anger and resentment present in the question, in that he's upset at the thought that God might demand the same work out of him now that he's at a disadvantage and not sure he can perform that work. He's frustrated by inaction, and concerned about serving God's purpose sufficiently, but I hardly see how you can make the leap to him questioning God's existence from that. I really don't see how you can read this poem without Milton believing in God from the start.
Why don't we address the last half of the poem and your concerns about who's doing the answering a little later, since I think the first portion is probably enough on the table for now? (Not to mention I've got a major presentation to prepare for this afternoon and have got to run ;) ).
I'm not in the business of trying to convince people. :D Good, I don't think the poem's major conern is trying to search for whether God exist or not either. Getting back to what I think the poem is about, it seems to be a concern for Milton whether or not the way he lived, living, going to live is going to affect the God views him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
-I agree with this by the way.Quote:
That "spent" conveys both ongoing activity and the hoplessness of what is ended before even half his life is over. The line encapsulates a proccess of recognizing what has gone, realizing what has been thwarted in his future plans with that passing, taking inventory of his present situation, and beginning to consider plans for how to react to the whole mess of past (both literal past and hopes for the future that have passed) and present circumstances. I have always found the amount compacted into that single line simply amazing.
It was just an observation. He is convinced that God exist is he not? And I still DON'T see any evidence of God's existence in the poem because there is nowhere in the poem that God speaks to him.Quote:
The central question in the poem, I think we'll all agree, is "Does God exact day labour, light denied?" (which, incidently, I entirely agree with you is spoken by Milton). This question follows several lines making clear allusions to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30. The parable tells the story of a master who goes off on a trip and leaves a certain number of talents (money) with each of his servants for safe keeping. Two servants, who got four or five talents each, invest them and double their money, but another servant who only was given one talent hides it for fear of loosing everything. When the lord (master) comes back he praises the good investors and chides the servant who hid his talent for not having received interest on it by investing it with usury. The parable concludes with the order to "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness," with obvious parallels to be drawn in the way mankind will someday be judged according to the use of their "talents" in life.
Milton (who obviously puns on "talent" here to also mean his literary talent) is wary of being like the "unprofitable servant," since his blindness forces him to hide "that one talent which is death to hide" and makes it "lodged with [him] useless" (possibly a pun on the "usury" referred to in the parable), despite the fact that his soul is more "bent" (inclined) to serve his "Maker" with that talent. He is afraid that he will meet the fate of the servant in the parable when God, like the servant's master, returns to chide him. Thus the question about "day labour" he's building up to is coming out of a concern for whether he is serving God sufficiently, and how he is best able to serve Him. He wonders if God will expect "day labour" or a whole day's work equal to that of other men, when he has denied Milton the light of day in his blindness. I'll grant you that there may be some anger and resentment present in the question, in that he's upset at the thought that God might demand the same work out of him now that he's at a disadvantage and not sure he can perform that work. He's frustrated by inaction, and concerned about serving God's purpose sufficiently, but I hardly see how you can make the leap to him questioning God's existence from that. I really don't see how you can read this poem without Milton believing in God from the start.
Who says I'm not?Quote:
I really don't see how you can read this poem without Milton believing in God from the start.
What would you like to address? :confused:Quote:
Why don't we address the last half of the poem and your concerns about who's doing the answering a little later, since I think the first portion is probably enough on the table for now? (Not to mention I've got a major presentation to prepare for this afternoon and have got to run ;) ).
Just some observations on the form. It's a Petrarchan sonnet with rhyme scheme abba abba cdecde. What I always look for in a sonnet is to see how the poet breaks up his thought. Typical of Milton, and unlike Shakespeare, his thoughts overflow the barriers of the form. Normally a poet would have an element of thought for the first quatrain, a parallel or developing element of thought for the second quatrain, and for the sestet a contrasting element of thought that would conclude the poem. The two quatrains really make up one element of thought and Milton starts the contrasting thought in the last line of the second quatrain "But patience..." What is interesting to me about from that line to the 13th line is how frequent he spills over sentence fragments into the next line: "to prevent / That mummur", "Who best / Bear his", "His state / Is kingly." Of course almost every line is enjambed, but the ones I just listed seem like goes out of his way to purposely spill over. the are such short phrases that sure he could have worked the lines differently. It gives the sestet a different feel than the quatrain but it also sets up the concluding line's finality and gravity: "They also serve who only stand and wait."